Spectrum of Infidelity/Cheating?

[SweetErika]

My husband and I were talking about this tonight, and I thought it'd be interesting to see what everyone here thought....

I know some people feel anything your SO doesn't or wouldn't approve of is cheating, plain and simple. Having a secretive friendship, cybering, kissing, hugging, oral, sex...it's all cheating, and would lead to the same feelings of betrayal no matter the activity.

Others may agree with the same basic definition of cheating, but are more flexible... some activities might be lesser "offenses" (like cybering or kissing), or even easily justified by circumstances, and it gets progressively worse/more hurtful.

How do you and your SO, if applicable, feel? Do you apply a blanket rule, or do you see it as a spectrum with a definite line, and maybe even some gray area?

 

[Lynxie]

My husband and I have a general rule that we tell each other everything - flirting online and even the occassional cyber is fine, as long as we talk about it openly. Real life activities are off limits, unless we discuss and plan ahead of time and are both comfortable with it (i.e. including someone else in our sex life, rather than cheating).

We've discussed it before, and we do view infidelity as a spectrum - there are varying degrees of cheating. For example, kissing someone once would not be quite as bad as having sex with them, which still wouldn't be as bad as having a long-term secret affair. I suppose the degree of severity is directly related to the motives and emotions behind the cheating. Did you slip up and kiss someone after having too much to drink? Or did you find someone you're passionately in love with and enter into a relationship with them? Depending on the degree of infidelity, I'd have to say that some actions would be more forgiveable than others.

I have a friend who's very much less forgiving with her husband. As far as I know, they've never had an active discussion about infidelity. Her standard rule is to abandon guys that cheat on her - she booted two boyfriends prior to getting married, and doesn't give her SO an ounce of slack. She won't let him talk to any female she doesn't know (online or otherwise), go to stripclubs, or even watch porn. She views herself as a good wife who's keeping her man in line, but from my perspective she's being far to controlling and untrusting. It makes me relieved to know my husband and I have a much more comfortable and honest relationship.

 

[silverwhisper]

my wife & i are generally of the mind that if we'd be embarrassed to do it openly in the other's presence, that's where it crosses the line. some acts are completely out--any actual sexual contact, for example--but this permits for some situation-specific responses.

ed

 

[phoenix1224]

We've discussed it before, and we do view infidelity as a spectrum - there are varying degrees of cheating. For example, kissing someone once would not be quite as bad as having sex with them, which still wouldn't be as bad as having a long-term secret affair. I suppose the degree of severity is directly related to the motives and emotions behind the cheating. Did you slip up and kiss someone after having too much to drink? Or did you find someone you're passionately in love with and enter into a relationship with them? Depending on the degree of infidelity, I'd have to say that some actions would be more forgiveable than others.

I agree totally...

I think that innocent flirting is OK.

I could fairly easily forgive a kiss.

I could possibly forgive a one-time sexual encounter, although it would take time and be quite difficult emotionally... We're all human, so anyone can make ONE mistake.

MULTIPLE one-time indescretions or an actual AFFAIR, I could NEVER forgive under any circumstances... It's one thing to make ONE mistake. But to make the SAME mistake over and over again? Unforgivable.




But, I believe that ANY physical or emotional intimacy that occurs without the knowledge AND approval of your partner IS cheating.

 

[silverwhisper]

you know something funny? i believe that a kiss is actually a worse thing in some instances than actual intercourse.

ed

 

[EJFan]

i've had this discussion with many different people in my life. a few years ago, i participated in a survey in college about it. this is how i responded to the question then (after much thought).

to me, cheating is anything one partner in a relationship does that's emotionally damaging by way of deception. it could be anything ranging from a gaze to an orgy... if the non-participating partner is emotionally damaged by it and the engaging partner was deceptive, then it's cheating.

edit to read "engaging partner was DECEPTIVE" (not deceived)... thanks ezzy... mental typo there.

