Someone 1-bombed my latest story and killed my red H!

[FEELINGLUCKYPUNK]

About the worst you can do to guarantee low scores is post comments to thjis board. Readers hate every opinion. and caregory

 

[SimonDoom]

Personally, I give a 5* if I liked it, or nothing if it wasn't my cup of Bondi Loose Leaf Tisane. Reason being, my '4' could pull down a story that others are enjoying and rating more highly than I might. Placing no vote does no harm to the scores being placed by other readers.


I think the most productive thing we can do to support each other in that instance, where a story isn't our thing, is leave a comment saying what we liked (if anything) and then give private feedback on what could be improved.

It's hard enough to find your readership here - we want to make sure we're not unintentionally hijacking new writers. I think established writers sometimes forget the days before they had followers who support their work.

I struggle with this a bit, and in practice I sometimes don't vote for this same reason.

But in theory, it doesn't make sense, because if everyone did this the system wouldn't work. The sensible thing to do is to vote the same way you would want everyone else to vote -- honestly giving one's opinion, so long as it isn't vindictive or stupid or done for an improper purpose. If everyone did this the system would work better. If the authors, out of a desire not to hurt fellow authors, don't vote, then they leave the downvoting to others, and actually leave the system more vulnerable to manipulation and strange voting.

 

[rutger5]

As usual, theory isn't the same as 'reality'.

At Lit, the Red H indicates if a story is good or not. There is only one way to indicate you like a story, by giving a 5. All other votes are downvoting, in different gradations.

If the Red H would be given at a score of 3, and a 4 would be above average, it would have been easier to provide sensible voting.

Ruben is correct with what he said. No one should feel pressured to give a higher score to a story than they think it deserves but when the general expectation is any story below 4.50 (or higher in some readers' estimation) isn't worth reading then a 4 vote is a downvote. If a reader could award half star ratings and reserve a 5 vote for what they consider the pinnacle it might be different. But just to have a rating of 4 or above requires a lot of 5 votes to get there. The Lit voting guidelines suggests a 4 is a really good story and the reader liked it yet many readers will pass right by it even if its in a genre they like.

 

[SimonDoom]

Ruben is correct with what he said. No one should feel pressured to give a higher score to a story than they think it deserves but when the general expectation is any story below 4.50 (or higher in some readers' estimation) isn't worth reading then a 4 vote is a downvote. If a reader could award half star ratings and reserve a 5 vote for what they consider the pinnacle it might be different. But just to have a rating of 4 or above requires a lot of 5 votes to get there. The Lit voting guidelines suggest a 4 is a really good story and the reader liked it yet many readers will pass right by it even if its in a genre they like.

I like the idea of a voting system that would enable a reader to give votes in increments of .5. That system might encourage readers reluctant to downvote to choose between two votes that still would give a story a red H. The problem right now is that the red H cutoff lies between a perfect score and a score that for some readers is disqualifying. There's no way to give a story a score that's between the two. That system might encourage more voting by authors who are presently reluctant to vote as they really feel.

 

[Voboy]

I like the idea of a voting system that would enable a reader to give votes in increments of .5. That system might encourage readers reluctant to downvote to choose between two votes that still would give a story a red H. The problem right now is that the red H cutoff lies between a perfect score and a score that for some readers is disqualifying. There's no way to give a story a score that's between the two. That system might encourage more voting by authors who are presently reluctant to vote as they really feel.

I like Ruben’s idea better. Moving the Red H threshold to 4 would mean a four is no longer a downvote. Fives could then be reserved for only the special ones. Seems less cumbersome than half-stars, and simple is often better.

In practice, though, trolls would find a way to be trollin’ no matter what.

 

[SimonDoom]

I like Ruben’s idea better. Moving the Red H threshold to 4 would mean a four is no longer a downvote. Fives could then be reserved for only the special ones. Seems less cumbersome than half-stars, and simple is often better.

In practice, though, trolls would find a way to be trollin’ no matter what.

