Society vs Parenting

[destinie21]

I'm starting a new thread gleaned from a comment made on the empathy thread. How many people blame society for the way children and teenagers act out? How many blame parents? How many Think it's a combination? and finally to those who reply do you have kids?

 

[oggbashan]

I blame the parents most.

I have kids.

Society can help to educate parents and potential parents but only parents really influence kids up to age 5. Beyond that it's too late.

Og

 

[Guest]

I'm with Og on this.

It is somewhat of a vicious circle, and it is up to us parents, as individuals, to break that cycle.

I also have children. Two daughters who have just come through their crucial years (under 5.) They are polite, confident, friendly children. They put the manners of most adults to shame. They know right from wrong, and they know how to conduct themselves properly. I know, they are only young, but I do think they've had a very good start in life. Most crucial of all; they are very happy little girls, and they know how much they are loved.

Lou

 

[Guest]

Dest, I voted 'both' because it's impossible to ignore society.

However, I took all responsibility for my sons as children, even when everyone else said I was not at fault (not that they ever did anything criminal or near heinous). I felt to blame if they tripped on a curb or got sick.

I still recall when my first son was three or so and I realized I would not always be able to protect him from the world. It's a terrifying realization in our times. (It was at that age that he began to play with neighbor kids and go to pre-school.)

It's not a simple query you put but of course needs be thought about, and not only by parents.

Perdita

 

[destinie21]

I blame the parents most.

I have kids.

Society can help to educate parents and potential parents but only parents really influence kids up to age 5. Beyond that it's too late.

Og

Really 5 lol

my parents had me in check until I was... Wait they still have me in check lol.

I used to think my mother was tyrant but now I see she was just a good parent. My father was more laid back but in his way he too held me fast to the "right" thing.

When I was a teenager I wanted to do two things desprately. That was dress like I was grown and listen to gansta rap. (I was rebeling) My mother had a different idea. She said no. I would sneak and borrow clothes from my friends and wear them since my parents wouldn't buy them or use my own money to get them.
Everytime my mother saw me in the clothes or saw the clothes anywhere in the house she would cut them up. Eventually my friends stopped loaning me clothes (I had to pay for them too) and I stopped buying them too. Also she would do impromptu visits at school so if I was sneaking arond in some of the things she would not only see me she would call me out. Right there in front of everyone. As far as the cd's she would break them or destroy them. She never said a word after the initial warnings, unless she was making a scene. But I got the message.

Oh my mother is one of those people who says let's just see who gets more embarassed. She really showed up at my school one day dressed in hardly anything (really trampy) also another time it was a robe pajama's and rollers . Needless to say my rebellion was short lived

 

[Guest]

Really 5 lol

my parents had me in check until I was... Wait they still have me in check lol.

I took Og's statement to mean: only parents have an influence on their kids up to that age. After that teachers also have an influence, as do their own peers.

The early years are the crucial years, if they get messed up there's not much hope for later in life. Far too many parents blame the teachers, and take no responsibility for themselves.

Loulou

 

[destinie21]

Oh in that case I agree. BTW I blame both in my own way. But I don't think society is to much at fault.

I said the above but now I'm editing to say I'm not sure anymore.
My parents had the primary infuence on me then when I was 13 my friends sort of infuenced me and I was physically grown but emotionally behind my development. (Don't get me wrong I was mature for my age but still not fully devloped meantally or emotionally.) Still even after my friends and no doubt the media influenced me my parents still were able to step in and say enough is enough. Is that because they were still my primary influence or was it because they thwarted me then and there?

 

[sailorm72003]

Parents, Mostly.

It's the parent's who teach the children how they will respond and react to the media, peer pressure, rebellion, etc. I hope that my kids will make good choices in their lives, because of the influence and example that my wife and I have tried to set.

Certainly they will make mistakes and, I know that we have as well, but overall I am so proud of their thoughtfulness, courtesy and honesty that I about burst.

We have four, by the way, and Perdita is right- its "my fault" if they trip on a curb, cuz I wasn't there to stop them.

Proudly,
Sailor

 

[Chicklet]

Maybe it's the kid, and not the way he/she was raised.

My brother and I have the same parents, we watched the same movies, we went to the same school and had the same teachers. My brother does drugs, gets arrested, doesn't work, lives on the street, while I'm a "good girl" who is never in trouble, has a steady job and plans for the future. Maybe I had some control in how I turned out, and he had some too. Why do we feel we have to blame anyone other than the child himself?



