Spelllllllzzz.

[English Lady]

I was lucky enough to be born with some stuff I learned and saw before people taught me I shouldn't see it or learn it. I knew somehow to keep my mouth shut. However, when I met people who didn't have the same learning basis that I did later on...some of this stuff comes through trauma if you don't come upon in naturally, so it can be associated with the trauma. I've also met people who knew and saw things in their youth that they convinced themselves not to see any more, and they're saddened by it.

I'd have to say that in my experience...having it be a natural part of me rather than having it thrust upon me....is a much better existence.

I think Jesus was a mystic who expressed so many amazing things in simple allegory. I don't see any reason why the teachings of Christ aren't required learning. And his words really don't require faith. Just go...try what he said to try. It works. It's enlightening.

But when the church and other traditions are set up as a "competitive business" as it has been historically, not everyone appreciates that distinction.

That's why I'm not a fan of religion. It is, as you say (at least in part)a business and I don't like that. Religion may try to do the good stuff, but the minute you start to organise faith, things are going to get a bit sticky.

I think what you say is right, you don't need faith to pay attention to what Jesus did and said, the Faith bit comes in at the whole death, ressurection, forgiveness of sins, our ticket to Heaven stuff. For me, it's the faith bit which really counts but I'm sure people can get lots out of just Jesus's teachings...though i don't, personally, believe the two are seperable... but that's just me

 

[Recidiva]

That's why I'm not a fan of religion. It is, as you say (at least in part)a business and I don't like that. Religion may try to do the good stuff, but the minute you start to organise faith, things are going to get a bit sticky.

I think what you say is right, you don't need faith to pay attention to what Jesus did and said, the Faith bit comes in at the whole death, ressurection, forgiveness of sins, our ticket to Heaven stuff. For me, it's the faith bit which really counts but I'm sure people can get lots out of just Jesus's teachings...though i don't, personally, believe the two are seperable... but that's just me

For me the strength of Jesus was that he was a man. And he chose a spiritual life. It has more strength for me that way. And I don't need to be promised eternity or heaven. I need to choose to be a good person, regardless of reward or punishment promised. I believe the example of Jesus being tempted with promises and turning them down is significant.

That's an example to me. I don't need reincarnation or miracles or promises. Just the example of an extraordinary man.

 

[English Lady]

For me the strength of Jesus was that he was a man. And he chose a spiritual life. It has more strength for me that way. And I don't need to be promised eternity or heaven. I need to choose to be a good person, regardless of reward or punishment promised. I believe the example of Jesus being tempted with promises and turning them down is significant.

That's an example to me. I don't need reincarnation or miracles or promises. Just the example of an extraordinary man.

And I like that! I think Christians often don't dwell on the fact Jesus was a man enough. I think we get wrapped up in the supernatural when alot of the lessons to be learnt are on a completely human level, well I kind of arrogently say we when I should be saying "I" really.

You know, I think I can 100% honestly say that I'd be a Christian even without the eternal life bit. To feel this loved, to have this connection to have such unending joy in my life, that is reward enough for my faith.

 

[Recidiva]

And I like that! I think Christians often don't dwell on the fact Jesus was a man enough. I think we get wrapped up in the supernatural when alot of the lessons to be learnt are on a completely human level, well I kind of arrogently say we when I should be saying "I" really.

You know, I think I can 100% honestly say that I'd be a Christian even without the eternal life bit. To feel this loved, to have this connection to have such unending joy in my life, that is reward enough for my faith.

There are a lot of ways to that connection, I believe, through many faiths, many different mystics, many different paths.

I think it's that connection that inspires spirituality. Since it's so powerful and difficult to describe or reach, it's shrouded in an endless number of metaphors and paths.

But many are going to the same place, and the mystics of many religions resemble each other when they describe the landmarks of what it's like when you manage to connect.

I don't think any one way or path or symbol or metaphor is right. Whatever gets you there, and inspires you to maintain it.

 

[English Lady]

There are a lot of ways to that connection, I believe, through many faiths, many different mystics, many different paths.

I think it's that connection that inspires spirituality. Since it's so powerful and difficult to describe or reach, it's shrouded in an endless number of metaphors and paths.

But many are going to the same place, and the mystics of many religions resemble each other when they describe the landmarks of what it's like when you manage to connect.

I don't think any one way or path or symbol or metaphor is right. Whatever gets you there, and inspires you to maintain it.

Sometimes I wish I believed that, it'd make my life much more simple, but I don't. I don't apologise for that but also I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe.

