So shoot me *shrug*

[shy slave]

I may be about to say things that are unpopular around here, but I have a need to say this out loud.

I have seen articles over the past few years which talk about internet friendships and there longevity.
I seem to recall the average length is four months for such a friendship.

Over the past few years I have been on numerous forums and yahoo groups, but Lit is probably the most active.
I think I have friends here, all of which have been my online friends for much more than four months.
Some people I exchange regular pm's with, some I have spoken to on the phone and some I have text messages with. It makes the world smaller and I like the diversity that these friends bring to my lives.
Others, I have never spoken to outside of the posts I read but I like what I read and how they convey themselves. Therefore, when I see their name mentally i smile and think 'friend,' even if I don't know them outside of here.

But thoughts run to, are they really a friend or are they just a fleeting name on a forum?

I have been in a Yahoo forum for a couple of years. It is not that active, but again I thought I had friends there.
However, due to the actions of one of the most active members I elected to leave.
Their actions caused me a great deal of emotional distress which I struggled to understand. I did email them and tell them but their response was so amazingly dense it made me realise this person was not someone I would want to know in real life.

I posted on the group about this persons actions and why I had chosen to leave, but did not say who that person was.

I had conversed with people on this group for at least two years and thought they were, if not my friends, at least marginally interested in my well being.
Not one single person has emailed me to ask if I am ok. If they could not access my email they could contact me through another site they know I visit.
Yet the silence has made me really think about who these people actually are.
I am not bitter, but I am disappointed in such a group reaction.

Every now and then people vanish from Lit, sometimes they return sometimes they do not.

But it begs the question in my mind as to whether any actually gives a damn about other people on the internet.
Or are we becoming immune to people coming and going on the net we do not hold enough interest to care if that person is ok or not?

I tend not to go on threads when people announce their return, it is not because I don't like that person, it is more a habit. If you do it for one, then you do it even when you don't really mean it or when you don't really know that person.

Does that mean I too am becoming someone who expects people to vanish and later return? In truth I don't always notice people have gone, after all, I like to think we have more in life than just a computer to sit at.

I can't help but wonder if the internet will change society on a global level.
Make us less caring and less interested in others and more concerned with our own POV.

It is common on Lit for someone to post a question and then never post a thank you or follow up. In a sense they vanish, they may lurk but how would anyone here know that?

Does anyone ever re-read their question and wonder if that person is ok, or is our first instinct to think 'idiot, ungrateful' time waster, troll etc etc?'

Is it a group mentality that we join a group and expect people to vanish, or is it an individual thing where we think 'I can't care about everyone, they will be back'

Maybe if people post once and then vanish it is hard to wonder about them, but if you have spent time getting to know them, is that different?

Is it the same as someone new coming into the local bar/pub, getting to know them and then they stop coming?
Would you remember they had been there or wonder what had happened? If you heard they were having a hard time would you respond differently to the same situation online?

Personally I am reviewing my own reality with regard to the net and how I react when people say 'I found this hard' or 'I have some personal stuff that hurts'
I never want to be seen as not giving a damn, but maybe it has happened and I have not realised it.

 

[FurryFury]

As you know I was upset and concerned about all this. I said so on the forum "out loud" so so speak and not in private messages or e-mails.

I still think the problem could be worked out with enough communication but I can't fix it for anyone that is up to the two of you.

I'm always open to PM's or e-mails from my friends. I do consider you to be one of them.

*HUG*

I'm sorry if my lack of a PM or e-mail lead you to think I didn't care. That's so far from the truth.

Of course lately I'm completely metally fucked up. Hell, I even forgot my wedding anniversary which is this month.

Fury

 

[shy slave]

FF I had no idea you were concerned about it all as I left the forum straight after my post.

For various reasons I do not think this could have been worked out, but that is for private reasons.

But that incident has given me much to think about in terms of online friendships and how stable, realistic they are.
In a sense are they more or less 'real' than those we make face-to-face?

 

[Yang4yin]

Like you, I've been active on several sites and thought I had friends there, but eventually discovered otherwise.

