slave training seminar

[Shadowsdream]

The only way I've ever broken anyone down is though a long process of seduction, patience, demonstrated trustworthiness, and focus on the goal that is NOT visible to the person in question but still pulls them in towards it.

If I were going to a seminar on slave training I'd be interested in the micromanage/versus leeway issue. I think SM is leaning more and more towards fostering dependency in slaves. Some slaves I know from earlier leather decades or belonging to those Masters/Mistresses from earlier decades, or even just out of a certain school of thought in the Leather community...they are markedly independent, even maverick. Are we turning our back on usefulness?

Good subject. I am finding that in this neck of the woods and My experiences in Europe, it is more the slaves that are looking for the micro managing than it is the Dominants that wish to micro manage. Personally I am the kind of Domme that likes to micro manage a few of My toys and off set it with a few toys that need very little management. I am a greedy little Mistress it would seem!

Do You see a leaning towards many craving the re awakening of a bigger and more formal leather type of BDSM? I am noticing the talk here generating in that direction lately.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I believe that a slave who is independant is a strong reflection of the Domination of the Mistress or Master. The important thing is that the slave knows when, where, how and why to show that independance.

Again about honor and devotion.

Thank you for the new seminar possibility!

I'm sorry - I only thought I was going to sleep...

I understand the concept, but doesn't that more independent slave concept "fly in the face" of the Master/slave dynamic? I don't have really good R/L experience, but I have never really been comfortable with the Omnipotent Master/powerless slave relationship. IF they are truly two halves to one whole - or symbiotic in nature, it stands to reason (for me at least) that strong PYLs and strong pyls are constantly in search of each other. The strong dominant seeking the strong submissive.

Interesting seminar information might be: What argument might you use to convince the current PYLs that a return to the more independent M/s dynamic is good for the culture?

Esclava

 

[Netzach]

I do see a resurgence in interest in "how the Old Guard was" only there's a huge deal of romanticization and confusion that gets in the way of history and fact.

I do feel very encouraged when I meet formal families with highly articulate and independent slaves, I think there are a lot of online borne myths about submissive deportment and such.

I was at a seminar recently and the audience kept asking the Master about punishment and negligence and failure and they totally failed to grasp the idea that in certain cases, punishment is hardly ever required because failing to please is SO outside the desire of the slave that it's not relevant, the slave works that hard to obey. The "what ifs" they cooked up to challenge this man's extremely logical way of outlining expectations all seemed to assume that any slave is going to act out wilfully, seek attention, screw up tasks if given free will in carrying out the detail as they see fit.

That was the crux of it, he said "I tell them what needs doing, how it's done is up to them" and a lot of people really didn't get that or see it as something that could be maintained without punishment.

 

[snowy ciara]

Re Esclava's Questions...

Is there a better "return on Your investment" so to speak with a strong willed sub? It sort of seems that it might, since submitting to someone seems like it takes more effort on the subs part. I'm sure the abject subs for whom this all comes naturally are wonderful people to have, but if it's easy for them to submit then how is it a sacrifice? Is a sacrifice neccessary? I'm not sure I'd want to have a PYL for whom it is an epic struggle to deal with, but I don't know. I distrust things that come too easily to me. I feel that I should have to work for my happiness.

I'm just confused, I guess.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I do see a resurgence in interest in "how the Old Guard was" only there's a huge deal of romanticization and confusion that gets in the way of history and fact.

I do feel very encouraged when I meet formal families with highly articulate and independent slaves, I think there are a lot of online borne myths about submissive deportment and such.

I was at a seminar recently and the audience kept asking the Master about punishment and negligence and failure and they totally failed to grasp the idea that in certain cases, punishment is hardly ever required because failing to please is SO outside the desire of the slave that it's not relevant, the slave works that hard to obey. The "what ifs" they cooked up to challenge this man's extremely logical way of outlining expectations all seemed to assume that any slave is going to act out wilfully, seek attention, screw up tasks if given free will in carrying out the detail as they see fit.

