AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
Some People Should Be Sterilized
- Thread starter AppleBiter
- Start date
rgraham666
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Posts
- 43,689
As horrible as this incident was, I don't think we as individuals or a society have the wisdom or the right to decide who can and cannot bear children.
I guarantee, if sterilisation is started up again, like capital punishment, the bulk of it will fall on the poor. The rich and middle class will find loopholes around it.
Is being poor a crime, or genetically linked?
I guarantee, if sterilisation is started up again, like capital punishment, the bulk of it will fall on the poor. The rich and middle class will find loopholes around it.
Is being poor a crime, or genetically linked?
AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
rgraham666 said:
She had enough money to buy a truckload of alcohol and make sure that her baby came into this world fucked up. I don't think it's a question of being poor.
AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
Sunnie said:
*immaturely snickers*
Penelope Street
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,471
Excellent point.AppleBiter said:
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
What about...
The babies who are born addicted to hard drugs
The babies born to a mother with AIDS - and also have AIDS - very common in sub-saharan Africa.
The babies born in Africa who have a 2 out of 5 chance of dying before they are five years old.
The babies in Angers, France who were prostituted by their parents for as little as a packet of cigarettes?
Drunk doesn't seem so bad.
Og
The babies who are born addicted to hard drugs
The babies born to a mother with AIDS - and also have AIDS - very common in sub-saharan Africa.
The babies born in Africa who have a 2 out of 5 chance of dying before they are five years old.
The babies in Angers, France who were prostituted by their parents for as little as a packet of cigarettes?
Drunk doesn't seem so bad.
Og
Colleen Thomas
Ultrafemme
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2002
- Posts
- 21,545
Some people should be sterilized. There are women who have no bussiness getting pregnant. Some who cannot take care of themselves, much less shoulder the responsibility of another.
But who decides?
And if they clean up their acts later in life?
It's easy when confronted with something like this to wish there was some way to prevent it. But the decision isn't ours to make. And it shouldn't be ours or anyone elses.
A situation with no winners and more losers than the sensibilities can stand.
But who decides?
And if they clean up their acts later in life?
It's easy when confronted with something like this to wish there was some way to prevent it. But the decision isn't ours to make. And it shouldn't be ours or anyone elses.
A situation with no winners and more losers than the sensibilities can stand.
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
Child Abuse, Angers, France
French Trial ends
The incident that started this thread seems to me to be a case of inadequacy and incompetence.
The French case, link above, was EVIL.
Og
French Trial ends
The incident that started this thread seems to me to be a case of inadequacy and incompetence.
The French case, link above, was EVIL.
Og
Virtual_Burlesque
Former Ecdysiast
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2004
- Posts
- 4,083
It took an advanced society filled with inequalities and bad policy thirty-seven years to produce Melissa Irene Tanner.
To suppose that sterilization will somehow remedy that society and those condition which brought Tanner to her present place in life, involves giving credence to a breathtaking oversimplification of the situation.
Yes, her actions are reprehensible, but the idea that punishing a badly turned spindle to somehow improve a faulty lathe is absurd.
To suppose that sterilization will somehow remedy that society and those condition which brought Tanner to her present place in life, involves giving credence to a breathtaking oversimplification of the situation.
Yes, her actions are reprehensible, but the idea that punishing a badly turned spindle to somehow improve a faulty lathe is absurd.
R. Richard
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2003
- Posts
- 10,382
Sunnie:Sunnie said:
You can answer your question by looking for a guy carrying THREE burlap bags in the trunk of his car.
[There is an old joke about a sailer who always carried two burlap bags in the trunk of his car. His buddies asked him why. He said if he found a woman who wanted to screw but was too ugly he would put a burlap bag over her head. He was then asked why two burlap bags. "If she is so ugly that one aint enough, I use two!"]
AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
I think some people who have responded to this thread have misunderstood what I am saying. Do I literally think we should sterilize this woman? No, of course not, it's not my decision to make. What I am saying is that people that do this kind of shit shouldn't be allowed to be parents, IMO.
It's not a political thread, I don't do those.
It's not a political thread, I don't do those.
Last edited:
AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
oggbashan said:
Well, since this article didn't cover every possible angle of horrible things that could happen to an infant, I would say these are irrelevant. And if you think that giving a newborn a blood alcohol level of .21 isn't "so bad," I'm glad that you're not a woman who can make that choice.
Virtual_Burlesque
Former Ecdysiast
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2004
- Posts
- 4,083
AppleBiter,
I am fairly certain that you did not INTEND this to be a political thread. I believe your impulse was something closer to: “Look at this. This is so wrong! It SHOULD NOT be.”
I doubt that anyone believes it is a good thing that Melissa Irene Tanner became pregnant. Nor is it likely that she will be found a fit parent to take care of the child, even if she should desire to do so.
The problem was with the wording of your title.
The connotations that arise from the word “sterilization” are freighted with an unfortunate history of bigotry, eugenics, and Nazism.
I am certain that only carelessness with vocabulary was at fault, not your political correctness.
But this is a Writers Forum, so: “Shame on you!”