I have Internet friends that I've never met, and several of them I've "known" for more than a few years. I have relatively new Internet friends that I think may well become long-timers. And I've had Internet friends who I thought were getting close who simply vanished without any explanation.

Of those few Internet friends who became real life friends, there is only one who stuck around for more than a month or two, but after about 5 years, she seems to have disappeared, too.

Even with all of our communication technology, (some) people just don't seem to want to make an effort to keep a friendship going.

 

[shy slave]

Like you, I've been active on several sites and thought I had friends there, but eventually discovered otherwise.

I have Internet friends that I've never met, and several of them I've "known" for more than a few years. I have relatively new Internet friends that I think may well become long-timers. And I've had Internet friends who I thought were getting close who simply vanished without any explanation.

Of those few Internet friends who became real life friends, there is only one who stuck around for more than a month or two, but after about 5 years, she seems to have disappeared, too.

Even with all of our communication technology, (some) people just don't seem to want to make an effort to keep a friendship going.

I know it hapens in real life as well, with the pressures of living.
But it is sad when it happens.
I have some friends I knew from 30 years ago, I am curious to find out if some of the net friends I have will make it that long.

 

[im_a_voyeur]

Hi shy,

I actually haven't checked the other group in a while so I didn't even know that you were leaving the group until you mentioned it here.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to leave. I haven't seen every exchange between you and the other person so I can't claim to know all of the history that has gone on between the two of you. I guess I agree with Fury on the thought that I truly doubt that the other person meant any malice on her part.

Marquis has mentioned that there have been times where I have been completely oblivious to the sensitivities of other people at times. The latest incident that you mentioned in the group sounds like something I would have done and I guess that confirms that I am pretty oblivious.

I can understand why the two of you are both upset but I really hope that you guys are able to work things out. I think the both of you are very lovely people.

 

[FurryFury]

FF I had no idea you were concerned about it all as I left the forum straight after my post.

For various reasons I do not think this could have been worked out, but that is for private reasons.

But that incident has given me much to think about in terms of online friendships and how stable, realistic they are.
In a sense are they more or less 'real' than those we make face-to-face?

I'm so sorry then. I thought you'd still be getting the posts because I left Yahoo many months ago and I still am.

*HUGS*

I think that online relationships can be very good but are they the same?
No, they are not.

In some ways they can be far more immediate seeming and very supportive.

In other ways, they can be more distant than RL. They are mostly done at the convenience of the people involved. One difference for me is that I can find a few minutes to post here and there when I couldn't find an hour or more to actually meet up in a lot of cases.

Fury

 

[Shankara20]

In a sense are they more or less 'real' than those we make face-to-face?

I for one value my on-line "friends", people I have interacted with and who I sometimes make an effort to respond to "just cause". That said, I seldom reach out by PM's. Sometimes I am just over-peopled and need time away from direct connections in favor of the thread sorta stuff that I can just step away from if I need to take a break.

I feel safer here with people as I am less likely to try to save them or give myself away to them as I tend to do with face-to-face relationships. It has stunned me when a few ongoing on-line discussions have become difficult with people who acted as if there were deep emotional connections after only a week of back and forth emails.

I am cautious about relationships, R/L and on-line, as a self-protective move so I seldom reach out to anyone anywhere.

I have shared more about myself here then with people I spend time with very week.

So in answer to your question "In a sense are they more or less 'real' than those we make face-to-face?" all I can say is "I don't know"

I am, however, sorry for the pain you are in and hope you can find some comfort.

Signed - Shank, who considers you a freind.

 

[shy slave]

Hi shy,

I actually haven't checked the other group in a while so I didn't even know that you were leaving the group until you mentioned it here.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to leave. I haven't seen every exchange between you and the other person so I can't claim to know all of the history that has gone on between the two of you. I guess I agree with Fury on the thought that I truly doubt that the other person meant any malice on her part.

Marquis has mentioned that there have been times where I have been completely oblivious to the sensitivities of other people at times. The latest incident that you mentioned in the group sounds like something I would have done and I guess that confirms that I am pretty oblivious.

I can understand why the two of you are both upset but I really hope that you guys are able to work things out. I think the both of you are very lovely people.

