So where is the proof that W. Bush stole Florida?

[WriterDom]

The liberal press has had two years to provide an answer. We're still waiting.

 

[Phoenyx]

The electoral system has outlived its usefullness.
This election proved it.

The US needs to move to a system where the person who gets the most votes wins.

 

[WriterDom]

The electoral system has outlived its usefullness.
This election proved it.

The US needs to move to a system where the person who gets the most votes wins.

Yeah, fuck the States. Lets do what California and New York want

 

[CoolCucumber]

I seem to remember seeing a news report on one of the network news shows sometime back around the holidays showing that the Florida Sentinl (sp?) had done a thourough hand count of all ballots from Florida, and, if all dimpled, hanging chad, etc. ballots for gore were counted, and all of the same for W. were counted, that W. carried the state by 48 votes, or something very close to that number. I wish I could remember all of the specifics, but I do remember seeing the show, and the numerous people interviewed for the piece.
-CoolCucumber

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Most votes....

Actually Phoenyx, I think you should study the electoral college and the reasons for it's institution before jumping in with rash general statments!

The present system provides a level of equinamity to those living in rural and isolated areas without completly discounting the power of the large cities.

Think about it!

RhumbRunner

 

[Scruffy]

Yeah, fuck the States. Lets do what California and New York want

Yeah! Let's forget that everyone's vote should count equally. Let's fuck the urban voters as much as we can! Why should California and New York decide the president when Wyoming and South Dakota are up to the task.

 

[Jabo 69]

The Liberal media and hardly anyone else for that matter ever talks about the fact that Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan decided the final outcome of the election..They hate third parties that's why they won't talk about it..Thank God they(Nader and Buchanan)kept Gore out of the White House....
How many of you knew that Pat Buchanan had a black woman(Ezola Foster) for a Vice Presidential running mate???No one seems to want to talk about that either...Why did the Liberal media supress that news??
Why did the Democrats and Republicans keep Nader and Buchanan out of the National Debates???
What are they afraid of???

 

[p_p_man]

Proof? You want proof...

That's one thing Bush is good at not leaving anything behind but a nasty smell..

From memory:

His brother said on TV (I heard it) "I can't do anything more to help him now"

That woman who had a final say was in Bush' camp.

Ballot papers turning up late from overseas voters, or not at all.

The confusion over the listing of the names on the ballot papers.

The ballot paper's technology that didn't work. So in the end it came down to officials scutinising each paper to see where the holes were punched.

Some sort of mix up with the elderly women in a Jewish Nursing Home.

Ballot papers going missing from various State locations.

Anyone of the above should have stopped the count.

Mugabe had a good teacher...

ppman

 

[Azwed]

The Liberal media and hardly anyone else for that matter ever talks about the fact that Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan decided the final outcome of the election..They hate third parties that's why they won't talk about it..Thank God they(Nader and Buchanan)kept Gore out of the White House....
How many of you knew that Pat Buchanan had a black woman(Ezola Foster) for a Vice Presidential running mate???No one seems to want to talk about that either...Why did the Liberal media supress that news??
Why did the Democrats and Republicans keep Nader and Buchanan out of the National Debates???
What are they afraid of???

I dont think the media supressed the face that Buchanan had a black woman as a VP. It was pretty big news for a while. I heard it mentioned several time over the course of a couple of weeks. This was in normal network newscasts too. Anyone who actually reads the paper would have heard about it for sure.

Buchanan was a minor third party candiatate who hijacked the reform party so of course any news about him was not the big.

 

[Scruffy]

Re: Most votes....

Actually Phoenyx, I think you should study the electoral college and the reasons for it's institution before jumping in with rash general statments!

The present system provides a level of equinamity to those living in rural and isolated areas without completly discounting the power of the large cities.

Think about it!

RhumbRunner

See what that graph implies, and this is where your reading of the electoral system falls apart, is that equal representation should be given to an area in Montana, where the population will be, what, 20, 000 to an equal area in New York that would hold 200,000.

At the end of the day the truth of the matter is this. More voting Americans thought that Al Gore would be a better leader than Bush.

Bush is president because of an arcane and outdated political model whose true purpose was to take power away from the common man.

 

[Scruffy]

How many of you knew that Pat Buchanan had a black woman(Ezola Foster) for a Vice Presidential running mate???No one seems to want to talk about that either...Why did the Liberal media supress that news??