Agreed about the trolls. This won't take care of that. But a change may encourage more non-trolls to vote.

Ruben's idea is cleaner, but the disadvantage is that it completely changes the scale from what it's been historically, and there are two problems with that. One is that you can no longer compare the scores of old stories with new stories, whereas you can if you keep the Red H level the same but allow more fine-grained voting. The other is that longtime readers may be reluctant to adjust their personal grading scales, and you'll just get a lot more Red H stories, making the Red H less meaningful and helpful as a guide for distinguishing stories. As it stands right now, 25% to 30% of stories on average get Red Hs, so it's not that exclusive a club. If you lower the Red H to 4, the result may simply be that half of the stories will get Red Hs, and that's not helpful.

All of this is mildly fun but mostly idle talk, I suppose, because I don't get the sense that change is on the horizon.

 

[Voboy]

The change in scale will never happen, as readers are used to the current type of voting. You cannot change that behaviour. I was talking about a 'Perfect World'

I know.

But I still like the idea.

 

[RejectReality]

The suggestion SR always had was to create a second graduation of H, perhaps an orange one, that represented stories between 4.0 and 4.5.

That would cover a lot of stories, and make it harder for trolls to knock you out of H territory, which would result in them leaving more clues to their shenanigans.

His alternative suggestion was eliminating the H altogether, letting the score stand alone. Keep in mind, scores weren't available in many places when the H was introduced. Now, the score is there virtually everywhere. The H could be eliminated and remove that easy target for trolls, while causing readers to examine the listings more carefully, perhaps discovering things they might have normally skipped over because they don't have that red H bling.

 

[SimonDoom]

The suggestion SR always had was to create a second graduation of H, perhaps an orange one, that represented stories between 4.0 and 4.5.

That would cover a lot of stories, and make it harder for trolls to knock you out of H territory, which would result in them leaving more clues to their shenanigans.

His alternative suggestion was eliminating the H altogether, letting the score stand alone. Keep in mind, scores weren't available in many places when the H was introduced. Now, the score is there virtually everywhere. The H could be eliminated and remove that easy target for trolls, while causing readers to examine the listings more carefully, perhaps discovering things they might have normally skipped over because they don't have that red H bling.

But this would work only if readers had the ability fully to search for stories by score. Right now, we can't do that. You can't run a search for, say, Erotic Couplings stories published over the last two years with scores over 4.6. That would be a very helpful feature. Being able to search for a Red H story is a rougher substitute for it, but it's very useful if you cannot search fully by score.

 

[JerseyGirlDownUnder]

His alternative suggestion was eliminating the H altogether, letting the score stand alone. Keep in mind, scores weren't available in many places when the H was introduced. Now, the score is there virtually everywhere. The H could be eliminated and remove that easy target for trolls, while causing readers to examine the listings more carefully, perhaps discovering things they might have normally skipped over because they don't have that red H bling.

I find this interesting because until I started writing, I never saw a Red H. They don't exist in the Android app.... and I was so appalled by the format on the website version of Lit that I just stuck with the app. That said, the app is very limited... no Red H, no idea how many people have read a story, can't leave or see comments, can't search by author. So you really have to make up your own mind about the internal cutoff of what you're willing to take a stab at reading. Once I find something well written, I go through that author and read just about everything they have written, even if the genre doesn't interest me. But even that technique can be tedious if the author has more than say 30 submissions because even finding the next story is hard.

In general I don't read the new postings.... because they rock up at 10 to a page and it's a pain to scroll through them to find something a couple of days old that is beginning to be rated.

With the app, you have to make a more comprehensive list of favourite authors in order to find anything again. In support of the Red H, if I do a "random" entry into the stories, I generally don't bother reading anything below a 4.4... and that was a self-selected number based on experience.

And THAT makes me laugh because all three of my stories are therefore not worth reading

Also, if anybody knows how I can volunteer to work on the Android app and improve it, I'd be glad to help.