Hi
It is not about working it out, I have no wish to do that and the incident did not happen in the group so no harm done.

What all of it did do was make me question and consider online friendships.
I used the incident of being sent a Mothers day card when I am a grieving parent as a part of the post, it was not a post that was meant to shriek 'poor me'

I hope people read more than just that within the OP.

Don't stress over it, ok?

 

[im_a_voyeur]

Hi
It is not about working it out, I have no wish to do that and the incident did not happen in the group so no harm done.

What all of it did do was make me question and consider online friendships.
I used the incident of being sent a Mothers day card when I am a grieving parent as a part of the post, it was not a post that was meant to shriek 'poor me'

I hope people read more than just that within the OP.

Don't stress over it, ok?

Still makes me a bit sad though.

 

[shy slave]

I for one value my on-line "friends", people I have interacted with and who I sometimes make an effort to respond to "just cause". That said, I seldom reach out by PM's. Sometimes I am just over-peopled and need time away from direct connections in favor of the thread sorta stuff that I can just step away from if I need to take a break.

I feel safer here with people as I am less likely to try to save them or give myself away to them as I tend to do with face-to-face relationships. It has stunned me when a few ongoing on-line discussions have become difficult with people who acted as if there were deep emotional connections after only a week of back and forth emails.

I am cautious about relationships, R/L and on-line, as a self-protective move so I seldom reach out to anyone anywhere.

I have shared more about myself here then with people I spend time with very week.

So in answer to your question "In a sense are they more or less 'real' than those we make face-to-face?" all I can say is "I don't know"

I am, however, sorry for the pain you are in and hope you can find some comfort.

Signed - Shank, who considers you a freind.

Shank
This makes alot of sense to me.

Sometimes it is easier when we are 'peopled-out' to stick to the illusions and protection online gives.

I also understand your being 'self-protective' even though you have many photos of yourself, you share very little of who you really are.

I share much about sex, but less about who I really am.
It is 'self-protection.'

In real life people can see who we are in a physical sense, yet there are other barriers.

I have started to think that like some r/l friendships, online ones have a purpose for a brief period of time. Some out last that initial contact and some don't.

Last year there was talk about people lurking on Lit who were doing sociology studies, I wonder if it were true; what their findings about online friendships were.

I can't help but wonder if the next generation will all have transient friendships and if that will be better or worse than friends forever, after all it gives the option for re-invention, if no-one remembers who you are.

 

[LunarKitten]

Shy, I am so sorry you are affected this way. It's been weeks and weeks since I've checked my email where those posts are routed to, I had no idea what had happened. *huggles* I do hope you stick around here, as I enjoy your posts. They make me smile and make me think.

I don't check my email near as frequently these days. After a very tiring pregnancy,and now working 45-50 hours per week, driving about 90 miles one way to get to and from work, then dealing with family stuff...heck, I rarely post on here and my local BDSM groups have recently mentioned my absense

*huggles and snuggles and cuddles*

 

[intothewoods]

Interesting thread, shy. I've been very active on a couple of other online forums, and have met people through the forums that I've known for years now. Most of them I would classify as aquaintances. Yes, we've shared some intimate details about each other, but at the end of the day, we don't really know each other.

However, there are a few people that I now consider friends. With the exception of one, I have met them all in real life. At the end of the day, the question is, would you be friends with the person in real life. If you would, than the medium doesn't matter.

 

[A Desert Rose]

How much effort does one want to invest in being a friend? It doesn't matter if it's in real life or on the net. Being a friend is a labor of love. It takes an effort of concern and interest to be a friend. Granted, we all have real lifes that take up a lot of our time. Children, lovers, jobs, families. But an occassional touch base with someone (real life or net) is usually all it takes to keep a friendship alive.

If someone doesn't make the effort to keep in touch and show an interest in another, friendships, if they've even developed, will vanish. It's like my mother used to tell me, "you have to be a friend to have one."

True friends are hard to find. It's like fishing... you toss back the ones who aren't going to be the kind of friend you're looking for and you fry up and eat the keepers... oh wait. That's not where I was going exactly.

Nevermind.