I am fairly certain that you did not INTEND this to be a political thread. I believe your impulse was something closer to: “Look at this. This is so wrong! It SHOULD NOT be.”
I doubt that anyone believes it is a good thing that Melissa Irene Tanner became pregnant. Nor is it likely that she will be found a fit parent to take care of the child, even if she should desire to do so.
The problem was with the wording of your title.
The connotations that arise from the word “sterilization” are freighted with an unfortunate history of bigotry, eugenics, and Nazism.
I am certain that only carelessness with vocabulary was at fault, not your political correctness.
But this is a Writers Forum, so: “Shame on you!”
rgraham666
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Posts
- 43,689
Virtual_Burlesque said:
That is a damn fine metaphor, VB.
And AppleBiter, I'm afraid that is how the initial post came across, that you did believe this poor woman should be sterilised.
I pity the poor woman in this article. I've been pretty far down and I've known a lot of addicts of one sort or another in my life. Christ, I was married to one. I cannot feel any emotion except pity when I deal with them. They are always people badly hurt by their lives, desperately looking for some small bit of redemption and happiness.
Where their quest leads them doesn't often help.
Stella_Omega
No Gentleman
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Posts
- 39,700
as much as I pity Melissa, I pity the child even more. Fetal Alchohol syndrom is an awful burden and the kid will live with its effects, probably grow to adulthood.
copy and paste from this site
The following Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders (FASD) are caused by drinking alcohol during pregnancy:
Symptoms include small head/body, facial characteristics, brain damage
Some symptoms may not be visible, such as behavior disorders, attention deficits
Alcohol Related Birth Defects include anomalies such as heart defects, sight/hearing problems, joint anomalies, etc.
Alcohol Related Neurodevelopmental Disorders such as attention deficits, behavior disorders, obsessive/compulsive disorder, etc.
FASD: Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders
All of the disorders named above are contained in the spectrum. Full FAS comprises only about 10% of the spectrum. The other 90% may have fewer physical symptoms but are at greater risk for developing serious secondary conditions later.
FAS is the leading cause of mental retardation in western civilization.
But... Most persons with FAS have an IQ in the normal range.
The incidence of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in America is 1.9 cases per 1,000 births (1/500).
Incidence of babies with disabilities resulting from prenatal alcohol exposure: 1/100!
FAS/FAE is a major health issue in western civilization today. More American babies are born with FAS than with Down Syndrome, MD, and HIV combined.
"Alcohol causes more neurological damage to the developing baby than any other substance."
copy and paste from this site
The following Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders (FASD) are caused by drinking alcohol during pregnancy:
Symptoms include small head/body, facial characteristics, brain damage
Some symptoms may not be visible, such as behavior disorders, attention deficits
Alcohol Related Birth Defects include anomalies such as heart defects, sight/hearing problems, joint anomalies, etc.
Alcohol Related Neurodevelopmental Disorders such as attention deficits, behavior disorders, obsessive/compulsive disorder, etc.
FASD: Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders
All of the disorders named above are contained in the spectrum. Full FAS comprises only about 10% of the spectrum. The other 90% may have fewer physical symptoms but are at greater risk for developing serious secondary conditions later.
FAS is the leading cause of mental retardation in western civilization.
But... Most persons with FAS have an IQ in the normal range.
The incidence of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in America is 1.9 cases per 1,000 births (1/500).
Incidence of babies with disabilities resulting from prenatal alcohol exposure: 1/100!
FAS/FAE is a major health issue in western civilization today. More American babies are born with FAS than with Down Syndrome, MD, and HIV combined.
"Alcohol causes more neurological damage to the developing baby than any other substance."
HollyHawkk
Really Experienced
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Posts
- 265
There was a case a while back in Canada where they Jailed a lady because she was sniffing Gas and doing drugs while pregnant. She had 3 or 4 kids already each of her children had serious disabilities. They didn't live with her, the were wards of the Government.
The reason they jailed her was to give this baby a fighting chance to have a normal start in life. She got a lawyer and was released.
I don't know what the answer is... one would think that if you could not provide a child with a quality of life you would take steps to make sure you didn't find yourself in that situation. Is it more education needed. I think that here in Canada we have access to many forms of Birth control. I believe that it is provide free by the health care system if you are unable to afford it.
Maybe sterilization is not the solution No one seems comfortable in making that decision for other people but, I think women who abuse there body's while pregnant must answer for the harm they do to that person. After all it effects that child for the rest of there lives. Many tax dollar are spent caring for thees children,so in turn it becomes all our problems.
The reason they jailed her was to give this baby a fighting chance to have a normal start in life. She got a lawyer and was released.
I don't know what the answer is... one would think that if you could not provide a child with a quality of life you would take steps to make sure you didn't find yourself in that situation. Is it more education needed. I think that here in Canada we have access to many forms of Birth control. I believe that it is provide free by the health care system if you are unable to afford it.