My mom's best friend's brother murdered his wife. Maybe that's just cause he was fucked up, and not cause my mom's friend's parents were bad parents.

 

[destinie21]

Maybe it's the kid, and not the way he/she was raised.

My brother and I have the same parents, we watched the same movies, we went to the same school and had the same teachers. My brother does drugs, gets arrested, doesn't work, lives on the street, while I'm a "good girl" who is never in trouble, has a steady job and plans for the future. Maybe I had some control in how I turned out, and he had some too. Why do we feel we have to blame anyone other than the child himself?



My mom's best friend's brother murdered his wife. Maybe that's just cause he was fucked up, and not cause my mom's friend's parents were bad parents.

true enough. I don't always consider all sides or neither am I aware of other pov as I can only go on my own. Thanks for expanding my horizons a bit.

 

[oggbashan]

My three are now adult. The youngest got married three weeks ago.

I will never stop being their parent and trying to help and protect them. My father didn't stop trying to advise me even in his 90s.

We tried hard to raise them properly. That didn't stop teenage rebellion and behaviour we didn't like. We gritted our teeth and kept loving them just as we had through the terrible twos, the frightful fours, the "I know it all" top juniors and the sibling rivalry.

We are proud of our three. Whatever they do we are still their parents. We will support them whenever they need us. Harder still is to stand aside and watch them make their own mistakes.

We cannot protect them against the world. We can only prepare them for it and pick up the pieces if they get hurt.

All three are now "independent" yet they know their parents are there for them if ...

Now we have to build a life without them.

Og

 

[Icingsugar]

I blame parents. Do it right from the start and kids will be able to dodge most of the screwballs that life throws at the young.

I'd say it worked pretty well with me. Had a solid childhood with folks who knew how to teach me of rights and wrongs without beating me over the head with it. And it seems to have worked. There was hoards and heaps of trouble to get into where I lived out my teenage years. I stayed out of the deep end because Momma had taught me better than that.

I'm don't have any kinds of my own - yet. Check back in about a year, and I'll probably start blaming society.

 

[Icingsugar]

Maybe it's the kid, and not the way he/she was raised.

My brother and I have the same parents, we watched the same movies, we went to the same school and had the same teachers. My brother does drugs, gets arrested, doesn't work, lives on the street, while I'm a "good girl" who is never in trouble, has a steady job and plans for the future. Maybe I had some control in how I turned out, and he had some too. Why do we feel we have to blame anyone other than the child himself?



My mom's best friend's brother murdered his wife. Maybe that's just cause he was fucked up, and not cause my mom's friend's parents were bad parents.

True. As I said, good parenting can cover up for most of the speedbumps and potholes in the road. But not all.

"Why do we feel we have to blame anyone other than the child himself?"

Well, I'm a firm beliver in the "blank page" theory. Aside from a few inherited characteristics, we are what we become.

 

[gauchecritic]

We always encourage our kids to be individual (without taking into account the need to be tribal in teen years). We encourage them to not make the mistakes we made (but what better way to learn than by our/their own mistakes) And however much we deny or resent it we want them to be happier/healthier/cleverer than us (can't do anything about taller, the bastards)

So now comes the politics again. Thatcher's kids have Thatcher's kids. Insolent kids have insolent kids. American kids have American kids.

I can't explain the kids who are truly disgusted by the lifestyle/choices of their parents and become their diametrically opposed offspring. Rebelling by being straight? Doesn't sound right to me.

My kids are the best in the world, even though they will only play modern punk or emo songs in their bands.

It's both. Parents and society. Until the age of 5 we are their only role models. We teach them to think and learn for themselves, from when, they actually do whether we want them to or not.

Gauche

Was supposed to be a rant about under-educated working classes but you all know my views on that.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I blame both, but I blame parents more.

This past week was the first week of school. I'm in a 3rd grade classroom in inner city Boston. I have 1 child who was removed from his home and put into foster care and he has all kinds of issues relating to how his mom screwed him up (including being incredibly needy for any kind of attention). I have two girls who fell asleep in class on friday b/c their parents don't care enough to set limits like bedtimes (my coteacher knows the two families). I have a child who is so far behind that he should be in 5th grade is working on a 2nd grade level b/c he's been homeless on and off and his parents are basically illiterate. I spend all day trying to convince them that school is important and parents can wipe all that away with the careless comment of "school won't do you any good."