 

[Cheshire D]

I have no idea what went on, so I'll just answer the question.

Are online friendships the same as offline friendships? (I use on/offline instead of real life and online because quite frankly everything is "real life" including the time I use to talk online.) I think so, as long as you put in the effort to cultivate those friendships. I have people I consider friends, close friends I've known (but never met offline) since 7th grade, and being an almost-junior in college, that's gotta be something. I talk to them daily through IM*, and while there was a rocky period of a couple years where I didn't talk due to a major fight (as I think there are even in offline friendships) I've grown back to them. (Again, as I think happens offline.) At the same time, there are times I really don't know some of them, like the time that a person I thought had been a guy, came out as a chick. *shrug* Of course, they didn't change much aside from the fact that I now put a female at the chair of the computer instead of a male. Sure, it was a whopper of a secret/lie, but we all have some skeletons and we're still wonderful friends.

There are people that I know through various forums I've been on that I consider friends, and worry about them if they disappear even if I don't post that I'm worrying. That's just who I am, I think.

I'd love to meet the people who I only know online, off. Some things prevent it, so I (and they) content ourselves with speaking online.

*I met most of my closest friends on a forum, but we IM real-time more than we talk through the forums. I think the real-time bit helps in keeping in close touch...those I strictly speak to on forums I'm not as close to, though I am close.

 

[neonflux]

ShySlave, I am sorry you went through this. I do think that there's a more ephemeral quality to online friendships, particularly if you don't include any sort of physical meeting or at least phone calls. People so tightly control what they share of themselves online and there's only so far that one can get to know someone else without more direct contact.

I don't know if it's the same for people who are younger than I and have grown up with the Internet...That said, I value the friendships I have made, even when "RL" takes me away from them for a while.

I only started having friendships online about a year and a half ago. Early on, I had my heart completely broken and I know that part of it was due to the fact that there was such great distance (plus, I've never, ever found cybersex satisfying).

Re: your question about people becoming generally more disposable - I suspect that's been a problem in the United States, at least, for a long time - everything is disposable - chalk it up to a combination of consumerism, the American personality which always envisions a "new frontier" when things get too rough, and the demands of business/professional careers which often take us away from family (I wish my sis still lived here...)

I have European friends who are appalled at how poorly they see Americans conducting our friendships...

You are in my thoughts - losing a community is never, ever easy.

Neon

 

[Kierae]

Re: your question about people becoming generally more disposable - I suspect that's been a problem in the United States, at least, for a long time - everything is disposable - chalk it up to a combination of consumerism, the American personality which always envisions a "new frontier" when things get too rough, and the demands of business/professional careers which often take us away from family

This is so true. I believe it really depends on the people involved on whether there is a difference or not. I have been part of a couple online communities (mostly gaming) and have ended up with a great set of friends from it. Ones that I talk to daily (via messenger), talk to on the phone occasionally (cheaper to do the real time chats..hehe), and have taken vacations together. Several of us get together once a year for a weekend of fun (last year was river rafting). I have felt fortunate to have several of these folks in my life - they have been supportive when I needed a shoulder (aka the terror years of my daughter) and especially entertaining when I have been stuck in bed recouping from another surgery. After 7 years, a couple of them know me pretty damn well - more than my own father does. I do have to say I am one of those folks whose real life friends are small in numbers - I have a couple who live within an hour of me. Otherwise the rest are truly more acquaintances.

Basically in real life or online, you will find sincere folks who do give a damn and can maintain a friendship and then you have tons of superficial folks who will float thru people like they are the lastest trend.

~kierae

 

[shy slave]

Thank you for your thoughts Lunar, life sounds stressful for you at the moment.

Interesting thread, shy. I've been very active on a couple of other online forums, and have met people through the forums that I've known for years now. Most of them I would classify as aquaintances. Yes, we've shared some intimate details about each other, but at the end of the day, we don't really know each other.

However, there are a few people that I now consider friends. With the exception of one, I have met them all in real life. At the end of the day, the question is, would you be friends with the person in real life. If you would, than the medium doesn't matter.