It's just an integral bit of what I believe, that Jesus is the only way, but then I'd never force what I believe on someone else, ever. And I'm always open to questioning my faith, I think that's really important, and I am amazed by how much I'm stil learning.

 

[Recidiva]

Sometimes I wish I believed that, it'd make my life much more simple, but I don't. I don't apologise for that but also I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe.

It's just an integral bit of what I believe, that Jesus is the only way, but then I'd never force what I believe on someone else, ever. And I'm always open to questioning my faith, I think that's really important, and I am amazed by how much I'm stil learning.

No, that's cool, and I get it. I've been in my own place exactly like that. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, just that I'm choosing my path carefully. The best I can do is describe where I am and where I've been and share the landmarks. Again, if I think of Jesus as a man who could obtain wisdom in his time and place, it's available to everyone, if they connect.

 

[English Lady]

No, that's cool, and I get it. I've been in my own place exactly like that. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, just that I'm choosing my path carefully. The best I can do is describe where I am and where I've been and share the landmarks. Again, if I think of Jesus as a man who could obtain wisdom in his time and place, it's available to everyone, if they connect.

It so is a journey, faith that is. Probably why the analogy is made so often. I think it's dangerous to NOT be open to new ideas, to not constantly question beliefs. I've really enjoyed talking faith with you

 

[Recidiva]

It so is a journey, faith that is. Probably why the analogy is made so often. I think it's dangerous to NOT be open to new ideas, to not constantly question beliefs. I've really enjoyed talking faith with you

My pleasure, one of my favorite subjects! Any time, may your path rise before you and have one of those gentle incline thingies going for it

 

[English Lady]

My pleasure, one of my favorite subjects! Any time, may your path rise before you and have one of those gentle incline thingies going for it

And the same to you! *grins* And may the weather be pleasant, not to hot and not to cold and definitely not wet

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

It's a metaphor. Rather like trying to describe a color to a blind person. If you don't have the sense, of course you can't see it.

That just seems very convenient to me, and robs the enterprise of anything like reliability.

Of course, telling everyone else they're delusional because you can't do it is also arrogant.

Similarly, telling people they are delusional because they can't experience what purport as real is sort of arrogant, by itself. But then, I never was a fan of metaphysical elitisms.

Perhaps you've defined "open mind," but I would not call that "faith." I'd call it "convenient."

I don't know about that. My faith is defined by parameters, there are central tenets and it is not a wholly inclusive experience. It does exlude things--this would not be terribly different than what I think most people mean when they say "faith". If I had direct evidence that contradited my faith, and I totally ignored it without reason or rationale... I would be abandoning what it meant to have a mind and participate in being wise. If we found evidence of life on other planets, my faith (should it be such that Earth is the only planet with life) would need to be abandoned in favor of something new that takes into account what more is known about the nature of the universe... if it is not so abandoned for the new, I am pretty much denying the language of the real.
I would say that's not entirely convenient.

Oooh and whilst I'm in this questioning frame of mind (EL really shouldn't stay up after midnight) Joe -why would beliving in magic actually mean you couldn't keep your Christian faith or even why can't you believe magic exsists and be a Christian anyways?

I would have to define magic, to answer that.

If we are to talk about magic and a specific and meaningful event--we are talking about the willful defiance of nature for, specifically, supernatural occurance. The willful part is important.

If magic lacks all willful enaction, I don't think we're talking about magic anymore. We'd be talking about coincidence or chance or prayer or something better defined elsewhere. But, willfully altering reality or enacting a supernatural event very much defied what I believe is possible for people to do.

My faith, then, is such that for the significance of, say, the divinity of Christ... it must be the case that people are not able to willfully alter or enact supernatural events. For people to be able to do that would mean that my faith, as it were, were metaphysically inaccurate--and were I to have evidence of that, the one paradigm would have to give way to the other, or I'd have to blindly and ignorantly avoid experential truths.

 

[Recidiva]

That just seems very convenient to me, and robs the enterprise of anything like reliability.

Similarly, telling people they are delusional because they can't experience what purport as real is sort of arrogant, by itself. But then, I never was a fan of metaphysical elitisms.

I'm not sure where you get elitism or me calling someone delusional in what I'm writing, but since I guess you did...I'll quit writing now.

 

[English Lady]

I would have to define magic, to answer that.

If we are to talk about magic and a specific and meaningful event--we are talking about the willful defiance of nature for, specifically, supernatural occurance. The willful part is important.