 

[suboots]

It's a tricky subject it's true. I suppose it's difficult to award a 5* to a story that doesn't have all it's ducks in a row. It needs to hit the spot in terms of eroticism, and that means it covers one's own foibles - for me bdsm, but also to have a reasonable plot, passable dialogue and punctuation. I don't bother to read, for example fantasy and Sci-fi, it's just not my thing. The 4.5 hurdle is about right, I have achieved it once in ten attempts. If it was easy it would be pointless.

 

[RejectReality]

Almost all of your reads come from the first couple of days when the story is on the top of the new story listings. Getting people to look more closely at the descriptions and such there without the H bling is what's going to cause people to pay attention to stories they might have overlooked.

Searching by score isn't going to help that at all. It's creating your own personal H.

It's also likely to be the easiest thing to do, so far as changing the code goes, and therefore more likely to happen. Remove the snippets that display the H, and done.

But this would work only if readers had the ability fully to search for stories by score. Right now, we can't do that. You can't run a search for, say, Erotic Couplings stories published over the last two years with scores over 4.6. That would be a very helpful feature. Being able to search for a Red H story is a rougher substitute for it, but it's very useful if you cannot search fully by score.

 

[SimonDoom]

Almost all of your reads come from the first couple of days when the story is on the top of the new story listings. Getting people to look more closely at the descriptions and such there without the H bling is what's going to cause people to pay attention to stories they might have overlooked.

Searching by score isn't going to help that at all. It's creating your own personal H.

It's also likely to be the easiest thing to do, so far as changing the code goes, and therefore more likely to happen. Remove the snippets that display the H, and done.

Generally speaking, I'm opposed to any effort to take tools away from readers -- whether it's the ability to search, or the ability to vote, or the ability to comment -- because of some perceived problem from the standpoint of authors. To me, it runs counter to what the consuming public wants from an internet resource -- the maximum possible ability to tailor the experience to suit one's needs. I don't think it's the site's place to try to steer readers to look more closely at things. The site's job is to maximize the reader's ability to customize his or her reading experience for his or her own purposes and enjoyment. So I see no problem with enabling readers to create their own personal Hs, or to organize site data in any way they see fit.

I'd like to see a more robust search system -- one in which, ideally, readers can customize searches by all possible parameters -- score, date, category, tag use, etc. The job of an internet site is to provide value to the user, and that would provide more value to readers and maximize traffic. There are plenty of Web sites of various kinds out there that do have more robust search systems, so it's definitely doable.

Authors are users, too, but they're much less important than readers (because of their numbers), and altering reader tools in a way that advantages authors but disadvantages readers is always going to be a bad bargain for this site.

 

[RejectReality]

What's disadvantaging readers is missing out on tons of good stories just because they're conditioned to ignore anything without an H. All it takes is one jackoff with a hate-on and a little time on their hands to nuke your red H on that first day — especially when you're new and don't already have a following. By the time the sweeps run, you're outside the honeymoon period, and that H coming back isn't going to get back all the lost reads.

I've got no problem with adding score based search. It just doesn't address the issues of reader conditioning, author angst, and troll enabling that the Hs cause.

The scores would still be there, and people can choose to use them as criteria as they see fit. There just won't be that bright red "look at me!" symbol that makes a story with one get so many more reads than one that's 4.49.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I've skimmed through some categories and it seems that the voting is fairly "generous" on many of them although the comments are a bit sparse. An exception is the Loving Wives section which seems to hit people's nerves. Things get ugly there, including the abundant comments.

Why is there no Loving Husbands category?

 

[SimonDoom]

What's disadvantaging readers is missing out on tons of good stories just because they're conditioned to ignore anything without an H. All it takes is one jackoff with a hate-on and a little time on their hands to nuke your red H on that first day — especially when you're new and don't already have a following. By the time the sweeps run, you're outside the honeymoon period, and that H coming back isn't going to get back all the lost reads.

