Sparta, Hume, Smith and early America

70/30

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Maybe the civil war did largely result from agricultural America's unwillingness to completely embrace Hume and Adam Smith, ie mercantilism. The same could be said for persecuting Native Americans. Today, should Americans profusely embrace Hume and Smith with no growth checks? And/or to maintain a more simplistic growth by being quasi-imperialists (land seizers)? Or look to find a middle ground between rapid growth and spartan simplicity? Discuss or don't.

exerpts from "The Elusive Republic: Political Economy in Jeffersonian America" by Drew R. McCoy pg75; pg83
University of North Carolina Press. A critique of the book is found at http://vi.uh.edu/pages/buzzmat/mccoy.html

"most of the Revolutionaries, even with their doubts and misgivings about themselves, seemed to hope that the spirit of classical republicanism could be accommodated both to more modern republican principles and to a more complex social and economic environment...

The intellectual dilemma such a challenge posed for American republicans was inescapable. The problem of finding a way to permit liberty, commerce, and prosperity and, at the same time, to deny their potentially corrupting effects was neither new in American history nor unusual in the context of the eighteenth century's poignant endeavor to bridge the growing gap between antiquity and modernity. Most Americans had no choice but to adopt the deceptively simple and perhaps chimerical proposal that John Brown had offered in his widely read tract from the 1750s--'that commerce and wealth not be discouraged in their Growth, but checked and contouled in their Effects'--for very few of them, including Benjamin Franklin, ever seriously anticipated a republican America without commerce and the wealth and refinement it would inevitably bring. Franklin's vision of an expanding agricultural republic was not a call for Americans to retreat to a social simplicity that was primitive or barbarous--indeed, no one appreciated more than he the advantages of Hume's version of civilised cultural progress. And above all, Franklin's republican vision was hardly that of a Spartan, self-contained society of hermit yeomen, for it was closely tied to a much broader international commercial vision...

For many reasons tied to their fear and distrust of an advanced division of labor in densely populated commercial societies, the Revolutionaries hesistated to embrace Hume's solution of fostering advanced manufactures at home. Adopting this familiar Eurpoean remedy implied that America would be pushed ahead into a new, more complex, and politically dangerous stage of social development. For most Americans, a much better expedient was the opening of abundant foreign markets for the burgeoning surpluses that the farmers were peculiarly equipped to produce. In this way, it was hoped the, the United States might secure the basis for a properly industrious and moral people but still remain the predominantly agricultural society that best supported republicanism. The Scottish writer Sir James Steuart had expressed a standard axiom of eighteenth century political economy by noting that 'when foreign demands begins to fail, so as to not be recalled, either industry must decline, or domestic luxury must begin.' Americans hoped to avoid this situation altogether, because both results of a failure of foreign demand mentioned by Steuart were dangerous to a republican people, who could afford neither a decline in industry nor a more advanced economy tied to the production of luxury manufactures. Only a vigorous foreign commerce with plentiful markets and a highly developed international divsion of labor that would permit the United States to continue its specialization in agriculture could provide the necessary basis for a healthy society of active, enterprising, hence virtuous, republican farmers.

To this extent, however, an expanding American republic required more than merely a reservoir of virgin land in order to remain industrious and predominantly agricultural. It also demanded an open and unrestricted foreign commerce that offered rapidly expanding export markets. And given this formula, the fate of republicanism in America was tied in great measure to the vicissitudes of international trade."
 
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Anybody tried that toilet paper with the lotion in it yet?

I bet that would be like gettin' a dog to lick your ass spic 'n span clean every time.
 
Problem Child said:
Anybody tried that toilet paper with the lotion in it yet?

I bet that would be like gettin' a dog to lick your ass spic 'n span clean every time.

I dunno 'bout that, but i love charmin plus with aloe. Chicks don't dig it, too greasy. An anthropology professor buddy of mine gave me a whole spiel on how tp used to be wet rags and marketers had a helluva time convincing people to use dry paper. This was about 3 years ago and he said they were getting ready to introduce wet wipes for adults. I'm all over it baby.
 
A friend of mine visited Kentucky once in the early 50s, and went to this guy's home where there was no plumbing, only an outhouse, and next to the outhouse were two baskets, and in one basket were white corn cobs, and in the other were red corn cobs.

"What are those for?" my friend asked.