If magic lacks all willful enaction, I don't think we're talking about magic anymore. We'd be talking about coincidence or chance or prayer or something better defined elsewhere. But, willfully altering reality or enacting a supernatural event very much defied what I believe is possible for people to do.

My faith, then, is such that for the significance of, say, the divinity of Christ... it must be the case that people are not able to willfully alter or enact supernatural events. For people to be able to do that would mean that my faith, as it were, were metaphysically inaccurate--and were I to have evidence of that, the one paradigm would have to give way to the other, or I'd have to blindly and ignorantly avoid experential truths.

Bloody good answer, love. (I've read it over a few times, to check ) and I can completely see what you mean, if people can essentially do the stuff only God can do, then you've got to re-think your faith. SO therefore for magic as you define it to exsist, you'd have to completely change, or a least adapt, your faith. *nods* I get that.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I'm not sure where you get elitism or me calling someone delusional in what I'm writing, but since I guess you did...I'll quit writing now.

Oh, that wasn't an encouragement to stop writing at all. Or an accusation. I thought we were just exploring the space, so to speak.

For there to be an experience or a level of experience (if that's more accurate) that some can participate in and some cannot participate in--based on degree of belief--strikes me as the promotion of a fairly elitist view of reality. If someone can perform acts of magic, but the observation or experience of that act is dependant on believing that act happened, then we're sort of creating a self-serving world-view.

Or, maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Past that, if it is the case that I'm not, it is the case that the proponents of a magic-occurant world express both elitisms and a sense of superiority over those who really don't believe it. There are many examples of this, a very common form of it being that those that don't buy into it are "blind" or "brainwashed" or other such notions... if that's not the calling of a person "delusional" (in effect) for their inability to experience one's seemingly entirely subective world... I just don't know what is.

 

[Liar]

I'm not really vell versed in the mechanics of whichcraft et al, but isn't that magic pretty much the same as prayers? I mean, prayers like "Please God, cure my husband" or "give me courage" or "let the Redskins win the World Series." But aimed elsewhere, at another deity (or the same deity w a different name, some would argue), and with different rituals.

It's both a call upon chainging the natural order of things through supernatural intervention.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I'm not really vell versed in the mechanics of whichcraft et al, but isn't that magic pretty much the same as prayers? I mean, prayers like "Please God, cure my husband" or "give me courage" or "let the Redskins win the World Series." But aimed elsewhere, at another deity (or the same deity w a different name, some would argue), and with different rituals.

It's both a call upon chainging the natural order of things through supernatural intervention.

I'd thought about that...

But, prayer is the request for divine intervention--so, at best a willful request for a supernatural event. Magic, if its to have any meaning as anything but merely another word for prayer (and then, why use the word at all, really?), is the willful and direct causing of a supernatural event.

If one is to say "Oh, it's not really causing... its only drawing upon one's own ability a little and then the vast majority is the god/goddesses doing" or other such doesn't escape the causation. Reducing the role of one's authorship of the events does not mean that one is not authoring them, in the end.

Arguments to the effect of "its all a ritualized form of prayer" leave me wondering why state that one has any control over the matter at all?

 

[English Lady]

I'd thought about that...

But, prayer is the request for divine intervention--so, at best a willful request for a supernatural event. Magic, if its to have any meaning as anything but merely another word for prayer (and then, why use the word at all, really?), is the willful and direct causing of a supernatural event.

If one is to say "Oh, it's not really causing... its only drawing upon one's own ability a little and then the vast majority is the god/goddesses doing" or other such doesn't escape the causation. Reducing the role of one's authorship of the events does not mean that one is not authoring them, in the end.

Arguments to the effect of "its all a ritualized form of prayer" leave me wondering why state that one has any control over the matter at all?

...And anyone can pray, but only certain people can do magic, that's another major difference, I think.

 

[Recidiva]

Oh, that wasn't an encouragement to stop writing at all. Or an accusation. I thought we were just exploring the space, so to speak.

For there to be an experience or a level of experience (if that's more accurate) that some can participate in and some cannot participate in--based on degree of belief--strikes me as the promotion of a fairly elitist view of reality. If someone can perform acts of magic, but the observation or experience of that act is dependant on believing that act happened, then we're sort of creating a self-serving world-view.

Or, maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Past that, if it is the case that I'm not, it is the case that the proponents of a magic-occurant world express both elitisms and a sense of superiority over those who really don't believe it. There are many examples of this, a very common form of it being that those that don't buy into it are "blind" or "brainwashed" or other such notions... if that's not the calling of a person "delusional" (in effect) for their inability to experience one's seemingly entirely subective world... I just don't know what is.