 

[Ezzy]

i've had this discussion with many different people in my life. a few years ago, i participated in a survey in college about it. this is how i responded to the question then (after much thought).

to me, cheating is anything one partner in a relationship does that's emotionally damaging by way of deception. it could be anything ranging from a gaze to an orgy... if the non-participating partner is emotionally damaged by it and the engaging partner was deceived, then it's cheating.

Just asking for clarity, do you mean the engaging partner was deceived, or do you mean the engaging partner was deceiving?

I think the spectrum is narrower than many others have said; if you feel you cheated or that your partner cheated on you, then you were probably cheated on or cheated.

Therefore in my opinion the spectrum falls into a "black or white" opinion, either you were faithful to each other or you were cheating or being cheated on!

As soon as there is the sense of something illicit happening, the specter of cheating is in the air.

 

[silverwhisper]

ezzy: would you say that there's a caveat in there for irrational people who "know" things which have no basis in reality?

ed

 

[Willing and Unsure]

seeing as I have actually cheated in the past once, I can put a slightly different view on this I think.

I feel that if one person resorts to cheating, there are really only 2 reasons for it: a dumb mistake, or the relationship is already falling apart. Now, for me personally, if it was just a dumb mistake that my partner made, it all depends on how far it went as to whether or not I could forgive. If it was because the relationship was falling apart anyways, then I dont see myself being very forgiving and most likely ending the relationship anyways.

As to what extents I'm okay with for my partner actually doing really depends on the situation and the person it's with. I know for a fact that if he's flirting with a girl that's trying to come onto him, I will not be happy in the slightest bit and may construe it as cheating. However if it's a kiss (quick peck) with a good friend to cheer her up, then I dont think I'd have any problems wtih that. Anything else though, excluding hugs, is definitely what I would classify as cheating.

 

[SweetErika]

My husband and I have a general rule that we tell each other everything - flirting online and even the occassional cyber is fine, as long as we talk about it openly. Real life activities are off limits, unless we discuss and plan ahead of time and are both comfortable with it (i.e. including someone else in our sex life, rather than cheating).

We've discussed it before, and we do view infidelity as a spectrum - there are varying degrees of cheating. For example, kissing someone once would not be quite as bad as having sex with them, which still wouldn't be as bad as having a long-term secret affair. I suppose the degree of severity is directly related to the motives and emotions behind the cheating. Did you slip up and kiss someone after having too much to drink? Or did you find someone you're passionately in love with and enter into a relationship with them? Depending on the degree of infidelity, I'd have to say that some actions would be more forgiveable than others.

I have a friend who's very much less forgiving with her husband. As far as I know, they've never had an active discussion about infidelity. Her standard rule is to abandon guys that cheat on her - she booted two boyfriends prior to getting married, and doesn't give her SO an ounce of slack. She won't let him talk to any female she doesn't know (online or otherwise), go to stripclubs, or even watch porn. She views herself as a good wife who's keeping her man in line, but from my perspective she's being far to controlling and untrusting. It makes me relieved to know my husband and I have a much more comfortable and honest relationship.

Thanks, Lynxie...we tend to take your viewpoint, but I find your friend's fascinating. Do you think her policy actually does/will "keep him in line," or is she just setting herself up for heartache? Do you know how he feels about it?

my wife & i are generally of the mind that if we'd be embarrassed to do it openly in the other's presence, that's where it crosses the line. some acts are completely out--any actual sexual contact, for example--but this permits for some situation-specific responses.

ed

you know something funny? i believe that a kiss is actually a worse thing in some instances than actual intercourse.

ed

Ed- I'm curious about what you mean by situation-specific responses...can you think of an example?

My husband brought up the idea that kissing is worse than sex for some people, saying that sex is often justifiable as solely physical, but kissing is emotional. Is that your reasoning? Does your wife feel the same way?

I agree totally...

I think that innocent flirting is OK.

I could fairly easily forgive a kiss.

