Something strange concerning language...

[dreampilot79]

The hell with it....

1,000,000,000,000 is the same in any language.

Hell it even translates into Sanskrit!!!!!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

LOL! I'll have to remember that one.

For the non-German speakers who don't get it, 'warum' (pronounced varoom) is German for 'why?'

DrM: See, now to my mind the English system makes more sense than the American one.

100 = one hundred
1000 = one thousand
10,000 = ten thousand
(No, I am no writing an essay in binary. This does have a point!)
100,000 = one hundred thousand
1,000,000 = one million
10,000,000 = ten million
100,000,000 = one hundred million

Now, what do you call 1,000,000,000? The pattern so far has been naming numbers up to the highest 10 value below it. Convoluted sentence, I know.

Look at the thousands - ten thousand, hundred thousand. We don't give 100,000 a special name, because a hundred is a smaller 10 value than a thousand and so the naming carries on in the same vein, until we get to 1,000,000 (a thousand thousand), whereupon it changes to million. It only changes over when the first 10 value is equal to the second value (as mathematical theory states that it is illogical to have a 'thousand thousand' for '1,000,000' as that leaves you open to a 'thousand-and-one thousands').

So then we move onto the millions. Ten million, hundred million and then the next logical progression is thousand million. Why should the second 10 value change name? A thousand is still smaller than a million, why switch to a billion now? The billion is logically switched to when there is a million million, thus ensuring consistency.

So, in summary - England rules, USA sucks <raspberry>

The Earl

By your argument then a trillion should actually be a "million million"?

Nah. Too confusing. UK follows the conventins of billion, trillions, quadrillions... Every increase of a thousand gets a new name. Why should "thousand million" be any different?

Actually, US usage probably comes from the widespread use of engineering notation, a form of scientific notation where tens are expressed in multiples of thousands, so you have thousands, millions, billions, trillions... Every increase of 10^3 gets a new name.

I'd even speculate that the difference comes about because of the amount of scientific research done here by business that has engineering applications. British science is more likely to be funded by government and academics. The US went with the more practical engineering notation usage.

---dr.M.

 

[TheEarl]

...ten
...hundred
Thousands
...ten
...hundred
Milliions
...ten
...hundred
Billions
...ten
...hundred
Trillions
...etc.

Maybe I'm missing something, how is this not rational or regular or sensible?

Well my argument is that in England it works:

...ten
...hundred
Thousands
...ten
...hundred
Milliions
...ten
...hundred
...thousand
Billions
...ten
...hundred
...thousand
...million
Trillions
...etc.

which to me seems more logical. But I have to admit that I have no idea whether England takes 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 (hopefully a 'million billion' if I have the right number of zeros) to be a trillion or a million billion. I'd guess the million billion, because it's consistent, but consistency has never really had anything to do with maths before.

The Earl

 

[Lauren Hynde]

OK, people, here's the deal

In UK, France, Germany, Portugal (all over Europe, I expect), the names come from the power of a million. That's what the names mean: a billion is a million squared, a trillion is a million cubed and so forth. This would be self-evident if anyone in the US knew anything about Latin.


1,000,000 = one million
1,000,000,000 = one thousand millions (US billion)
1,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000^2 = one billion (US trillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000 = one thousand billions (US quadrillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000^3 = one trillion (US quintillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = one thousand trillions (US sextillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000^4 = one quadrillion (US septillion)
...


Come on, admit it. Our way is the only one that makes sense.


PS:
Snoop, In German
Eine milliarde = 1000 million
Eine billiarde = 1000 billion
Eine trilliarde = 1000 trillion
It's the same as in the UK.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

But why should the European number system change form and skip a special name for thousand million? That's so French

Why do you people try to pin the blame for everything you misunderstand on someone other than yourselves? That so American.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lauren Hynde
Why do you people try to pin the blame for everything you misunderstand on someone other than yourselves? That so American.

Actually, both systems originated in French academic circles... there just happen to have been a couple systems of number-naming. Britain and Germany went with one, America went with the other.