I've got no problem with adding score based search. It just doesn't address the issues of reader conditioning, author angst, and troll enabling that the Hs cause.

The scores would still be there, and people can choose to use them as criteria as they see fit. There just won't be that bright red "look at me!" symbol that makes a story with one get so many more reads than one that's 4.49.

What no one really knows, I think, is whether voter scoring is the product of conditioning by this site's peculiar features, or whether it reflects the actual preferences of the site's readers. I have no idea, but because of the sheer size of the reading base here I suspect it's more the latter than the former. If I'm right, then we don't have much to complain about. There's no problem to fix, from the site's point of view, even though there are elements that cause grief to some authors.

My recommendation would be to add features, first, see how that goes, and if it seems warranted maybe take away things like the red H. But I suspect people are so accustomed to it that some would be dismayed to see it go away and there's no way the site owners would delete it without confidence that a better tool would replace it.

 

[RejectReality]

It's pretty obvious, really. Look at two stories in the same category. One has an H, and the other is barely below it. The one with the H will have vastly more reads than the one without.

Even better, when a story of yours gets an H on day one, and then loses it, your reads drop off a cliff. If it manages to pop back above that H level and the new story list refreshes to show it before the new day's stories come out, your reads immediately spike. I've watched that happen time and time again over the years.

A story with a 4.80 won't have significantly more reads than one with a flat 4.50, unless it's high enough to hit the toplist.

A significant number of readers use that H as their first criteria after favorite author and category. Because of that impact, losing an H is a serious blow to a story. Because of that, the trolls use it to their advantage to attack. Unless something has hundreds of votes, they can blast it below that H level in minutes, all by themselves, with minimal effort.

It enables trolls, harms authors, and provides only an illusionary benefit to readers, because it's so easy to manipulate in the moment, even if the damage is removed over the longer term.

It's time for the H to go, in my opinion.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's pretty obvious, really. Look at two stories in the same category. One has an H, and the other is barely below it. The one with the H will have vastly more reads than the one without.

Even better, when a story of yours gets an H on day one, and then loses it, your reads drop off a cliff. If it manages to pop back above that H level and the new story list refreshes to show it before the new day's stories come out, your reads immediately spike. I've watched that happen time and time again over the years.

A story with a 4.80 won't have significantly more reads than one with a flat 4.50, unless it's high enough to hit the toplist.

A significant number of readers use that H as their first criteria after favorite author and category. Because of that impact, losing an H is a serious blow to a story. Because of that, the trolls use it to their advantage to attack. Unless something has hundreds of votes, they can blast it below that H level in minutes, all by themselves, with minimal effort.

It enables trolls, harms authors, and provides only an illusionary benefit to readers, because it's so easy to manipulate in the moment, even if the damage is removed over the longer term.

It's time for the H to go, in my opinion.

Those are all good points, I have to admit.

 

[lovecraft68]

But if you ditch the H they'll target scores to push people from top lists. Going to ditch scores? Going to ditch green E's which are like bulls eyes? Going to drop the W's from any contest wins?

How about drop voting period? To sound like JBJ everyone is on equal footing and no story makes another feel bad by being or simply scoring better. Where would it stop? The trolls will always trolls haters always gonna hate.

I don't so much think its time for the H or other things to go as it is for anonymous to go. It could also be time for the site to actually crack down and tighten things up to stop serial bombers.

Note, I'm not putting those suggestions out to debate or argue about them. Its my opinion on what would help here.

But they do have one thing in common with RR's suggestion of ditching the H and that's one simple fact.

The site would have to look into it, think about and actually do it.

So let's just keep spinning the wheels of conversations like this because nothing is going to change.

 

[RejectReality]

The point of removing Hs is that they're highly visible, easy targets. A story sitting at 4.50 needs only a single vote to tank it below H.

If readers aren't skipping over entries looking for that H, they're more likely to pay attention to the title and descriptions. Thus, they're using information the author has provided as an attractor, which can't be manipulated. How often you get read should be more determined by your wordsmithing than factors beyond your control.

