*sigh OK... Here we go again!

[BooMerengue]

I posted both of these for Champagnes "What I Hate" challenge. The response was worse than dismal. So tell me why.

However, I wrote these as form poetry deliberately so please don't comment if you don't like form poetry. Thats no help... I have written free verse and done ok with it, and when the subject calls for it I will do it again. I want to learn the forms so I'm better equipped to step outside of them.

I use this site as my guide. There may be better ones, and I do have some links, but I like this one.

Writing-World.com

OK. Here they are...

What I Hate... a Triolet

If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories
and fold your arms and then berate
if you would know the things I hate.
But time moves on; its getting late
The sunlight makes those shadows flee.
If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories.

What I Hate... a Sonnet

I hate it when you say you know me well
and then you ask me why I cry at night
you plot and scheme so that you can be right
and all the time I'm hiding in my shell
I keep my silence as you start to yell
and watch as children quickly run in fright
and look to me to aid them in their plight
and picture life in different shades of hell
I wear my guilt as if I were a saint
and say my beads where everyone can see
I smile and nod as if our love was swell
but all the time I scream at how you taint
the love I hold for you, and wish you'd see
I hate it when you say you know me well.


I don't know if this needs to be known, but rarely do I judge a work on content. It's not my place to tell a writer how to feel, or express those feelings. I do judge grammar, spelling, length, redundancy etc. There are some poems here I call BAM!! poems... poems that hit me hard in the gut. Those I love and I do comment on those. But I don't judge them because they punched me.

I'll shut up now...

1201? You stay out of this, ok? *smile

 

[foehn]

I posted both of these for Champagnes "What I Hate" challenge. The response was worse than dismal. So tell me why.

...

What I Hate... a Triolet

If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories
and fold your arms and then berate
if you would know the things I hate.
But time moves on; its getting late
The sunlight makes those shadows flee.
If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories.

What I Hate... a Sonnet

I hate it when you say you know me well
and then you ask me why I cry at night
you plot and scheme so that you can be right
and all the time I'm hiding in my shell
I keep my silence as you start to yell
and watch as children quickly run in fright
and look to me to aid them in their plight
and picture life in different shades of hell
I wear my guilt as if I were a saint
and say my beads where everyone can see
I smile and nod as if our love was swell
but all the time I scream at how you taint
the love I hold for you, and wish you'd see
I hate it when you say you know me well.

Hi, Boo. I hadn't seen the triolet before. These odd forms that rely on line repetitions are tricky, extremely difficult to do well, and I'm not fond of them. I'm not used to seeing "berate" used as an intransitive verb. There are two apparently possible objects, "me" and "memories" — inquiring minds want to know, heh... I like the poem: I like being made curious about the memories, the folded arms, the sunlight. The meter is perfect That evidences high skill, but makes for an uninteresting rhythm. (I shouldn't have said that; someone may make me start a thread.)

I think practicing the forms is a great idea. In the practice, a poet's word muscles get stretched and exercised considerably. You've done better at a triolet than I would have done, so kudos! But if you want to work at it some more, I'd gently turn you toward how strict adherence to regular meter is sometimes at war with rhythm, as well as being an unkind taskmaster, sometimes causing the inclusion of words that only serve to flesh out the meter, or the inclusion of words that aren't quite the right ones in the first place. If ye seek to be set free, O Poet, look ye to rhythm... (Well, it's still difficult, but it might loosen the chains a bit.)

The sonnet I had commented on before. I really like it; great job! This is the Petrarchan, or Italian sonnet. It is heavier work-out material for a poet because of the stringent limits on the number of rhymes, and the way they have to fall. Here also, you've repeated the first line at the end. That ain't easy to get away with. You and I had already corresponded about "quickly children" versus "children quickly" -- but now that I look again, how else would children run, but quickly? (You did say redundancy was fair game, right? lol) Here again, Boo, although it's a really good poem, I feel you being chained down by meter.

I just ran to Google for help, and have found an excellent site for you. With your fine mind and deep thirst for knowing, I think you'll get a lot out of it (although I'd ignore the last several paragraphs): T is for Trochee.

I could play with these poems all day, a thing I couldn't do if I didn't like them. I'd diss the titles first off; the poems outweigh the titles by far. Then I'd go back to them with grit in my teeth and fire in my eyes to tell them, "I am your Master. I will NOT let you have your way! You will say what I want you to!"

Boo, your excitement and interest are so interesting and exciting!

excerpted from BooMerengue's post:
1201? You stay out of this, ok? *smile

It's twelveoone's turn now...