Our system is much simpler and more regular.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Actually, both systems originated in French academic circles... there just happen to have been a couple systems of number-naming. Britain and Germany went with one, America went with the other.

Our system is much simpler and more regular.

LOL

Yeah, both systems originated in French academic circles, except the one used in the US is a deturpation of the one that makes sense.

How is it more simple? By using names that don't mean what they intend to mean?

How is it more regular? If the US logic is based in 1000 and 000 increases, the word million is the oddball, and the whole -illion thing makes no sense. It should be:

1,000 = thousand
1,000,000 = bithousand (i.e. 1000^2)
1,000,000,000 = trithousand (i.e. 1000^3)
1,000,000,000,000 = quadrithousand (i.e. 1000^4)

 

[foehn]

to simple or not to simple...

I've laughed out loud, enjoying this thread!

In my humble opinion, all the "systems" I've seen described here are simple and logical enough. They're just different, when it comes down to linguistic terms... and that takes us back to the original post. I'm more comfortable with the U. S. language designations of number names, but merely because of extensive familiarity.

It's a language thing... The values of the numbers don't change, but language doesn't like to be so simple! Is that why we can have so much fun with it?

Understood in those terms, there are other interesting questions I don't have the answers to. Do the same language conventions apply to fractions in all these countries? What is a googolplex (10^100) in each language? What countries besides Mexico use a comma instead of a period to indicate decimal numbers?

Is it true, world-wide, that some infinities are bigger than others? (Hey, that would make a nice title for something...)

 

[English Lady]

when I become a millionaire then I'll worry about numbers that big


right now managing to get up to a few hundred is all i need to manage!

 

[TheEarl]

OK, people, here's the deal

In UK, France, Germany, Portugal (all over Europe, I expect), the names come from the power of a million. That's what the names mean: a billion is a million squared, a trillion is a million cubed and so forth. This would be self-evident if anyone in the US knew anything about Latin.


1,000,000 = one million
1,000,000,000 = one thousand millions (US billion)
1,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000^2 = one billion (US trillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000 = one thousand billions (US quadrillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000^3 = one trillion (US quintillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = one thousand trillions (US sextillion)
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000^4 = one quadrillion (US septillion)
...


Come on, admit it. Our way is the only one that makes sense.


PS:
Snoop, In German
Eine milliarde = 1000 million
Eine billiarde = 1000 billion
Eine trilliarde = 1000 trillion
It's the same as in the UK.

Thank you Lauren. Learn something new every day.

The Earl

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: to simple or not to simple...

Understood in those terms, there are other interesting questions I don't have the answers to. Do the same language conventions apply to fractions in all these countries? What is a googolplex (10^100) in each language? What countries besides Mexico use a comma instead of a period to indicate decimal numbers?

Well, here in Portugal, I have always been baffled by your fixation with fractions. Yes, we use them, and the conventions seem to be the same, but why do you use them in situations such as, "the Dow Jones fell today by three-fifths of one percent". "Percent" already is a fraction; why using fractions within fractions? Wouldn't it be easier (and more practical) to say 0.6%?

The googol was a madeup name and isn't a part of any system, so it means the same number everywhere.

We also use commas as decimal symbol:
1234,5 - one thousand and two hundred and thirty-four and a half (no dots as thousand markers)

Dates: dd-mm-yyyy

Before the Euro, we used the $ sign as a decimal symbol in currency:
123$45 - one hundred and twenty-three escudos and forty-five cents

Now, the convention is:
€123,45 - one hundred and twenty-three euros and forty-five cents

 

[TheEarl]

Re: Re: to simple or not to simple...

The googol was a madeup name and isn't a part of any system, so it means the same number everywhere.

There's a cute story with a mathematician's baby and the noises they'd make and that's why it's got that nickname. Don't remember what the proper mathematical name is - presumably it differs from US to Europe.

The Earl

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: Re: Re: to simple or not to simple...

There's a cute story with a mathematician's baby and the noises they'd make and that's why it's got that nickname. Don't remember what the proper mathematical name is - presumably it differs from US to Europe.