That's just the main new list. Score will probably still be a strong factor on the hub lists, where it's easy to scan in a column. It should still quell the Pavlovian response of salivating at the sight of a bright red H, though. 4.49, 4.50, and 4.51 don't look all that different when they're side-by-side with nothing else setting them apart.

Green Es and Blue Ws can't be removed by anyone else. Once earned, they're yours, and forever serve as an attractor, regardless of what trolls do to the score.

Stopping trolling before it happens is impossible. In a world where someone can have a new IP address in a minute with zero technical skill, and a new email address in another minute, all you do is play whack-a-mole to no avail. The best you can hope to do is inconvenience a troll, not stop them. The more aggressive the measures you use, the more you affect the experience of people who aren't bad actors, until you reach a saturation point where it has a negative outcome of chasing away regular users who are tired of jumping through hoops.

And the trolls will still be there.

But if you ditch the H they'll target scores to push people from top lists. Going to ditch scores? Going to ditch green E's which are like bulls eyes? Going to drop the W's from any contest wins?

How about drop voting period? To sound like JBJ everyone is on equal footing and no story makes another feel bad by being or simply scoring better. Where would it stop? The trolls will always trolls haters always gonna hate.

I don't so much think its time for the H or other things to go as it is for anonymous to go. It could also be time for the site to actually crack down and tighten things up to stop serial bombers.

Note, I'm not putting those suggestions out to debate or argue about them. Its my opinion on what would help here.

But they do have one thing in common with RR's suggestion of ditching the H and that's one simple fact.

The site would have to look into it, think about and actually do it.

So let's just keep spinning the wheels of conversations like this because nothing is going to change.

 

[JasonClearwater]

I posted this thread for three primary reasons, none of which was to start a debate on how the site's run.

1) Because everyone gets trolled, and yet so many here say 'Don't anger the troll, or else!'. Or else what? I'll get... trolled? Since I started getting more popular, I've been trolled harder, which re-confirms in my mind that I've already pissed this person off, and the sweeps and eventual scores over time bear that out.

So, fuck the troll. What does it matter if I get fewer reads, no one pays me for them. On the day I want to make money from my writing, it won't be via erotica. This is just my playground.

2) To keep alive the truth for any new authors lurking, who think they've done something horribly wrong. Because in most cases, no, they haven't.

3) To encourage a sense of community. When I first came to these boards, a couple of other authors saw me wandering about, bumping into things, and offered their support. If they hadn't, I might have wandered off, and missed out on exploring some interesting writing here.

The boards then felt hostile to newcomers, like a Wild West saloon, where everyone eyed you with suspicion. Maybe it's the brony in me, maybe it's the drugs [it's the drugs], but this place needs a good support system to cancel out the trolls roaming the wasteland, and I wanted to encourage that.

End of the day, I don't think any of us should quake in fear because some knobend wants to drag the scores down.

Tony Stark said it best:

https://media.giphy.com/media/8rFvAxQiPnNwSNKNpx/giphy.gif

 

[RejectReality]

Few authors actually come to the boards, though. I'm sure everyone remembers that all the admonitions to "ride it out, it will get better" meant jack when you first started, too.

This is worth considering and discussion for their sake, IMO.

It doesn't mean anyone has to stop poking fun at the trolls and their neverending quest to be the most massive bellend in the crowd, or to stop comforting authors who are being attacked with the knowledge that it will in fact get better as they build their readership.

 

[lovecraft68]

The point of removing Hs is that they're highly visible, easy targets. A story sitting at 4.50 needs only a single vote to tank it below H.

If readers aren't skipping over entries looking for that H, they're more likely to pay attention to the title and descriptions. Thus, they're using information the author has provided as an attractor, which can't be manipulated. How often you get read should be more determined by your wordsmithing than factors beyond your control.