I could possibly forgive a one-time sexual encounter, although it would take time and be quite difficult emotionally... We're all human, so anyone can make ONE mistake.

MULTIPLE one-time indescretions or an actual AFFAIR, I could NEVER forgive under any circumstances... It's one thing to make ONE mistake. But to make the SAME mistake over and over again? Unforgivable.

But, I believe that ANY physical or emotional intimacy that occurs without the knowledge AND approval of your partner IS cheating.

Thank you for input, Phoenix.

i've had this discussion with many different people in my life. a few years ago, i participated in a survey in college about it. this is how i responded to the question then (after much thought).

to me, cheating is anything one partner in a relationship does that's emotionally damaging by way of deception. it could be anything ranging from a gaze to an orgy... if the non-participating partner is emotionally damaged by it and the engaging partner was deceived, then it's cheating.

I think that's a great definition, though I'd be hard-pressed to call a gaze or some other activities cheating ever (I usually go by the 'Would a reasonable person have a problem with this?' standard). So even with your definition, EJ, do you see it as a spectrum with lesser and more serious offenses, or would everything likely produce similar thoughts and feelings for you?

 

[EJFan]

Just asking for clarity, do you mean the engaging partner was deceived, or do you mean the engaging partner was deceiving?

i mean the engaging partner was being deceiving. maybe i typed the wrong thing... i'll check.

 

[EJFan]

So even with your definition, EJ, do you see it as a spectrum with lesser and more serious offenses, or would everything likely produce similar thoughts and feelings for you?

there is definitely a spectrum in my mind... HOWEVER... by my "rule" it would have to be emotionally damaging to the non-cheating partner. this leaves things open to interpretation by each couple (some consider a glance to be offensive/hurtful/cheating and others need much more before they're hurt).

is this too lawyerly? lol.

 

[silverwhisper]

ed: i'm curious about what you mean by situation-specific responses...[snip]... husband brought up the idea that kissing is worse than sex for some people, saying that sex is often justifiable as solely physical, but kissing is emotional. is that your reasoning? does your wife feel the same way?

IMV, a kiss is not necessarily worse not b/c it's emotional, but rather b/c it's intimate. a kiss can IMHO be more powerful and intimate than intercourse, sure. when i kiss my wife, it isn't just lips touching, it isn't just hearts touching: it's souls touching. it's a beautiful, precious thing: almost gossamer-like in its complexity but stronger than steel.

i don't mind the idea that my wife might have shared our bed with someone else half as much as i do that she might have shared her soul with someone else.

for example: we all remember our first kiss, and despite the rose-colored glasses we might tend to don while strolling down memory lane, it was pretty damned special for many. and we all remember the first time we had intercourse--or at least, w/ whom it happened. but on balance, i think that people remember the person, not that first act itself.

i've discussed the matter w/ my wife--let's just say i've made bad choices in the past and leave it at that--and we more or less see eye to eye around the periphery: certain forms of flirting are not acceptable, for example. but in the important stuff, yeah, we're on the same page.

ed

 

[tisluvbull]

As a general guideline my girlfriend and I determined:

 

[SweetErika]

there is definitely a spectrum in my mind... HOWEVER... by my "rule" it would have to be emotionally damaging to the non-cheating partner. this leaves things open to interpretation by each couple (some consider a glance to be offensive/hurtful/cheating and others need much more before they're hurt).

is this too lawyerly? lol.

A little lawyer-like, but I certainly agree.

As a general guideline my girlfriend and I determined:


1) Sex
2) Anything physical you do with the opposite sex that you wouldnt do with your grandma is clearly off limits.


Trust

Based solely on comfortability. If one of us starts feeling uncomfortable with what the other is doing or how they are acting, then it needs to be talked about and comfort restored.
- getting close with the someone from the opposite sex...more emotional.
- starting to spend less time with eachother
- anything that could be borderline hurtful we will usually talk about

Seeking pleasure through another person besides eachother ( whether emotional or physical) is cheating. Our trust purely resides in making the other person always feel as comfortable as possible. I have always hated when people say.. " do you trust me. You know I would never do that to you." Cheating is the end of our relationship and I think a given fact for most. So instead, when we say, " I really trust you, hunnybunny." That means that we are constantly seeking ways to provide comfort on many different levels.