Hi ITW, I sometimes wonder if because of the potential transient nature of online friendships it is not possible to weigh them against face-to-face friendships (similar to comparing apples and oranges).

People hide elements of themselves both online and face-to-face, but they are often different aspects of themselves.
Therefore if someone you know online disappears is it possible to have the same level of concern for them as oppose to if you know them in a face-to-face setting.
The more I think of it, the more unclear I become.

Some people here are very close friends and I notice if they don't post, but others are simply people whose posts I like and if they stop I admit I don't always have the same thoughts as I would if I had conversed more with them.

 

[shy slave]

How much effort does one want to invest in being a friend? It doesn't matter if it's in real life or on the net. Being a friend is a labor of love. It takes an effort of concern and interest to be a friend. Granted, we all have real lifes that take up a lot of our time. Children, lovers, jobs, families. But an occassional touch base with someone (real life or net) is usually all it takes to keep a friendship alive.

If someone doesn't make the effort to keep in touch and show an interest in another, friendships, if they've even developed, will vanish. It's like my mother used to tell me, "you have to be a friend to have one."

True friends are hard to find. It's like fishing... you toss back the ones who aren't going to be the kind of friend you're looking for and you fry up and eat the keepers... oh wait. That's not where I was going exactly.

Nevermind.

I consider you a close friend, yet I am not the greatest at keeping in touch. Bloody awful if truth be known.

However, we have developed that friendship over a long period of time and continued with it.

True friends a re very hard to find and they take time to establish.

I guess I am wondering if that time will not be taken as life becomes more and more computer based and people have a more disposable approach to friendships, instead of developing them and growing with them.

So, do you want me fried or just lightly steamed

 

[shy slave]

I have no idea what went on, so I'll just answer the question.

Are online friendships the same as offline friendships? (I use on/offline instead of real life and online because quite frankly everything is "real life" including the time I use to talk online.) I think so, as long as you put in the effort to cultivate those friendships. I have people I consider friends, close friends I've known (but never met offline) since 7th grade, and being an almost-junior in college, that's gotta be something. I talk to them daily through IM*, and while there was a rocky period of a couple years where I didn't talk due to a major fight (as I think there are even in offline friendships) I've grown back to them. (Again, as I think happens offline.) At the same time, there are times I really don't know some of them, like the time that a person I thought had been a guy, came out as a chick. *shrug* Of course, they didn't change much aside from the fact that I now put a female at the chair of the computer instead of a male. Sure, it was a whopper of a secret/lie, but we all have some skeletons and we're still wonderful friends.

There are people that I know through various forums I've been on that I consider friends, and worry about them if they disappear even if I don't post that I'm worrying. That's just who I am, I think.

I'd love to meet the people who I only know online, off. Some things prevent it, so I (and they) content ourselves with speaking online.

*I met most of my closest friends on a forum, but we IM real-time more than we talk through the forums. I think the real-time bit helps in keeping in close touch...those I strictly speak to on forums I'm not as close to, though I am close.

Cheshire, thank you for this. Using 'on and offline' makes alot of sense.

There are many people I know online whom I would like to meet, and finding out they were not the gender I thought they were would not surprise me. People do have secrets.

I once posted that I was a 70 year old man and have pm's asking if that were true

I it is nice to read that you have not succumbed to the transient nature of the net, as I think I was, and am, in danger of doing.

 

[shy slave]

Neon, I do think the UK is becoming similar to the US with disposable frindships. Although I don't think it is quite the same in other parts of Europe. Maybe that is because I see the whole social/family structure of the UK as dysfunctional and yet in Europe it still seems like a working model.

I had not really put the pressures of living into the mix as to why we can find net friendships easier to move on from. But it makes sense. Performing and being available for social and work issues, means the net is more a switch off place where people can sit back and not take on the concerns of others to a great extent. Compared to if they were working face-to-face with them each day.

Thanks for this train of thought.

Kierae Thank you for showing how things can work.

The last line made alot of sense, some people are superficial whether it is on or off line. It is not always possible to see they are, but sometimes it shows through.
Then again, maybe it is life pressures that make them appear that way?

 

[ShyGuy68]

Just how do you want to be shot??