"The red is for wipin', and the white is for checkin'." replied the host.

God bless progress.
 
The problem Redwave encounters with socialism is it is largely unamerican. There would need to be exacting incentives provided for industrious and virtuous laboring citizenry. He might have a case for an extensive national transportation system, free comprehensive education, and easily available health care but the result most definitely would be further subduing and imperialising around the world. I figure having the incentive to both produce and have wide domestic distribution while preserving the quality of American land, calls for extreme international projects that he would disapprove of. To me it is quite a quandary, no simple solution. Until one is provided or appears: recycling, conserving energy, looking for alternative energy systems, and cutting out superfluous trinkets seems the best answer.
 
See, I understand how they do it in space and all, everything except the "checkin'". Do they just guess and live with it?
 
Dixon Carter Lee said:
See, I understand how they do it in space and all, everything except the "checkin'". Do they just guess and live with it?

The thing with the Apollo 13 disaster was they couldn't even vent their waste out into space during their final trajectory back toward earth because even the tiny amount of lateral thrust produced by the venting could cause them to come in at too shallow or too steep and angle and either skip off the earth's atmosphere or burn up upon re-entry.

I thought Kathleen Quinlan looked pretty hot in that movie though.
 
Problem Child said:


The thing with the Apollo 13 disaster was they couldn't even vent their waste out into space during their final trajectory back toward earth because even the tiny amount of lateral thrust produced by the venting could cause them to come in at too shallow or too steep and angle and either skip off the earth's atmosphere or burn up upon re-entry.


Either you are really good at making shit sound realistic, or you know way too much about space travel.
 
sunstruck said:



Either you are really good at making shit sound realistic, or you know way too much about space travel.

I watched the movie two nights ago. Lil' Opie Taylor wouldn't make something like that up.
 
sunstruck said:


You really need a hobby.

So you believe that the visually challenged should not be afforded the same access to bathroom hygeine privelidges as the rest of civilized humanity?
 
You see?

You see what pieces of shit these people are, 70/30? You try to raise serious, important issues, and they just respond with vicious insults and stupid jokes.

That's all they're capable of.
 
Re: You see?

REDWAVE said:
You see what pieces of shit these people are, 70/30? You try to raise serious, important issues, and they just respond with vicious insults and stupid jokes.

That's all they're capable of.

Not true. We are also very good at ruthless oppression of the masses and cultural imperialism.

You have a short memory.
 
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Re: You see?

REDWAVE said:
You see what pieces of shit these people are, 70/30? You try to raise serious, important issues, and they just respond with vicious insults and stupid jokes.

That's all they're capable of.

Who did I insult on this thread, you stupid, cum-gargling fucknozzle?
 
Problem Child said:


So you believe that the visually challenged should not be afforded the same access to bathroom hygeine privelidges as the rest of civilized humanity?

I don't think an obsession with purple necessarily makes Hazie visually challenged. Of course I could be wrong in which case I will gladly purchase him a bidet.
 
sunstruck said:


I don't think an obsession with purple necessarily makes Hazie visually challenged. Of course I could be wrong in which case I will gladly purchase him a bidet.

I want a bidet so badly I'm almost ready to move to France to have one.

That's saying a lot, in my case.
 
sunstruck said:


I don't think an obsession with purple necessarily makes Hazie visually challenged. Of course I could be wrong in which case I will gladly purchase him a bidet.

Not visually challenged? Have you ever seen his wardrobe?
 
REDWAVE said:
You see what pieces of shit these people are, 70/30? You try to raise serious, important issues, and they just respond with vicious insults and stupid jokes.

That's all they're capable of.

You don't walk into a house on Monday and take a shit on the carpet, and on Tuesday expect to get tea, Pinky-On-The-Brain.

There are plenty of serious, analytical, open-minded political discussions on the board right now, started by people without bigotry of race or nation, hatred, glee at mass death, or are agending-crapping pampleteers.
 
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Purple Haze said:
What's a bidet?

I'm too lazy to look it up...

Its a term used by the foul and most foreign French.

It means "Fuck you Americans and your dry, uncomfortable ass wiping paper"
 
Dixon Carter Lee said:


You don't walk into a house at take a shit on the carpet Monday, and expect to play Bridge on Tuesday, Pinky-On-The-Brain.


Does Thursday work? I'm open then.
 
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