What we have here is a failure to communicate, I guess.

I'm not an elitist. I don't believe I'm right and mine is the only way. I don't at all define "magic" in your terms at all. Or belief. Or proof.

Jesus was a healer in that he could lay on hands and cure the sick. I think the stories were blown entirely too far out of proportion, but in his stories there are lay on hands healings and things that I believe have to do with the flow of energy in a body, blockage, "chi" or whatever you want to call it from a hundred different traditions.

I don't believe that this energy flow is a myth. I believe it's a real thing.

Whether or not someone can cure by laying on hands isn't a question for me. This is the sort of thing I was born detecting and subtly manipulating to unblock any stuck energy patterns. Stuck thought patterns. Solving problems by conceiving of energy in different ways and being able to identify a source of thought or body energy stuck and blocked.

I think Jesus was one of these perceptive healers. There are also others who have had the same gifts.

I'm not claiming to have an extraordinary talent. But I do have perceptions that for me are demonstrable. I can't prove it to you because you're not in my physical space, and even if you were, you'd really have to have some reason for me to notice or be responsible for you (call it karma, maybe). I'm afraid if you're not a part of that pattern, by my own code, which includes not forcing my will on anyone else, it would be a useless question to ask. Healing arises on its own, from very specific circumstances, and it doesn't come when I call, I come when it calls.

Anyway, this is something I know and do. Others know this, do this. I believe Jesus knew it and did it. That, to me, is the basis of my conversation. I don't claim powers or miracles to compete with God or his prophets. I'm just a human with human skills. Skills I believe Jesus said we all had.

So me proving something to you is irrelevant. Maybe if you spent a great deal of time with me you'd notice a difference in my ethics, my manners, my thoughts, and my physical space. Maybe not. I'm not an evangelist and I'm not out to convert anybody. I would just enjoy space enough to exist.

You have faith, and that faith is without proof. There's no way I could teach you anything about my experiences, until you emptied out at least some of your faith that disagreed with it...so there would be some space to hold what I hold dear.

 

[Recidiva]

...And anyone can pray, but only certain people can do magic, that's another major difference, I think.

I don't agree. Even the Church isn't strictly monotheistic. It has saints, it has the Madonna. People pick and choose who to pray to, at times, to bring their prayers into being.

Choosing to hold a stone in your hand to have the power of earth to aid you, or washing with water to cleanse, these are direct connections to things we can touch. Things we don't have to have faith in, but we know are there every day and we can access. Things that God gave us. This is the earth, where we are now. Whether or not we believe in heaven, touching and knowing what is here for us now, is available to everyone.

Whether or not it works is irrelevant, really. It's a connection.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

What we have here is a failure to communicate, I guess.

I'm not an elitist. I don't believe I'm right and mine is the only way. I don't at all define "magic" in your terms at all. Or belief. Or proof.

Jesus was a healer in that he could lay on hands and cure the sick. I think the stories were blown entirely too far out of proportion, but in his stories there are lay on hands healings and things that I believe have to do with the flow of energy in a body, blockage, "chi" or whatever you want to call it from a hundred different traditions.

I don't believe that this energy flow is a myth. I believe it's a real thing.

Whether or not someone can cure by laying on hands isn't a question for me. This is the sort of thing I was born detecting and subtly manipulating to unblock any stuck energy patterns. Stuck thought patterns. Solving problems by conceiving of energy in different ways and being able to identify a source of thought or body energy stuck and blocked.

I think Jesus was one of these perceptive healers. There are also others who have had the same gifts.

I'm not claiming to have an extraordinary talent. But I do have perceptions that for me are demonstrable. I can't prove it to you because you're not in my physical space, and even if you were, you'd really have to have some reason for me to notice or be responsible for you (call it karma, maybe). I'm afraid if you're not a part of that pattern, by my own code, which includes not forcing my will on anyone else, it would be a useless question to ask. Healing arises on its own, from very specific circumstances, and it doesn't come when I call, I come when it calls.

Anyway, this is something I know and do. Others know this, do this. I believe Jesus knew it and did it. That, to me, is the basis of my conversation. I don't claim powers or miracles to compete with God or his prophets. I'm just a human with human skills. Skills I believe Jesus said we all had.

So me proving something to you is irrelevant. Maybe if you spent a great deal of time with me you'd notice a difference in my ethics, my manners, my thoughts, and my physical space. Maybe not. I'm not an evangelist and I'm not out to convert anybody. I would just enjoy space enough to exist.