Last year I worked in a much different school...more middle class, parents more educated. My two worst behavoir problems were parentally caused too...one acted out for attention b/c his mom remarried, had a baby and ignored him and the other's father had died of cancer and had gotten so used to getting away with everything that she used it as an excuse to act out (why'd you hit that girl? I miss my dad).

We fuck our kids up in millions of ways.

However...

The media is much more violent today. Kids see more glorified violence than I remember seeing just 15 years ago when I was their age (I'm turning 25 next month). The "educational programs' aren't as good or as popular (or maybe I've always been a geek...odds are good on this last one). Obviously the outside world has an influence on the children.

But...
Parents remain the authority. It's your job to set limits, make them eat healthy food, take care of their physcial and emotional well-being (things like, setting a bedtime), and oversee how much of "real world" they see and at what age. I'm not saying put your kid in some weird glass bubble thingy. I AM saying that there's a difference between letting your 12 year old see Freddy vs Jason and letting your 7 year old (who may not understand the difference between fantasy and reality yet) see the same movie.

 

[ffreak]

I blame both, but I blame parents more.

I vote with Delicious on this.
My three were all step-children coming to me at the ages of 7, 9, and 10. Their natural father spent 2 years of their life behind bars for robbing and beating an 80 year old man. He had a cocaine habit, he beat on his wife (now my wife, and I've never been able to get the sucker alone, or he'd really be ex), and he beat on his kids (see the previous paren).

I helped raise those kids, trying to teach them to keep their word, to never start a fight, but to never back down, to take care of their own, and to NEVER EVER hit a woman.

We took them everywhere on the west coast there was to go - as a family. I read them books at the dinner table, they read us books on camping trips.

When the oldest was 16, he decided he needed to visit his father, and he packed-up his top of the line bow, and visited - for the next two years (the bow went to a pawn shop in two weeks for 1/8 of its price).

The next oldest went a year later with his rare, last model made by Weatherby and Browning goose gun. Two days later in the pawn shop.

The girl went two years later.

I thought I'd failed.

But they moved back.

Now, the oldest is 30 and he and his brother have their own construction company and they keep telling me that the biggest mistake of their lives was to try to live with their father. They tell me I taught them how to be the type of men they are now.

All three tell me that they are trying to teach their (7) children as I taught them.

I'm proud of them.

Their natural father taught them all the wrong things.

Society gave them nothing to believe in.

It's parents and society's fault.

But they can make themselves into good people if they want to. Ask my children.

 

[Guest]

This is difficult to say but I speak up when I think it may help. My older son was sexually molested over a period of a year when he was 5 by a friend of his father's (we were separated and their dad had the boys half the time). My son did not tell me this until in his early 20's (he is now 29). It is torturous to think about it still and will pain me for the rest of my life. I knew nothing nor suspected anything but I was his mother so I cannot help but blame myself. (I recall when speaking to my brothers and close friends, after finding out, being surprised that everyone immediately told me it was not my fault. The reasoning does not help.)

My point now. When my adult son and I spoke over time about this experience he told me that after the abuse stopped he was tempted to do the same to his brother (3-1/2 years younger) as had been done to him. He couldn't understand why but at the age of 7 he chose not to do it. I will not take any of the credit for his great decision, but it consoles me when I think about it. It is a sad pride I take in this.

Just to protect myself, please no one ask me anything or comment to me personally. I only wrote this to show something of how a parent mey be helpless in protecting their children, and how a child can overcome the worst of society.

Perdita

 

[The_Fool]

I blame both, but also consider it to be a vicious cycle between parents and society. I blame parents because of the influence they should have on their Children, but much of that lack of positive influence is because of society, now most families require two and three incomes to “make it” and children are raised by care providers. I blame society because of all the negative reinforcement in the form of TV, movies and events but those events would have less impact if parents filtered that content before it reached the child. Not so long ago, families were more tightly knit with parents, grandparent, aunts and uncles living in very close proximity forming an extended family. With the shift away from agrarian societies, now extended families are gangs. It’s almost a chicken and egg argument.

 

[Sabledrake]

I blame both, seeing it as the parents' job to counteract the effects of society/media. We have one kid. Our biggest triumph when she was a baby was being able to successfully shield her from the whole Barney and Teletubbies crazes. Now, we're just glad she's a tomboy and not into boy bands like so many of her little classmates.

Sabledrake

 

[ffreak]

You know, this is going to sound crass, which I prefer to it being taken as funny, considering the topic.