That was the crux of it, he said "I tell them what needs doing, how it's done is up to them" and a lot of people really didn't get that or see it as something that could be maintained without punishment.

I am in total agreement about the lack of need to be constantly correcting or punishing. My slaves are expected to serve Me well and with pride in their accomplishments as a reflection of My Domination over them.

Thank god they are never 100% perfect because I do have a need to punish and correct on occassion....

Perhaps it is in the formal environments that We see more of the desire in subs to strive to please unconditionally?

 

[Netzach]

I'm sorry - I only thought I was going to sleep...

I understand the concept, but doesn't that more independent slave concept "fly in the face" of the Master/slave dynamic? I don't have really good R/L experience, but I have never really been comfortable with the Omnipotent Master/powerless slave relationship. IF they are truly two halves to one whole - or symbiotic in nature, it stands to reason (for me at least) that strong PYLs and strong pyls are constantly in search of each other. The strong dominant seeking the strong submissive.

Interesting seminar information might be: What argument might you use to convince the current PYLs that a return to the more independent M/s dynamic is good for the culture?

Esclava

I don't see it as antithetical because I define a slave as someone who is property, period. We got way too carried away with assigning personality traits to a position -- "slave."

They can be submissive and mild and tractable or they can be willful and commanding and militant - the defining factor is that everything they do they do for an Owner's glory and benefit and as the Owner wishes. An extremely dominant person can subsume their ego when they find someone strong or worthy or inspiring to do this for and will often display greater loyalty than an inherently obedient and easily led person.

The argument I might use to convince PYLs that independent and motivated slaves are good for the community is to take a good look around them at the number of leadership positions that can be held, are held, and are often *best* held by slave and submissive people in our community, at the incredible role models among our slaves and submissives, and to listen to their experiences and the depths of understanding in them. The resilient and intelligent and tough slave can be useful to me in ways I may never even notice. He/she has enough patience and calm to weather not being petted on the head in thanks, and he/she isn't unable to be productive without a list of steps for the smallest activity.

When a slave expects intense micromanagement from me, I'm sorry, but I've always seen it as passive aggression. When a slave learns me and makes what I like happen without me asking, that's nirvana. I don't expect mind reading, I do talk, I do clarify, but to be studied closely? That's when I know I'm truly worshipped

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re Esclava's Questions...

Is there a better "return on Your investment" so to speak with a strong willed sub? It sort of seems that it might, since submitting to someone seems like it takes more effort on the subs part. I'm sure the abject subs for whom this all comes naturally are wonderful people to have, but if it's easy for them to submit then how is it a sacrifice? Is a sacrifice neccessary? I'm not sure I'd want to have a PYL for whom it is an epic struggle to deal with, but I don't know. I distrust things that come too easily to me. I feel that I should have to work for my happiness.

I'm just confused, I guess.

To submit is to struggle. Some submissives do it gracefully and some like a bull in a china shop.

It takes strength and courage to submit and hopefully is never confused with passive.

Sacrifice is also one of those intangibles. It can be a sacrifice for a
a submissive to never be able to submit or a sacrifice to obey without question.

I would never continue for a long duration with a submissive that I had to fight. But I do enjoy a sub or slave with a brain and an inquiring mind...inquisitive..yet always knowing when enough is enough and the difference between topping and learning.

 

[Desdemona]

Since you are interested in the psychology of training for this presentation, perhaps it would be helpful to the audience if you discuss how to recognise the line that a sub or slave truly cannot cross. That line obviously varies from person to person. I'm not talking about simple resistance. I'm talking about a line that if the sub/slave were pushed to cross, could cause some damage. I suspect it can be difficult for some new dominants (and submissives) to figure that out at times.

I don't know if this made sense or not.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Since you are interested in the psychology of training for this presentation, perhaps it would be helpful to the audience if you discuss how to recognise the line that a sub or slave truly cannot cross. That line obviously varies from person to person. I'm not talking about simple resistance. I'm talking about a line that if the sub/slave were pushed to cross, could cause some damage. I suspect it can be difficult for some new dominants (and submissives) to figure that out at times.

