Staging a personal "intervention" for a troubled young woman

[Roxanne Appleby]

"Leah," a young woman I care about very much and have some moral authority with has gotten involved with a group of corrupt people who will destroy her if she continues the association. They have taken her credit card, money, cell phone, and almost her car. The destroyers are members of an inner city underclass, they live by mooching, and are best described as individuals who live in the "eternal present," with no sense of the past, and no plans or hopes for the future.

Leah is actually a brilliant philosopher, and has unbelievable intellectual talent. However, she suffers from depression (takes drugs for that), and the human organ that provides motivation is either broken or just not there. She has been attending post-grad classes in a major university (located in an inner city, thus the underclass contact), but rather than "dominating" the philosophy department and "setting the world on fire" with accomplishments she has instead just been doing the minimum to get by. She spends most of her time on a philosophy bulletin board in futile internet discourse with people who hate her ideas. (Imagine someone who spends all their time trying to change people's minds on one of our political threads here – I grimly LOL).

I used to browbeat her about not doing real work in her field. I now realize that she is "broken" and the lack of motivation thing is not her fault. Her academic career will probably end after this semester, because it's pointless to continue. Her parents have been paying the bills, but now realize their money is being wasted. I actually think Leah may be happier if she and those around her realize "it's not going to happen" for her as an intellectual, and remove the pressure to make it happen.

I speculate that given her psychological problems she gets some comfort from associating in the real world with those underclass people who live in the eternal present, even though her association with them will destroy her. At this moment she is still delusional about these people, speaking of them as if they are her "friends," but given time and distance she is smart enough to realize how foolish she has been. One weekend is probably not enough time, but I believe when the semester ends and she is away from that environment for a few weeks she will see it.

I have very sadly concluded that Leah is essentially a vulnerable adult who will have to be taken care of for the rest of her life.

Here is my question: After it was essentially stolen for a week by one of those people Leah has her car back is coming to stay with me for the weekend. What should I do? I've never been in this position before.

 

[entitled]

i would suggest showing her the possibilities of the future. It may start a rift, but sit her down over a cup of coffee/tea/whatever, and give her a hard love talk.

Explain to her your concern as an outsider looking in, and as a friend. Don't make any suggestions as to what she should do but give her something to think about. Show her how the rest of the world works in comparison to her inner city 'friends' and ensure she sees the difference.

 

[cloudy]

Be open and listen. That may be what she needs most of all.

Bless you for caring.

 

[Norajane]

I have very sadly concluded that Leah is essentially a vulnerable adult who will have to be taken care of for the rest of her life.

Here is my question: After it was essentially stolen for a week by one of those people Leah has her car back is coming to stay with me for the weekend. What should I do? I've never been in this position before.

Perhaps you could suggest some ideas for getting a job. Drifting in academia does make one lose touch with the real world, and it doesn't sound like she's getting any satisfaction from it. Perhaps being able to hold down a job would give her some measure of satsifaction, which could boost her self-esteem and motivation level.

She's probably getting a lot of validation from hanging out with those friends of hers, and probably not much judgment. And if her friends are into drugs, she could be taking them as well...pot is notorious for killing motivation. That might be a subject you want to raise with her.

 

[impressive]

I realize that you care & have what you perceive to be her best interests at heart, but ultimately, it's up to her. If she does not believe that she is "troubled," then your "intervention" is just "interference" in a life not your own.

State your concerns -- once -- and your desire & willingness to help, and then just be there to catch her if/when she jumps/falls.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

Roxanne, i will email you as always. For now, know that you are doing what you can within a very complicated situation. You're amazing - do you know that? No really. Stop wanting to reply to this post, and think about my words for a minute please.

Listen. Be still...

You are amazing. I know that, and she knows that and so do you. Sit with that for a while, and carry it around with you like a little pebble in your pocket. Take it out and roll it around in the palm of your hand when you need something to hold onto.

You're amazing.

 

[Pure]

i believe that Rand argues that, unless it's extremely 'low cost,' that you should neither help nor be friends with those who do not share your values.

along the same lines, you are essentially saying, 'how should i protect someone who does not protect themselves.' given that she's not a child, it's not unreasonable to assume that your 'protection' is--despite your good intentions--part of the problem. (or will be, soon).

in any case the 'scheduling' of one's life can't be set by another. if she needs to work as a waitress for a year before taking up philosophy again, so be it.

if she 'needs' to have all her goods stolen, to re evaluate 'friends', again so be it; and buying new ones for her, for example, prevents 'life' from teaching her something through its consequences.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

i believe that Rand argues that, unless it's extremely 'low cost,' that you should neither help nor be friends with those who do not share your values.

along the same lines, you are essentially saying, 'how should i protect someone who does not protect themselves.' given that she's not a child, it's not unreasonable to assume that your 'protection' is--despite your good intentions--part of the problem. (or will be, soon).

in any case the 'scheduling' of one's life can't be set by another. if she needs to work as a waitress for a year before taking up philosophy again, so be it.

if she 'needs' to have all her goods stolen, to re evaluate 'friends', again so be it; and buying new ones for her, for example, prevents 'life' from teaching her something through its consequences.