You know the difference between the parent of a teenager and a grandparent?

9 months.

Like the campaign says, folks. Talk to the kids. Talk is the anti-drug, the anti-smoking, the anti-drinking, the anti-sex, the anti-STD. And it let's 'em know you love them.

Sometimes these lines help keep me sane:
"Don't ever ask them why,
If they would tell you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh,
And know they love you."

 

[Jenny _S]

I've thought about this quite a lot since this afternoon. I still stick by my comments.

Parents fail in their parental duties by not enforcing disipline on their children.

Society which is the schools and legal establishment stand up for the "rights of minors" even to the point of prosecuting non-existant claims of child abuse brought by rotten little kids for reasons of revenge.

Ultimately who suffers? We all do.

 

[AmericanWench]

Parent's vs. society

I've read some good points in here, but what about the fact that many Parental rights are being stripped away, by the "good meaning" society? Parents can no longer spank their children. Well, they can, but risk visits by the All knowing CPS...Children are well aware of the backing of society they have in acting out. It is the children in the families that have the power now, not the parents. I think society is taking the place, forcefully, of the parent.
That is not to say, that there are many parents out there, who, to say the least, lack any form of parenting skills
I think the result, of both factors, are very confused and unruley children.
Yes, I have children 1 grown, 2 still miinors.

 

[Madame Manga]

Parents remain the authority. It's your job to set limits, make them eat healthy food, take care of their physcial and emotional well-being (things like, setting a bedtime), and oversee how much of "real world" they see and at what age.

There are too many parents who take the easy way out. They have not grown up themselves--and I'm not talking about teenagers. Some parents don't want to be the bad guy, or to be IN AUTHORITY. (Authority is inherently evil--didn't they teach you that in public school?) Being in charge of someone takes work and self-discipline and a sense of responsibility. It is harder on the boss than on the subordinate. You can't stay up all night watching DVDs or going out to clubs or toking (or WRITING) when you have to get up in the morning, cook oatmeal and find all the shoes and school backpacks before the bus comes.

Childhood now extends into the forties and fifties, it seems. We can't take charge of our children if it means letting go of the illusion of carefree youth, and youth and innovation are now the highest goods. Experience? Work ethic? We aren't like OUR parents, we cry! They did it all wrong! Moral certitude doesn't exist--everything is relative. Raising your children like wild beasts--hey, that's just an equally valid alternative lifestyle.

MM

 

[destinie21]

I can only say you don't wake up knowing how to parent. The alleged adults suprise me a kid will do as much as you let them.
Yes spankings are being "outlawed" but there's other ways. When I was a nanny I certainly wasn't going to even go there, but believe me those kids respected me and their mother(who when I first came to know them got no respect). She didn't know how to discipline because she never really had discipline. Anyway when the kids would smart off or whatever from age 8 on up they would get laps around the outside of the house. the younger kids got time out.

They'd be mad as hell when I'd say 100 laps. and try and drag their feet and walk but they'd be right out there in the dark if need be , I don't care if you takes all day 100 laps. And if they cheated 20 more ontop of the 100 they had to start over with. Pushups and sit ups worked too for lesser offenses. They called it bootcamp but You can bet they staightend out. They didn't wan't to be doing that.

oh and if you got in trouble at school it was 50 sqaut- thrusts at top speed and then laps.

ps: there were nine kids.
you could tell the "trouble maker" he was the most fit. But after awhile they were very well behaved. Also I used positive reinforcment like sleepovers w/friends to reward them. Kids want and need balance.

 

[AmericanWench]

Well, there are many different ways to excersize one's authourity...but I would say, that even your way would warrant some raised eyebrows with CPS, and other agencies...
Personally, I used taking away of privledges (I know that is spelled wrong..lol, I am sooo tired)..My point being, society is taking away so many of the parent's authority, that it will come to a point when even "time out" (which personally, I found ineffective, but it depends on the child, I guess) will be viewed as "harsh"..
Parents must be very creative in asserting their authority, and maintaining that authority. I have been parenting for almost 24 years, and believe me, I've had to come up with some pretty creative things..lol. However, I am very proud to say, that I have a 23 year old son who turned out to be a good man, responsible, good natured, and to this day, does not raise his voice to me...He will disagree, we debate, but he will not raise his voice to me. Nor has he ever called me "bitch"..(in my presence anyway.. ) So, it can be done.