I don't know if this made sense or not.

Hello Des

Yes it made perfect sense and is a subject that I speak on often. There is no doubt that this line is on a slide rule but there are signs to read that can indicate the line is about to be crossed into no mans land.

It is nice to see you again and thank you for bringing up this question.

 

[Desdemona]

Thank you Ma'am. It's good to be seen again.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I don't see it as antithetical because I define a slave as someone who is property, period. We got way too carried away with assigning personality traits to a position -- "slave."

They can be submissive and mild and tractable or they can be willful and commanding and militant - the defining factor is that everything they do they do for an Owner's glory and benefit and as the Owner wishes. An extremely dominant person can subsume their ego when they find someone strong or worthy or inspiring to do this for and will often display greater loyalty than an inherently obedient and easily led person.

The argument I might use to convince PYLs that independent and motivated slaves are good for the community is to take a good look around them at the number of leadership positions that can be held, are held, and are often *best* held by slave and submissive people in our community, at the incredible role models among our slaves and submissives, and to listen to their experiences and the depths of understanding in them. The resilient and intelligent and tough slave can be useful to me in ways I may never even notice. He/she has enough patience and calm to weather not being petted on the head in thanks, and he/she isn't unable to be productive without a list of steps for the smallest activity.

When a slave expects intense micromanagement from me, I'm sorry, but I've always seen it as passive aggression. When a slave learns me and makes what I like happen without me asking, that's nirvana. I don't expect mind reading, I do talk, I do clarify, but to be studied closely? That's when I know I'm truly worshipped

I really liked every word I read in this post... I come from the world of BDSM that came before online and all these sites and rules and demands slave are "supposed" to make. I see it as...if Master wants you to be a semi naked whore at his feet while he entertains company...you are. if he wants you to balance the checkbook, you do. if he wants to micromanage you down to your panties this week, thats fine too. I think the only thing a sub/slave should ever really want is to please the person who owns/controls them. it requires the ability to roll with the punches so to speak, and thats not always an easy place to keep your head. I think too many people see the end result without the thought of how the relationship got there, its romantic, or more extreme then their nilla lives and they want it, but dont want to go where they have to, to get it. I am a very strong willed, stubborn, bratty ,bitchy, bad tempered woman...those are nothing more then personality traits that really have nothing to do with the peace i feel while kissing ten beautifully perfect toes attached to the person who i live to please. Because i have a strong will doesnt mean i cant be submissive...The combination of having a strong will and a strong desire to please my Dominant is what gets me there.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

<snip>I see it as...if Master wants you to be <snip>...you are. if he wants you to <snip>... you do. if he wants to ... thats fine too. <snip> I think too many people see the end result without the thought of how the relationship got there, its romantic, or more extreme then their nilla lives and they want it, but dont want to go where they have to, to get it. I am a very strong willed, stubborn, bratty ,bitchy, bad tempered woman...those are nothing more then personality traits that really have nothing to do with the peace i feel while kissing ten beautifully perfect toes attached to the person who i live to please. Because i have a strong will doesnt mean i cant be submissive...The combination of having a strong will and a strong desire to please my Dominant is what gets me there.

I like your thinking. I couldn't tolerate a submissive/slave who did not have a strong will, because she wouldn't be strong enough to meet my wants, needs and demands.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I really liked every word I read in this post... I come from the world of BDSM that came before online and all these sites and rules and demands slave are "supposed" to make. I see it as...if Master wants you to be a semi naked whore at his feet while he entertains company...you are. if he wants you to balance the checkbook, you do. if he wants to micromanage you down to your panties this week, thats fine too. I think the only thing a sub/slave should ever really want is to please the person who owns/controls them. it requires the ability to roll with the punches so to speak, and thats not always an easy place to keep your head. I think too many people see the end result without the thought of how the relationship got there, its romantic, or more extreme then their nilla lives and they want it, but dont want to go where they have to, to get it. I am a very strong willed, stubborn, bratty ,bitchy, bad tempered woman...those are nothing more then personality traits that really have nothing to do with the peace i feel while kissing ten beautifully perfect toes attached to the person who i live to please. Because i have a strong will doesnt mean i cant be submissive...The combination of having a strong will and a strong desire to please my Dominant is what gets me there.