Can you spell tokenization?

Sure, I knew you....

No, you probably can't.

 

[Azwed]

Additional Info about the ballot counting. Depending on the standards used by the counters either Gore or Bush would have won. Either way the margin was so close that it was well inside the margin of error. From a statistical stand point the election was too close to call.

The election process and the Electoral college both need to be reformed.

Getting rid of the college is not going to happen any time soon if ever but something needs to be done. Perhaps the college should be modified in the way that Main and Nebraska have it set up. Each congresional district is its own seperate entity and is worth one vote. The entire state is worth two votes because of the two senators.

Her is an example.

A state with eleven congresional districts could be split up like this.

Bush wins five counties so he gets their five votes.
Gore wins four counties so he gets their four votes.
Nader wins one county and gets one vote.
Pat wins one county and gets one vote.


Now all that is left is the two votes for winning the whole state. In this example let us say that Gore won most of his counties by a wider margin then Bush and also had a fairly strong showing in the counties won by Pat and Nader. This gives him enough votes to beat Bush for the overall state vote.

So the break down for this state is.

Bush = 5 electoral votes.
Gore = 6 electoral votes.
Nader = 1 vote.
Pat = 1 vote.

This also gives minor/third parties a better chance of being represented in the electoral college. The only major problem is that this increases the possibility of one canditate not getting a majority of the electoral votes. That would send the election to the house.

 

[Scruffy]

Getting rid of the college is not going to happen any time soon if ever but something needs to be done. Perhaps the college should be modified in the way that Main and Nebraska have it set up. Each congresional district is its own seperate entity and is worth one vote. The entire state is worth two votes because of the two senators.


This also gives minor/third parties a better chance of being represented in the electoral college. The only major problem is that this increases the possibility of one canditate not getting a majority of the electoral votes. That would send the election to the house.

Unless, of course, the "going to congress" idea died too. Why the need for a majority of electoral votes?

I like your system but the simple truth of the matter is that the Electoral College can be scrapped and should be buried in the litterbox of crappy ideas.

 

[Azwed]

The way the electoral college is set up now in order to win you must have a simple majority. Which I think is 271 votes right now. If no one gets a simple majority of the votes then the election is thrown into the house and it is decided there. Right now I can't remember if every congressman gets one vote or if every delegation from every state gets one vote. I am pretty sure that every state gets one vote. That means California has exactly as many votes as New Jersey or Idaho.

I dont think you can get rid of the electoral college all at once. In order for it to get done it will have to be taken in stages. Everything that needs to be changed has to be done with constitutional amendmants which require a 2/3's majority. Right now there are enough small states to block an outright change to the system.

Of course you could argue from the other way and say that it is easier to pass one amendmant then two or three. The whole thing is a mess that will probably take generations to fix.

 

[TurboPower]

Re: Re: Most votes....

See what that graph implies, and this is where your reading of the electoral system falls apart, is that equal representation should be given to an area in Montana, where the population will be, what, 20, 000 to an equal area in New York that would hold 200,000.

At the end of the day the truth of the matter is this. More voting Americans thought that Al Gore would be a better leader than Bush.

Bush is president because of an arcane and outdated political model whose true purpose was to take power away from the common man.

You know, its actually laughable that you'd post that. A few months before the election took place, most newspapers that had backed Gore had written editorials promoting the Electoral College as the right way to choose a president. Why is that, you ask? Simpley because the majority of pollsters predicted that Bush would get the "popular vote" while Gore would win in the Electoral College.

When the opposite happened, many of those newspapers threw away their pre-election written editorials and changed them for anti-electoral college language.

You seem to spew out the same kind of argument.

The reality is; whether this system needs to be reworked or not, it is the system in use at the present time. Bush is the president because more people voted for him through the Electoral College than for Gore.

Its funny - not one of the Gore supporters had a complaint when Clinton was chosen - by the exact same system! If you have a complaint about the system, fine. Work on it. Replace it with something better. But, it seems childish to to me that people would carry some kind of political grudge against Bush simply because they don't like the system that allowed him to win the election.

By the way, don't automatically label me as a Busy supporter. I didn't vote for him. I'm just arguing against your logic - not against your choice for president.

 

[Scruffy]

Re: Re: Re: Most votes....