The Earl

Well, in Europe it would be ten thousand 16-illions (whatever that is called ) and in the US it would be ten 32-illions.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... Our system is much simpler and more regular.

Face it Joe, we WANT to be known of as billionaires — that’s Fame!

Outside the states, they would rather have the money and the anonymity of being one in a crowd of people with more than a couple million.

 

[SnoopDog]

I never thought this thread would actually cause quite a nice discussion. I guess it'S not such a small deal anyways.

Snoopy

 

[fairysong]

I never thought this thread would actually cause quite a nice discussion. I guess it'S not such a small deal anyways.

Snoopy

well little beagle, if u thought u were confused by the American, German and English way u would have gone crazy if u had to live in India, Bangladesh, Japan and well few others. Appears that while the numbers and zeros are the same everywhere the names or words people call them are not.

every time i move to a new place i just get more confused. Now i just ask how many zero's are involved.

fairysong

 

[SnoopDog]

well little beagle, if u thought u were confused by the American, German and English way u would have gone crazy if u had to live in India, Bangladesh, Japan and well few others. Appears that while the numbers and zeros are the same everywhere the names or words people call them are not.

every time i move to a new place i just get more confused. Now i just ask how many zero's are involved.

fairysong

Frankly I have the utmost respect for Asians that learn the languages of Americans/Europeans or vice versa. I can't figure for the life of me how they do that. All those different signs and letters. Awesome.

Snoopy

 

[fairysong]

Frankly I have the utmost respect for Asians that learn the languages of Americans/Europeans or vice versa. I can't figure for the life of me how they do that. All those different signs and letters. Awesome.

Snoopy

No kidding, asian languages are so hard to learn. Whenever my dad moved to a new place i was stuck not knowing the language and it took forever to get to know the basics.

fs

 

[TheEarl]

Frankly I have the utmost respect for Asians that learn the languages of Americans/Europeans or vice versa. I can't figure for the life of me how they do that. All those different signs and letters. Awesome.

Snoopy

I can speak basic Japanese and understand basic Japanese. I can read and write Japanese in romaji (The words written in Arabic letters). However, kanji leaves me running away screaming atm. Would require more time than I have to learn to write proper Japanese.

The Earl

 

[gauchecritic]

I would add to Gauche's comments the suspicion that "geld" might be the older term for money - at least, I have always seen blood price rendered "wergeld" or "weregild."

Shanglan

Also from that sort of period comes the term Danegeld. During regular invasions by Norsemen this was the money that was taken from locals (quite often previous Norsemen who'd settled here).
Pre-1066, fascinating period when we had a change of kings weekly who were then invaded by their own descendants to take the throne. (There were quite a few kingdoms to choose from at that time) Mercia being the largest: from Alex de Cok's house down to a few miles past mine.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I can speak basic Japanese and understand basic Japanese. I can read and write Japanese in romaji (The words written in Arabic letters). However, kanji leaves me running away screaming atm. Would require more time than I have to learn to write proper Japanese.

The Earl

I can read and write using hiragana and katakana, but never even dared attempt more than 3 or 4 kanji characters.

 

[gauchecritic]

Ideograms. Fascinating. Saw a bit of a programme a while ago.

Each word representing a picture. Then joining two pictures together to make another word.

Having to be almost an artist to be able to write the word woman. Maybe two lines of varying thickness. Then another simplified line to represent child. Paint them in the same space and make the word mother.

Fascinating.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, you can always just refer to 10^9 as a giga-whatever and avoid all the confusion. But I notice the SI system changes prefixes every 10^3, which is what the American system does.

http://www.knowledgedoor.com/1/Unit_Conversion/Power_Prefixes.htm

I also notice the addition of Zepto for 10^-21, and Yocto for 10^-24.

You've got to love Yocto.

---dr.M.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I also notice the addition of Zepto for 10^-21 ...

Wasn't he one of the Marx brothers?

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

Mab., that's cool to know. I like "femto" (10 to the -15th). P.