~~smile~~ a beautiful and honest post that bares reading many times....thank you for it!

 

[Kajira Callista]

I like your thinking. I couldn't tolerate a submissive/slave who did not have a strong will, because she wouldn't be strong enough to meet my wants, needs and demands.

 

[Kajira Callista]

~~smile~~ a beautiful and honest post that bares reading many times....thank you for it!

 

[bridgeburner]

...to be studied closely? That's when I know I'm truly worshipped

Excellent and very interesting thread but this single line has resonated most strongly for me.


-B

 

[Esclava]

<snip>(I am) a very strong willed, (all of the above too) woman...those are nothing more then personality traits that really have nothing to do with the peace i feel while kissing ten beautifully perfect toes attached to the person who i live to please. Because i have a strong will doesnt mean i cant be submissive...The combination of having a strong will and a strong desire to please my Dominant is what gets me there.

On this we agree completely!

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

Begging your pardon, ma'am, but...

<snip>I was at a seminar recently and the audience kept asking the Master about punishment and negligence and failure and they totally failed to grasp the idea that in certain cases, punishment is hardly ever required because failing to please is SO outside the desire of the slave that it's not relevant, the slave works that hard to obey. The "what ifs" they cooked up to challenge this man's extremely logical way of outlining expectations all seemed to assume that any slave is going to act out wilfully, seek attention, screw up tasks if given free will in carrying out the detail as they see fit.

That was the crux of it, he said "I tell them what needs doing, how it's done is up to them" and a lot of people really didn't get that or see it as something that could be maintained without punishment.

...are you sure they were true "what ifs"? Could some of the seminar participants been speaking from real experience and seeking help as to how to handle a recalcitrant submissive?

In my limited exposure to the community where I live, I have seen what you describe - "Dominants" who seem to cower under their much stronger submissive who says and does exactly as she chooses. How do I know I'm not looking at the pair backward? Dom/mes don't, usually, wear collars attached to chains.

I don't know what would allow a Dominant to subject him/herself to such treatment in public, but - personally - I would expect to be publicly flogged for such disrespectful behavior.

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

I almost missed this...

I believe that a slave who is independant is a strong reflection of the Domination of the Mistress or Master. The important thing is that the slave knows when, where, how and why to show that independance.

Again about honor and devotion.

Thank you for the new seminar possibility!

You are quite welcome, ma'am. Thank YOU for allowing me to participate. It is good to think on meaty topics - and not always cotton candy...

Esclava

 

[Netzach]

Re: Begging your pardon, ma'am, but...

...are you sure they were true "what ifs"? Could some of the seminar participants been speaking from real experience and seeking help as to how to handle a recalcitrant submissive?

In my limited exposure to the community where I live, I have seen what you describe - "Dominants" who seem to cower under their much stronger submissive who says and does exactly as she chooses. How do I know I'm not looking at the pair backward? Dom/mes don't, usually, wear collars attached to chains.

I don't know what would allow a Dominant to subject him/herself to such treatment in public, but - personally - I would expect to be publicly flogged for such disrespectful behavior.

Esclava

I suppose some of the questions could be meant to get practical hands on tips, but why not come out and say "hey, once she did this, what might help with that?" unless you're kind of a pussy? Why couch it in theoreticals? This is a very high profile person in SM with a long track record and pretty sound ideas in front of you, no need to be that shy.

I'm not talking about situations in which pseudo-Dominants are cowering, I am talking about relationships between strong and stronger where the top dog has needs and says "I charge you wih meeting A B C need, now go and do, here are some tools for you" and it happens. More often than not. Why is there so little faith in bottoms in our community? Why do we assume that the bottom will naturally veer towards DISobedience, like a child and not naturally veer into his/her obedience like a soldier or cop (ideally) ?

as for public behavior I'm totally missing your point. Why would a Dominant subject himself to potentially insensitive questioning in public? In this case because he wanted to educate and share about his household. His slave, far from overrunning her dictates, spent the entire time with her eyes on him and her hands in shackles, with only the faintest hint of a gracious smile when she was mentioned as an example.