You know, its actually laughable that you'd post that. A few months before the election took place, most newspapers that had backed Gore had written editorials promoting the Electoral College as the right way to choose a president. Why is that, you ask? Simpley because the majority of pollsters predicted that Bush would get the "popular vote" while Gore would win in the Electoral College.

The reality is; whether this system needs to be reworked or not, it is the system in use at the present time. Bush is the president because more people voted for him through the Electoral College than for Gore.

Its funny - not one of the Gore supporters had a complaint when Clinton was chosen - by the exact same system! If you have a complaint about the system, fine. Work on it. Replace it with something better. But, it seems childish to to me that people would carry some kind of political grudge against Bush simply because they don't like the system that allowed him to win the election.

What I suppose you don't understand is that, yes, obviously when the fluke off-the-wall election highlights the problem with the electoral system there will be more people who notice it's obvious flaws and deficiencies.

You don't know me, don't know anything of my views and yet you assume I flip-flopped because of some imagined support for Gore that you think I have. The truth is that I have been vocal in my opposition to the Electoral system since I learned about the 1884(or 1888?) election of Hayes over Tilden.

If you weren't such a self satisfied little piss ant you might take into account that other peoples views were based on actual opinions based on historical fact.

Your point about Clinton seems focal to the basic deficiency of your argument. A bad system, an unfair system can work sometimes. Even a majority of the time. But the Bush election, like the Hayes election, highlighted why the system has at it's root a fundamental flaw. The concept that regular people cannot be trusted to elect a president themselves.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Scruffy, Scruffy, Scruffy!!!

You respond;

"If you weren't such a self satisfied little piss ant you might take into account that other peoples views were based on actual opinions based on historical fact.

Your point about Clinton seems focal to the basic deficiency of your argument. A bad system, an unfair system can work sometimes."

"If you weren't such a self satisfied little piss ant" you would realize how badly you hurt your own position with; "A bad system, an unfair system can work sometimes.", in relation to President Clinton . You might as well sign your posts "Yellow Dog Democrate!!!

RhumbRunner

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

So where is the proof that W. Bush stole Florida? The liberal press has had two years to provide an answer. We're still waiting.

What Liberal Press, exactly, said Bush stole the Florida election and promised to prove it?

Exactly?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You've had one hour to provide an answer. We're still waiting.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You're had two hours to provide an answer. We're still waiting.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You've had, give or take, two hours, seventeen minutes and thirty-two seconds to provide an answer. We're still waiting -- except now we're going to wait down in the coffee shop. Shall we order for you?

 

[Azwed]

As long as you are going would you get me some Chai tea with extra honey and cinnamon.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Dude, it's a coffee shop. You'll get a Reuben and an iced tea with no sugar, and you'll like it.

 

[Azwed]

Umhh I don't drink coffee.

it sucks. Tea however I will drink gallons of.

 

[Unclebill]

Re: Re: Most votes....

Originally posted by Scruffy
. . . Bush is president because of an arcane and outdated political model whose true purpose was to take power away from the common man.

You'd do well to take RhumbRunner13's advice and educate yourself on the conceptual design, purpose and intent of the Electoral College. It's in the Federalist Papers.

When you make a statement such as this, you betray your ignorance and call to memory the old adage:

'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

The Founders had (and explained) very sound and valid reasons for the construct they chose for the Federal government including the manner of selecting Federal officers in each and every branch of that government. Those ideas and the rights and principles they were designed to protect remain sound and valid today.

Originally posted by Azwed
. . . Everything that needs to be changed has to be done with constitutional amendmants which require a 2/3's majority. . .

Just to refresh your memory, it requires a 2/3 vote of Congress to propose an amendment to the Constitution. To actually amend it requires a subsequent ratification by 3/4 of the states' legislatures or conventions.

Originally posted by Dixon Carter Lee
What Liberal Press, exactly, said Bush stole the Florida election and promised to prove it?

Exactly?

If you recall, DCL, about a year ago, the press published their comprehensive Florida vote recount which proved that Gore got the most votes and won the election. The problem is, they published these results with no hoopla or fanfare, very low profile because even with their best efforts, the numbers came out the same as the Florida state officials said. Gore won 4-3 in the Supreme Court Of Florida [SCOFLA] but not in the Florida popular vote.