Pure, you're gonna love the irony of this: Leah is a hard core objectivist! That fact just emphasizes the mental illness component of this problem, and why I have no intention of browbeating her. In some important way Leah is a child despite her chonological age.

 

[Anniejustagirl]

I realize that you care & have what you perceive to be her best interests at heart, but ultimately, it's up to her. If she does not believe that she is "troubled," then your "intervention" is just "interference" in a life not your own.

State your concerns -- once -- and your desire & willingness to help, and then just be there to catch her if/when she jumps/falls.

If i may... i have to agree with imp...

my daughter was in a similar yet somewhat different circumstance. She took her self-esteem from 'friends' that were not. She gave and got nothing in return, but she did not see it that way.

In my experience... you do Not put down her friends. You let her know your concerns without beating her over the proverbial head with them. You let her know that you are available to her... always... and make sure that she has a way to contact you.

Go gently with her and with yourself... Just be there.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Everything you describe sounds to me like a classical case of long-term clinical depression, and whatever she's taking for it obviously isn't working. The lack of motivation, the passivity and hopelessness, and drifting down to hang out with people who pose no emotional threat are all indicative of depression. The depressive feels so worthless that he or she won't even fight for their possessions. She probably feels like she deserves to lose them.

If that's the case, there's really not much you can do for her. Depression is an emotional illness and can't be argued or reasoned away any more than diabetes can. You might ask her whether she's talked to her prescribing doctor about changing meds, but I'm not all that sanguine about medication in something like this. It sounds to me like she's been depressed for a long time, maybe all her life, and the meds are best with acute onset depression.

But you never know. If she knows you well enough to come and stay with you, she probably already has some idea of how you're going to react and what you're going to say and she apparently doesn't mind it. I think in cases like this you should just be who you are and not worry about trying to outsmart or outpysch her. There really is no magic bullet or technique. Honesty and compassion are always best.

 

[dizzylia]

Such a tough situation. She sounds very much like where my sister was a year or two ago. I tried reasoning, I tried browbeating, I even tried pleading. In the end, I just got her to talk. I'd go out of my way just to see how she felt, and what she was thinking, and I left the rest alone. She gradually came out of it by doing her own reasoning, browbeating and pleading with herself.

Now, I know not every case is the same, and I know my family and I were lucky my sister (another Leah, actually) was able to come out of it like she did.

However, being a shoulder to lean on and an ear to listen is far from a bad idea. As already mentioned, she likely already knows or suspects your views on her "friends", so the fact she's coming to you anyway could indicate a specific need to talk to you.

I don't know if that was helpful or not. Coherence does not seem to be by best skill tonight. My last bit of advice, however, is to resist sharing your views and opinions unless she asks for them. Let her know you're listening, let her know you care. I'm sure you already have, but people struggling with depression can always use a little more reassurance.

Best of luck.


-dizzy

 

[Rope64]

A speculation: maybe your friend has been protected too much from running into walls. What I mean is, our society comes largely pre-packaged, such that if you're reasonably intelligent you can get every material thing that any sane person could possibly want without ever trying very hard. So you end up with people who have never had a real challenge to their abilities in their entire lives -- how could they not be depressed?

See if you can find with her a meaningful point at which she might step off of the beaten trail and into the jungle; right now she has maybe taken a meaningless point of departure. As a first step, it's usually a good idea to fast, just to be reminded of what it is to be hungry.

 

[SeaCat]

Roxanne,

I don't envy you, I have been there myself and it's not an easy place.

There is one fundamental truth you have to understand. You can't help Leah if she doesn't want help. Trying to force her to your viewpoint will only create a rift between the two of you. The most you can do is show her what you think is going on while letting her know that you will be there if she decides she needs help. If she is as smart as you feel she is then she will realize what is happening to her. (Sometimes this takes time so you have to be patient.)

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Cat

 

[amicus]

"Leah," a young woman I care about very much and have some moral authority with has gotten involved with a group of corrupt people who will destroy her if she continues the association. They have taken her credit card, money, cell phone, and almost her car. The destroyers are members of an inner city underclass, they live by mooching, and are best described as individuals who live in the "eternal present," with no sense of the past, and no plans or hopes for the future.