 

[bridgeburner]

Why is there so little faith in bottoms in our community? Why do we assume that the bottom will naturally veer towards DISobedience, like a child and not naturally veer into his/her obedience like a soldier or cop (ideally) ?

I can't speak to changing trends or how things should or ought to be since I'm just a theoretician, but from the little I've witnessed in real life and from what I've seen online there is a large contingent of practitioners who really like the whole "misbehaving, sprite of a little subbie" thing.

Now, that's fine for them that likes it, but I see quite often these people throwing their weight and opinions around as if theirs is the only, the first or somehow most legitimate view and that tends to irritate me. It's not a form of BDSM that I would want to participate in were I to make the crossing from mental to physical practice. That seems more like a hitter/hittee dynamic to me which isn't the focus of my interest.

It certainly takes some kind of power to be able to phsycially force someone to do something that they don't want to do, but to make someone actually WANT to please you, not out of fear of punishment or even a sense of "this is my job/duty/responsibility", to inspire the kind of devotion that has people laying not just their jackets over mud-puddles but their naked prostrate bodies over burning coals for your comfort and pleasure, that's Domination.


-B

P.S. And here's your free block of salt to go with that post.

 

[Esclava]

<snip>as for public behavior I'm totally missing your point. Why would a Dominant subject himself to potentially insensitive questioning in public? In this case because he wanted to educate and share about his household. His slave, far from overrunning her dictates, spent the entire time with her eyes on him and her hands in shackles, with only the faintest hint of a gracious smile when she was mentioned as an example.

I don't have an answer to that why question either. But as they were a much older PYL(mid 60s)/much younger pyl (mid 20s), perhaps he was an established member of the group and known not to chastise in public. She may have seen serious discipline when they got home. But that is my point - with some of the younger pyls, the demeanor of a submissive servant seems to be missing at times. And if the training of pyls is lacking, who is training the PYLs who are training the pyls?

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

It certainly takes some kind of power to be able to phsycially force someone to do something that they don't want to do, but to make someone actually WANT to please you, not out of fear of punishment or even a sense of "this is my job/duty/responsibility", to inspire the kind of devotion that has people laying not just their jackets over mud-puddles but their naked prostrate bodies over burning coals for your comfort and pleasure, that's Domination.

-B

P.S. And here's your free block of salt to go with that post.

I've licked that block of salt and the only thing I would beg to differ with you on, is this: "It certainly takes some kind of power to be able to phsycially force someone to do something that they don't want to do, ..."

I don't believe physical force is necessary in a PYL/pyl relationship based on mutual respect and fulfilling of reflective needs. IMO, it is more difficult to mentally harness the desire to WANT to please and do all those other things you listed. THAT is the heart of Domination - to hold a pyl in such a way that their greatest pleasure is to please their PYL.

P.S.: That doesn't mean that percussive kink (or some other type) is not included on the list of reflective needs...

I really wish someone had taught me this first...

Esclava

 

[Shadowsdream]

Thank you all for your participation in this thread. The seminar is over now and it was nice to see that I had a sold out class in just a few hours of pre registration...I had to have My conferance room changed to a bigger one than planned..69 chairs were set up and then I began to watch more chairs arrive..and arrive..and arrive.

So I winged 90 minutes with your help and was stunned when I got the wrap it up signal..with 5 minutes to go! I think at that point I was having so much fun I would have paid for more talk time! ~~grin~~

Chatting the questions up with all of you My friends made the actual presentation feel like a continuation of all of your ideas. It was a very interesting feeling to say the least.

So watch out...I will be beginning a new thread asking for input questions for BDSM and handicaps. That will be the next seminar I present after seeing so much interest in that segment of this weekends presentation.

Now I am burnt out and vegging out!

 

[Kajira Callista]

Now I am burnt out and vegging out!

You need a foot massage. KC can tell.