The whole spectrum idea might work for some who are perhaps more openminded. I just think its easier to redefine trust in understanding that cheating of any kind is against the common law in relationships. It works for us.

Very well said, tisluvbull. We operate on trust, and neither of us can handle the thought of breaking that trust. Consequently, we talk about all of this frequently. I found it interesting that our ideas on cheating have evolved with the relationship and are pretty fluid and situation-dependent...some acts that would have unquestionably been cheating and had serious implications a year ago are borderline or even acceptable now. But that's where complete trust and communication prove themselves as invaluable.

 

[SweetErika]

IMV, a kiss is not necessarily worse not b/c it's emotional, but rather b/c it's intimate. a kiss can IMHO be more powerful and intimate than intercourse, sure. when i kiss my wife, it isn't just lips touching, it isn't just hearts touching: it's souls touching. it's a beautiful, precious thing: almost gossamer-like in its complexity but stronger than steel.

i don't mind the idea that my wife might have shared our bed with someone else half as much as i do that she might have shared her soul with someone else.

for example: we all remember our first kiss, and despite the rose-colored glasses we might tend to don while strolling down memory lane, it was pretty damned special for many. and we all remember the first time we had intercourse--or at least, w/ whom it happened. but on balance, i think that people remember the person, not that first act itself.

i've discussed the matter w/ my wife--let's just say i've made bad choices in the past and leave it at that--and we more or less see eye to eye around the periphery: certain forms of flirting are not acceptable, for example. but in the important stuff, yeah, we're on the same page.

ed

Beautifully put, Ed. We feel kissing is a lesser offense, but I suppose a lot of it would depend on the people involved and circumstances for us. It's a little off-track, but while I understand the viewpoint, I don't see how people can have any kind of sex without kissing, and "no kissing sex" would be just as serious and painful as an act of cheating.

 

[silverwhisper]

[bows]

thank you, erika.

i fully understand that my opinion is probably not the majority opinion on the matter. :> but i have indeed had sex where there was no kissing: for about 2 months, that was the way w/ my second girlfriend, b/c i was still sorta seeing my first at the time.

wow...that really makes me sound like a pig, doesn't it? ah, well.

ed

 

[Ezzy]

ezzy: would you say that there's a caveat in there for irrational people who "know" things which have no basis in reality?

ed

Sure there is room for the caveat. The trouble is that if you are in a longterm relationship with an irational person, and you still give them cause for false accusations, you had better weigh your love for that person with the fact that they are not going to change, and will only grow worse over time.

Take the bull by the horns, and get out while you can! Been there, done that, and we both survivied the break up, just.

 

[Eilan]

It's interesting to discover this thread because my husband and I were just talking about this same issue a few days ago (actually because of another thread on the HT Cafe). Both of us were married to people who cheated. In his case it happened at least three times (that he knows of, anyway). Hell, one of the things we did when we first met each other was swap cheating-related "sob stories."

My husband has always said that when he first discovered that his ex was cheating (with a "friend" of his), he wasn't particularly upset about the fact that she'd had sex with someone else. He was upset because she felt that she loved the other guy. So for him, the emotional aspect of the affair was more devastating than discovering that she'd been physically involved with someone else.

In my case, my ex deliberately had sex with someone else to hurt me. I've touched on the events that led up to that when I've posted on other threads. In that case, though, it was all about timing. And the timing was REALLY bad! Had he met that person a year--or even six months--before, nothing would have come of it.

But, I believe that ANY physical or emotional intimacy that occurs without the knowledge AND approval of your partner IS cheating.