That's just the main new list. Score will probably still be a strong factor on the hub lists, where it's easy to scan in a column. It should still quell the Pavlovian response of salivating at the sight of a bright red H, though. 4.49, 4.50, and 4.51 don't look all that different when they're side-by-side with nothing else setting them apart.

Green Es and Blue Ws can't be removed by anyone else. Once earned, they're yours, and forever serve as an attractor, regardless of what trolls do to the score.

Stopping trolling before it happens is impossible. In a world where someone can have a new IP address in a minute with zero technical skill, and a new email address in another minute, all you do is play whack-a-mole to no avail. The best you can hope to do is inconvenience a troll, not stop them. The more aggressive the measures you use, the more you affect the experience of people who aren't bad actors, until you reach a saturation point where it has a negative outcome of chasing away regular users who are tired of jumping through hoops.

And the trolls will still be there.

Your point about the W and E is valid as far as they're there for keeps, but the scores can be badly affected. The W and E will catch readers eyes, but of they look at the score it could turn into...guess the story sucks, or they cheated to get it.

That would be a minority, but we know they're out there.

A lot of people use the top lists too, with the assumption everything on it is a good story, so even without an H people will just start banging away on scores. There will always be something for these troglodytes to target.

Its funny because I've always chosen what I've read here by category I'm in the mood for then looking at titles and tags. If they sound good I'll look at it. I never realized how in the minority I am by going by things other than score or H's etc....

I was being a little sarcastic before, but reality is the only way to never have trolls is to not have any type of scoring at all.

Then it would be more hate filled comments than ever before because that will be their only outlet.

So the only answer is....authors have to deal with what we've always dealt with and that's low life trolls who get a thrill out of bombing stories because we can talk all we want it won't change.

If the H is that important to people they can turn off their voting as soon as they get one.

And wow does that piss off the trolls

 

[RejectReality]

What little I read nowadays, it's always the title and description that gets me. If someone uses something clever enough, I'll even hit a category I'm not particularly interested in.

One big difference between Hs, toplists, Es, and Ws is that the latter three are far more rare. Almost everybody experiences the loss of an H.

Trolls can attack E and W stories, but the losses aren't as relevant. Sweeps will wipe out a lot of that damage, and it doesn't have the potential to kill your readership during that critical first couple of days. The Ws have already been through their honeymoon period and even the trickle-down by the time they're marked, and Es are at the very top of the new story list as well as being the rarest of markings.

Toplists are much the same. Getting knocked off or down can slow the activity of your story, but the next time the toplist gets swept, you're likely to pop right back in there and get your surge back. You've already had your largest swell of day-one readers by the time the toplist updates to show you there the first time.

Even the most experienced and jaded author probably has to admit there's a big difference between how you feel when a story goes from 4.51 to 4.50 and one that goes from 4.50 to 4.49 and loses that H.

Get rid of the H, and they're equal.

Imagine Lit with that huge source of discouraging angst gone. Imagine trolls screaming in impotent fury when they can't draw that quick, visceral reaction from authors that wiping out an H causes. Imagine new authors who don't give up because their first story didn't rate at "Hot". Imagine active contributors who don't pack it in when some asshat makes it his personal mission to wipe out every single one of their Hs.

 

[JasonClearwater]

Imagine Lit with that huge source of discouraging angst gone. Imagine trolls screaming in impotent fury when they can't draw that quick, visceral reaction from authors that wiping out an H causes. Imagine new authors who don't give up because their first story didn't rate at "Hot". Imagine active contributors who don't pack it in when some asshat makes it his personal mission to wipe out every single one of their Hs.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens to the next story I post.

My prediction it'll either get trolled into the ground, or the troll will deliberately elevate it in the hopes I'll lock in the red 'h' which will drop the scores after sweeps. Or maybe it'll just get edged for the foreseeable future.

Which will it be, Mz KittyPusheen?

https://media.tenor.com/images/dfceacc548dea84bfcca6e4de0313f4d/tenor.gif

Just remember, sweetheart, any repeated behaviour targeted against an individual makes it easier to adjust the algorithm.