Leah is actually a brilliant philosopher, and has unbelievable intellectual talent. However, she suffers from depression (takes drugs for that), and the human organ that provides motivation is either broken or just not there. She has been attending post-grad classes in a major university (located in an inner city, thus the underclass contact), but rather than "dominating" the philosophy department and "setting the world on fire" with accomplishments she has instead just been doing the minimum to get by. She spends most of her time on a philosophy bulletin board in futile internet discourse with people who hate her ideas. (Imagine someone who spends all their time trying to change people's minds on one of our political threads here – I grimly LOL).(ahem)

I used to browbeat her about not doing real work in her field. I now realize that she is "broken" and the lack of motivation thing is not her fault. Her academic career will probably end after this semester, because it's pointless to continue. Her parents have been paying the bills, but now realize their money is being wasted. I actually think Leah may be happier if she and those around her realize "it's not going to happen" for her as an intellectual, and remove the pressure to make it happen.

I speculate that given her psychological problems she gets some comfort from associating in the real world with those underclass people who live in the eternal present, even though her association with them will destroy her. At this moment she is still delusional about these people, speaking of them as if they are her "friends," but given time and distance she is smart enough to realize how foolish she has been. One weekend is probably not enough time, but I believe when the semester ends and she is away from that environment for a few weeks she will see it.

I have very sadly concluded that Leah is essentially a vulnerable adult who will have to be taken care of for the rest of her life.

Here is my question: After it was essentially stolen for a week by one of those people Leah has her car back is coming to stay with me for the weekend. What should I do? I've never been in this position before.

~~~~~~~~~

From a later post you mentioned she was an 'Objectivist'...

You also mentioned she was 'young', but not how young.

My thought is that instead of defining 'objectivist' in the normal manner, as you most likely do, try to understand a person searching for reason and logic in an unreasonable and illogical world.

Also imagine that person being somewhat less that fully capable of resolving all the apparent contradictions, especially in an university environment, a 'liberal' environment pressing in inexorably from all directions.

I wonder if a revisit to the theme of 'Anthem', even a reading of a few selected lines, might rekindle the spark of individualism and self worth?

Perhaps a session of music, a few pieces of your selection, that reflect the magnificence of man, the depth and width of human emotion through music. I have no idea where you are, but a walk at night along an ocean beach, or high in the mountains or deep in a desert or even the top of a skyscraper to view the impressionistic vision of a modern city late at night.

As many said, I think we can not really 'help' another person with a life vision, but, sometimes, sharing your own can say things without the actual words.

I do sincerely wish you the best in your attempt.

amicus...

 

[SlickTony]

Roxanne, she sounds like she has a developmental disorder. Has she ever been evaluated for such?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxanne, she sounds like she has a developmental disorder. Has she ever been evaluated for such?

Hey Tony -
What is a developmental disorder? Please post or PM me - that has the ring of truth for this case.

Thanks,

R.A.

 

[hyulhyulhyul]

The problem with trying to help someone you see is in desperate need of help is that until the time that they reach the point where they desperately want help, there is little that you can do for them other than hold their hand or encourage them to take their medication if medication is needed.

We may all have known someone during our lifetimes whose family and friends begged them to stop smoking before their next heart attack killed them and they stubbornly refused to quit until it finally did kill them. Telling someone that they have a problem and they need to do something about it in extreme cases like your friend's accomplishes nothing.

People have an amazing ability to rationalize just about anything to avoid confronting their problems. One of the sad things about people in your friend's situation is that they often have no idea what caused them to be the way they are, and haven't a clue how to change themselves.

Self esteem issues usually have a root cause that is locked away deeply in their subconscious. In causing the problems we see manifested in people such as your friend, our non-critical subconscious is actually trying to help them.

In the case of a morbidly obese young woman, for example, more often than not, she experienced either rape, molestation, or incestual impositions at a very early age and has no conscious memory of them.

The subconscious remembers everything. It remembers that uncle who used to tell her how pretty she was when she sat on his lap at the age of three and put his finger in her little pussy or had her play with his "little buddy".

Her subconscous mind relates "pretty" and "attractive" to bad things that happened to her and tries to protect her by causing her to eat so much and grow so fat that no one will ever be attracted to her or call her pretty again. She is helpless to resist the impulses that her subconscious gives her to finish that box of cookies or the remaining portions of that delicious pie.

Different people respond in different ways to the same sets of stimuli. Some might be totally unaffected. Others may exhibit antisocial behavior. Still others, suffer from low self esteem and lack of worth.

I'm not saying that your friend was raped, molested, or exploited by a family member as a child. But the chances are good that some negative imprint or series of imprints during her childhood may have played a major role in causing her to be as she is today.

Unless her problem is organic in origin, it's possible that she could benefit from hypnotherapy if she were to see someone of the caliber of Gerald Kein or Calvin Banyan. They work miracles with people having all kinds of debilitating mental or emotional problems almost every day.

Again, though, unless and until she desperately wants help, not even they can help her. Until the time, if it ever comes, that she reaches out for help, probably the best thing you can do for her is to let her know that you will be her lifeline and that no matter how low she sinks or how depressed or despondent she may become, you will always be there to to hold her hand and to keep her from going over the edge of some dark abyss that may be lurking there, beckoning her.

Good luck to you both.