I've always tended to feel this way. My husband and I have discussed it and he has said that if I were to cyber or exchange erotic emails, it wouldn't upset him in the least. However, I'm just not interested. I don't feel like it's something that I have to do just because I've been given the green light to do so.

 

[pplwatching]

I could possibly forgive a one-time sexual encounter, although it would take time and be quite difficult emotionally... We're all human, so anyone can make ONE mistake.

I'd like to attack this general line of thinking (as opposed to attacking you, which I am not trying to do). This really bothers me, even angers me.

What exactly is the mistake here? Driving past where I'm supposed to turn is a mistake. Forgetting to "carry the one" when adding is a mistake. How do you mistakenly have sex? "Sorry hon, I thought I was fucking a blow up doll ... but it turned out to be a real person! My mistake."

I think that when someone says "I can forgive one mistake", they are really trying to say "I'm human, what's to keep me from making that mistake?". They fear the unkown, nothing more. They are afraid of how they'll react when they're lonely or hurting and need companionship. Hold yourself to a higher standard and demand that those who ask you to commit to them do too.

I really don't care for classifying behaviour as "cheating" or "not cheating". Relationships are built on mutual respect and trust. Any act that is intentionally disrespectful or violates that trust should not be tolerated. The fact of the matter is that putting Tab A into Slot B is an intentional act. Kissing someone is an intentional act. If your lover has expressly given their blessing to that sort of thing, knock yourself out. Otherwise it's disrespect, pure and simple, if you do it anyway. If your partner says that having sex is okay, but falling in love isn't then the fact that sex very often leads to emotional entanglements means that having sex is not actually okay with your partner. If you want that sort of freedom, then go out and find someone who shares your philosophy.

Pleading shades of gray is adding insult to injury. The offending party didn't care about you or your feelings when they chose to explore, kiss, or have sex. They intentionally ignored their commitment to you and engaged in an intimate act. When confronted, they want vindication. They want you to agree that what they did wasn't a breach of your relationship. It lets them off of the hook -- once again proving that they don't care how you feel.

 

[collegeguy2050]

im just not a fan of cheating...cheating sucks..it hurts you if you are cheated on and u hurt your SO if you do it.

 

[pplwatching]

you know something funny? i believe that a kiss is actually a worse thing in some instances than actual intercourse.

I have a problem with this too. Sorry, nothing personal.

Putting aside platonic displays of affection, the quoted statement is mistakenly based on two things. First, the belief that if the kiss in question is an emotional connection, then you have breached your relationship; otherwise you haven't. Second, that it is possible to have sex without an emotional connection, therefore without breaching the relationship.

A fundamental flaw here is that the quote above has removed the context of trust and commitment in a relationship. What's at issue here is not, "Do I consider a kiss/sex cheating?", but is "Do either I or my SO consider this cheating?". The boundaries of the relationship are not defined by one person. If you believe that it's not cheating and you believe that kissing and/or sex will never lead to a situation that *is* cheating, then you need to find someone who shares your philosophy. At least show some respect and courtesy for your SO and let them choose to move on or not, as they see fit.

If the kiss has no emotional connection, then what's the point of the kiss? It's to sexually excite your lover. To bring about a psychological and physiological change that will both make her more receptive to having sex with you and her sexual response exites you. That's an intimate connection. Shivers, cries, moans, and orgasms are a shared experience of great sex on many different levels. If you are a considerate lover and want your sexual partner to have a great time, then you are building an intimate connection with that person. That's a powerful connection, and as intimate as any you'll ever experience, just shorter.

Most of the posts here appear to be making the point that 'cheating' is defined by the intimacy of the experience. I suppose that I am making an argument that illicit kisses, swinging, fuck buddies, etc are about temporary intimate connections. I don't think that how long the connection lasts is an issue.

 

[NorthwestTrail]

I'd like to attack this general line of thinking (as opposed to attacking you, which I am not trying to do). This really bothers me, even angers me.