Maybe sterilization is not the solution No one seems comfortable in making that decision for other people but, I think women who abuse there body's while pregnant must answer for the harm they do to that person. After all it effects that child for the rest of there lives. Many tax dollar are spent caring for thees children,so in turn it becomes all our problems.
davidwatts
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2004
- Posts
- 433
AppleBiter said:
Lack of money never seems to stand in the way of getting alcohol, or drugs, or lottery tickets, or tattoos, or cigarettes...
What were her other seven children doing while she was downing the case of beer and what are the chances that they are going to become any different than mom, given the shining example they have?
Them, I feel for.
Colleen Thomas
Ultrafemme
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2002
- Posts
- 21,545
Vb would have you blame society for this woman.
Rob would have you feel pity for her because of her addiction.
Stella would have you feel for the child and hold the woman up to casstigation.
Serious divergance of opinion on what exactly has occured, much less how to deal with it.
I don't blame society. i've seen kids coming from the worst homelife and poverty rise above it and I've sen kids born with the probverbial silver spoon in their mouths turn out rotten through and through.
I'm not going to blame addiction either. I'm adicted to pin killers. When driving, when in situations where being alert is a neccessity, when people depend on me, I can go indefintly without my fix. The consequences of her cutting out the booze can be catastropic in terms of DTs. The consequences of me stopping painkillers is headaces that last days and feel like a rat in trapped in your head and is trying to chew and claw his way out through your eye.
People have to take responsibility for their actions. There should be consequences for her actions and I'm not sure I can say with any certainty involuntariy sterilization isn't a just consequence. At the same time I can't say it is. I can say I don't turst the same governt that brought you 500$ hammers and 800$ toilet seats to make that call.
There is no temporal authority that has the moral rectitude to make that call. In the abscence of such authority, we basically thrust this wrectched woman upon a criminal justice system that is ill equipped to handle her.
The law has certain limitations. Morality does too and ethics and personal responsibility. The vast majority of situations fall within in the sphere of one or in over lapping spheres, but we will, as a people, always be faced with what to do when a case falls into the small space that none of them rightly cover.
It's not against the law to drink.
Neither morals nor ethics require or would allow a clerk to determine if he was selling a case of the beast to the boy friend of a pregnant woman.
An alkie bum has abdicated personal freedom to the booze, and with it, you could argue personal responsibility.
So it sit sin that gray area and is all th emore tragic because of that.
Rob would have you feel pity for her because of her addiction.
Stella would have you feel for the child and hold the woman up to casstigation.
Serious divergance of opinion on what exactly has occured, much less how to deal with it.
I don't blame society. i've seen kids coming from the worst homelife and poverty rise above it and I've sen kids born with the probverbial silver spoon in their mouths turn out rotten through and through.
I'm not going to blame addiction either. I'm adicted to pin killers. When driving, when in situations where being alert is a neccessity, when people depend on me, I can go indefintly without my fix. The consequences of her cutting out the booze can be catastropic in terms of DTs. The consequences of me stopping painkillers is headaces that last days and feel like a rat in trapped in your head and is trying to chew and claw his way out through your eye.
People have to take responsibility for their actions. There should be consequences for her actions and I'm not sure I can say with any certainty involuntariy sterilization isn't a just consequence. At the same time I can't say it is. I can say I don't turst the same governt that brought you 500$ hammers and 800$ toilet seats to make that call.
There is no temporal authority that has the moral rectitude to make that call. In the abscence of such authority, we basically thrust this wrectched woman upon a criminal justice system that is ill equipped to handle her.
The law has certain limitations. Morality does too and ethics and personal responsibility. The vast majority of situations fall within in the sphere of one or in over lapping spheres, but we will, as a people, always be faced with what to do when a case falls into the small space that none of them rightly cover.
It's not against the law to drink.
Neither morals nor ethics require or would allow a clerk to determine if he was selling a case of the beast to the boy friend of a pregnant woman.
An alkie bum has abdicated personal freedom to the booze, and with it, you could argue personal responsibility.
So it sit sin that gray area and is all th emore tragic because of that.
AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
Virtual_Burlesque said:
Carless choice of words? No, my choice of words and I don't step around people, so you may have to get used to that. For instance, I often use the phrase, "Some people should be shot" and I have yet to have someone confuse that for being a serious statement 'cause, I don't know, people say that kind of thing all the time. And it is a writer's forum, where MANY other topics besides writing are discussed. Look around.
Tsk, tsk. Well, now I feel bad. Darn. Bad me. I'm gonna go flog myself . . . hard . . . with a nice, sturdy paddle . . .
Last edited:
AppleBiter
In Cognito
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Posts
- 3,601
Stella_Omega said:
Thank you for saying this. Having known a few of those children, me too.
R. Richard
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2003
- Posts
- 10,382
Dar~ said:
Dar:
Let me attempt to begin to answer your question. There is an old Coppertone tanning comercial where a little dog slightly pulls down the bikini bottom of a quite young girl to reveal her Coppertone tan lines. I presume that they used the young girl so as to eliminate the sexual content.
The Coppertone commercial is, or so I have been told by people in the business, a major turn on for pedophiles. What this should tell you is that pedophiles have a completely different emotional process than your and you will probably never understand what they are thinking or why.