You have faith, and that faith is without proof. There's no way I could teach you anything about my experiences, until you emptied out at least some of your faith that disagreed with it...so there would be some space to hold what I hold dear.

So, essentially... this is precisely what I said before.

And I would politely disagree that the Church is not monotheistic. Saints and the conceptual Virgin Mary are not divine.

 

[Recidiva]

So, essentially... this is precisely what I said before.

And I would politely disagree that the Church is not monotheistic. Saints and the conceptual Virgin Mary are not divine.

Regardless of divine, people pray to them nonetheless.

My belief is that everything is God, there is nothing that isn't God and everything has its connection to God. Everything is sacred.

I don't believe I have dominion over the world. I am part of the world, and we share dominion over each other.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Regardless of divine, people pray to them nonetheless.

But, that's still not polytheistic any more than someone believing their recently deceased spouse is "watching over" them means they believe in multiple gods.

My belief is that everything is God, there is nothing that isn't God and everything has its connection to God. Everything is sacred.

I don't believe I have dominion over the world. I am part of the world, and we share dominion over each other.

That may be. I don't really know or have anything to say about that. My point, is that the existence and practice of magic in any real form is, thus far, pretty far off the mark experientially and leaves very much to be desired as a form of metaphysical reality making itself apparent.

 

[English Lady]

I don't agree. Even the Church isn't strictly monotheistic. It has saints, it has the Madonna. People pick and choose who to pray to, at times, to bring their prayers into being.

Choosing to hold a stone in your hand to have the power of earth to aid you, or washing with water to cleanse, these are direct connections to things we can touch. Things we don't have to have faith in, but we know are there every day and we can access. Things that God gave us. This is the earth, where we are now. Whether or not we believe in heaven, touching and knowing what is here for us now, is available to everyone.

Whether or not it works is irrelevant, really. It's a connection.

I agree with Joe on the fact that Mary + saints aren't gods -some people pray to them, fair enough, I'm not arguing that, but how does this show that all people can't pray?

People pray every day, maybe not to a named God, but they cry out to a someone for help -anyone can do that.

 

[Recidiva]

But, that's still not polytheistic any more than someone believing their recently deceased spouse is "watching over" them means they believe in multiple gods.

That may be. I don't really know or have anything to say about that. My point, is that the existence and practice of magic in any real form is, thus far, pretty far off the mark experientially and leaves very much to be desired as a form of metaphysical reality making itself apparent.

That's based on your definition of "real form" and not mine.

Then again I've spent lots and lots of time with people who have differing definitions of magic and talent for it. Experiential is relative. So if you discount everyone else's experience as unverifiable, that makes it fictional.

Science really can't be applied to everything. You certainly can't apply it to the Christian faith and come to any conclusions there either.

 

[Recidiva]

I agree with Joe on the fact that Mary + saints aren't gods -some people pray to them, fair enough, I'm not arguing that, but how does this show that all people can't pray?

People pray every day, maybe not to a named God, but they cry out to a someone for help -anyone can do that.

It's my belief that people don't pray because they believe their prayers will be answered. I think people pray because they need someone to talk to. My belief comes from the immediate grief reaction that almost everyone gets..."bargaining"

They need someone to bargain with. Anyone that they believe might listen to get them what they're grieving for. It's a universal mechanism of the human mind. From this arises prayer and hope.

I didn't say people couldn't pray. You said that not everybody could do magic. That, to me, IS the basis of magic. Creating an archetype you can communicate with. This, to me is also the basis of religion. Grief and hope.

 

[English Lady]

It's my belief that people don't pray because they believe their prayers will be answered. I think people pray because they need someone to talk to. My belief comes from the immediate grief reaction that almost everyone gets..."bargaining"

They need someone to bargain with. Anyone that they believe might listen to get them what they're grieving for. It's a universal mechanism of the human mind. From this arises prayer and hope.

I didn't say people couldn't pray. You said that not everybody could do magic. That, to me, IS the basis of magic. Creating an archetype you can communicate with. This, to me is also the basis of religion. Grief and hope.

Okay, I'm sorry, maybe I've misunderstood some of what you've said -in which case I apologise profusely for being thick
But, I thought it'd been said only certain people could feel the magic connection thing, that only some are sensitive too it..I took that ot mean it's not something everyone can do.

Did I understand that wrongly?

(And my understanding of prayer is that people in times of great emotion search for something that's missing -something they need -ie God, but that's just my take on it )