What exactly is the mistake here? Driving past where I'm supposed to turn is a mistake. Forgetting to "carry the one" when adding is a mistake. How do you mistakenly have sex? "Sorry hon, I thought I was fucking a blow up doll ... but it turned out to be a real person! My mistake."

I think that when someone says "I can forgive one mistake", they are really trying to say "I'm human, what's to keep me from making that mistake?". They fear the unkown, nothing more. They are afraid of how they'll react when they're lonely or hurting and need companionship. Hold yourself to a higher standard and demand that those who ask you to commit to them do too.

I find this conversation fascinating. My SO and I generally agree with phoenix’s point of view. However, I wanted to look at pplwatching’s idea that, "I can forgive one mistake," is NOT a mistake, because it requires some amount of premeditation.

I believe that “I can forgive one mistake” is a good idea to have, but I tend to take a socio-biological view on this. I believe that for many people, “I can forgive one mistake” is a mental trick that helps us be more faithful because we do not feel as constricted to one genetic partner. For my SO and I, I truly believe that “one mistake” will never happen, but if it ever does I know that we will be able to get through it since we have already talked about it. For me, it makes me feel better to have discussed this with my SO now, rather than later.

 

[SweetErika]

I'd like to attack this general line of thinking (as opposed to attacking you, which I am not trying to do). This really bothers me, even angers me.

What exactly is the mistake here? Driving past where I'm supposed to turn is a mistake. Forgetting to "carry the one" when adding is a mistake. How do you mistakenly have sex? "Sorry hon, I thought I was fucking a blow up doll ... but it turned out to be a real person! My mistake."

I think that when someone says "I can forgive one mistake", they are really trying to say "I'm human, what's to keep me from making that mistake?". They fear the unkown, nothing more. They are afraid of how they'll react when they're lonely or hurting and need companionship. Hold yourself to a higher standard and demand that those who ask you to commit to them do too.

I really don't care for classifying behaviour as "cheating" or "not cheating". Relationships are built on mutual respect and trust. Any act that is intentionally disrespectful or violates that trust should not be tolerated. The fact of the matter is that putting Tab A into Slot B is an intentional act. Kissing someone is an intentional act. If your lover has expressly given their blessing to that sort of thing, knock yourself out. Otherwise it's disrespect, pure and simple, if you do it anyway. If your partner says that having sex is okay, but falling in love isn't then the fact that sex very often leads to emotional entanglements means that having sex is not actually okay with your partner. If you want that sort of freedom, then go out and find someone who shares your philosophy.

First off, thanks for the well thought out posts, pplwatching...they really got me thinking. I agree that sex isn't a mistake...the mistakes are acting out on your feelings, not really considering the consequences, not respecting your SO, etc. I've said and done hurtful things to my partner before, and I call those mistakes, so I see cheating much the same way, just on a larger scale. I guess when we agree we get one mistake, we're simply recognizing it's possible to screw up, regret it, and work back to a healthy relationship. I'm comforted by the fact that we talk about it and know we can overcome something that painful. But we've also agreed to talk to eachother if cheating becomes a real possibility so we can work something out, and I don't have any doubt either of us would fail to live up to that promise.

 

[phoenix1224]

I'd like to attack this general line of thinking (as opposed to attacking you, which I am not trying to do). This really bothers me, even angers me.

What exactly is the mistake here? Driving past where I'm supposed to turn is a mistake. Forgetting to "carry the one" when adding is a mistake. How do you mistakenly have sex? "Sorry hon, I thought I was fucking a blow up doll ... but it turned out to be a real person! My mistake."

I understand that you weren't attacking me... In fact, you brought up a very good point.

So, I should clarify that when I said "mistake" what I meant was "error in judgement" which, ANYONE can make under the right circumstances.

I think that when someone says "I can forgive one mistake", they are really trying to say "I'm human, what's to keep me from making that mistake?".

That's exactly it.

No one can say with complete certainty that they would NEVER cheat... All anyone can ever say with complete certainty (if they're honest with themselves) is that they cannot FORESEE a situation in which they would.