 

[A Desert Rose]

I consider you a close friend, yet I am not the greatest at keeping in touch. Bloody awful if truth be known.

However, we have developed that friendship over a long period of time and continued with it.

True friends a re very hard to find and they take time to establish.

I guess I am wondering if that time will not be taken as life becomes more and more computer based and people have a more disposable approach to friendships, instead of developing them and growing with them.

So, do you want me fried or just lightly steamed

I'm glad you thought that was funny. ;-) I think more times than not, people don't find any humor in things. Or don't acknowledge it.

We've both agreed that letter writing isn't one of our strengths. I don't write as often as I should and I rarely even turn on my yahoo to chat with people. But knowing that we still care about each other, is all that matters. Knowing that I can turn to you or some of my other online friends, is the most important thing.

Those who've seen "Peggy Sue Got Married" might remember the scene where Peggy tells her high school girlfriends that she's broken up with Charlie. Her girfriends were crushed. To paraphrase the whole dialoge, Peggy's friend says "Peggy, you can't break up with Charlie. We were all supposed to have kids and live on the same block and have bar-b-ques together. You'll just mess everything up."

Someone did a study a few years ago that I read in Scientific American magazine and I think it was called The Bowling League Study. What it said was that Americans are joining fewer and fewer groups, organizations and leagues because of the internet. I can attest to this being in Rotary. It's harder and harder to find members who will dedicate themselves to it. It said that we are isolating ourselves more and more and sitting more at our computers and tvs. We spend less time knowing our neighbors (the bar-b-que reference) and socializing outside our homes.

I think there's some truth in all that.

So to answer your question: I prefer my friends fried... they are less healthy for me but taste soooo damned good.

 

[shy slave]

Just how do you want to be shot??

Having read ADR's post I think I want to be fried instead lol

ADR, I am curious now about what the results of a similar study would find in the UK.

I am sure teenagers are less involved with clubs and community aspects than they ever were before.

That must translate as a habit into adult hood.

I used to be very involved in am dram, writing, acting, producing, hair pulling etc etc lol.
Now I am not a member of any group or club. Yet, I admit I like it that way at the moment.

 

[naxalite0906]

With the exception of one time (and that is something I had no control over but deeply regretted - she will no doubt see this so once again I am sorry), I always put a lot into friendships with people I have met online.

I value these people alot, and always make an effort to say hello and keep in contact. Sure, it may not be as personal as face to face, but these people are always willing to chat, listen and help if possible. Without some of them, I would not have gotten through some very hard times, and even when I am feeling a little down, there is always someone there who will let me vent at them. I consider a lot of people close friends on here and I would like to think that people think of me in that way too, but sometimes I have my doubts. This is mainly due to the fact that there are a lot of people that I used to be very close with, and now they never speak to me and seem to ignore my pms/posts. I make the effort to try and keep in contact, and see if they are ok, but I do not get responses. I know that some keep posting on threads etc, and this really bugs me. I constantly feel as though I have done something wrong and slowly have doubts about myself because of this. I don't want this to seem like it is aimed at anyone, because it isnt, I am just giving an example. I just get fed up because it isnt exactly hard to write a small pm either saying "I am ok, but want to move away from things" or even "fuck off, I hate you." At least then people know where they stand and are not left wondering about things. There are some people I have not heard from for some time, for whatever reason, but I still care about them enough to wonder if they are ok. Sometimes it hurts when this happens, so I always try to stay in touch but it just gets a little frustrating and you begin to have doubt in some friendships when it seems like you are initiating contact all the time.

Again, let me just say (before anyone reads this and thinks it is a personal dig) that this is not aimed at anyone in particular. In fact, other than a few from a while ago who vanished (and I am sure they have very good reasons, but still miss them greatly and wish they had just said why they stopped talking to me) and some people from other forums, I can honestly say that my comments are not aimed at anyone else. I do not want to upset anyone, I just wanted to give my feelings on this whole subject. Like I said, there are many wonderful people in lit that say hello to me on a regular basis, and even if it is not face to face, I really do value a lot of people on here. Lets just hope I affect people in the same way too