Edited to correct misspellings –
Edited again to put in a missing quotation mark

 

[sandspike]

triolet 1 sonnet 0

Boo, Remember I write and read poetry by ear, can't worry
about different forms if I don't know them. #1- The triolet
was a smooth read that I understood right off the bat.
Working in that form ain't easy and I think you nailed it
well. #2 The sonnet wasn't as good to me. Your choice of
words and rhyme made me think you hurried this one out of
pen and finished it before the ink was dry. Why are you
worried about the response? What does dismal mean?
Back to the sonnet, the various lines didn't fit into a visual
for me, not examples I could pickup and piece together.
I don't usually tell people what I think unless I love the
work, I hope this helps you, but mainly its to get me closer
to 100 posts. I hate it when someone claims to help me, but they
are only doing it for their own advantage. Don't you?

 

[foehn]

*trying...

...to catch up with sandspike!* LOL

 

[sandspike]

Go Foehen! Go!

Man I've been here way over a year. I got the feeling you're
going to pass me by nitefall. Now keep this thread clean of
all the BS. The score is still triolent 1 sonnet .

 

[champagne1982]

What I Hate... a Triolet

If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories
and fold your arms and then berate
if you would know the things I hate.
But time moves on; its getting late
The sunlight makes those shadows flee.
If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories.

[Boo, I have been remiss. My excuse, as inadequate as it is, is that I've been busy and my mind has been on other things.

Sometimes, to comment on a poem, so dependent on construct as a triolet or a villanelle, takes as much thought and effort as the actual writing of the piece, so take that as a plea for understanding my dereliction.

Now, to the poem:
You have a strong pair of key lines to open the poem.
They run together smoothly, are comfortable to say
aloud and for me, they are not outside my experience.

You introduce hate and wonder and sunshine, strong
emotions and strong imagery. I like how the symbol
of light and warmth moves us into understanding hate
and back into the wonder.
Your mechanics are very good, have I ever shown you
triolet I wrote to match one of Rhinoguy's faery
illustrations? I would attach it here, but I think
the image is too large, but the poem goes:

Fae Fountain

I dream of her ancient rites as she sings,
dancing timeless rhythm near this fleshy fountain,
giving offerings of fluttering like faery wings.
I dream of her ancient rites as she sings
songs of promised delights her body brings.
As I sleep near her home at the foot of God's mountain,
I dream of her ancient rites as she sings,
dancing timeless rhythm near this fleshy fountain.

I enjoyed this very much. Thanks for posting in response to the challenge. Hopefully, I'll get to the sonnet but if I don't, I just want to let you know that this is good, mechanically, but I hope you rework it with a more sophisticated rhyme scheme.

 

[twelveoone]

Without Comment

http://www.sonnets.org/


see here also, linked from above

 

[BooMerengue]

I read all of 'em [the Literotica Poetry Contest entries] 3 times... really hard to choose, but I did. I sure am glad I didn't enter.

Can someone please tell me why rhyme is so taboo?

 

[*Catbabe*]

I read all of 'em 3 times... really hard to choose, but I did. I sure am glad I didn't enter.

Can someone please tell me why rhyme is so taboo?

Hi Boo,

I wouldn't say that rhyme is considered taboo. For sure there are people who just don't like to hear the sing song effect that rhyme often gives a poem but for the most part I think people shy away from "forced rhyme" not all ryhme.

If a form, whether formal or othewise has rhyme in the same place (like the end of line breaks) then what are the chances that the meaning and stength of the poem won't be affected by the poet having to rhyme?

If the poet was writing free form then they can focus on choosing the strongest word that holds the most meaning but if it needs to rhyme then that limits the options a great deal and sometimes waters down the poem.

That is NOT to say that rhyming poems are watered down at all!! There are amazing rhyming poems. However, in my opinion, it is something that is very difficult to do well without comprimising other aspects of the poem. As I said, that's just my opinion though...

 

[BooMerengue]

Hi Boo,

I wouldn't say that rhyme is considered taboo. For sure there are people who just don't like to hear the sing song effect that rhyme often gives a poem but for the most part I think people shy away from "forced rhyme" not all ryhme.

If a form, whether formal or othewise has rhyme in the same place (like the end of line breaks) then what are the chances that the meaning and stength of the poem won't be affected by the poet having to rhyme?

If the poet was writing free form then they can focus on choosing the strongest word that holds the most meaning but if it needs to rhyme then that limits the options a great deal and sometimes waters down the poem.

That is NOT to say that rhyming poems are watered down at all!! There are amazing rhyming poems. However, in my opinion, it is something that is very difficult to do well without comprimising other aspects of the poem. As I said, that's just my opinion though...

You're right, Cat, but I think this trend towards free verse is (NOT in all cases) an easy way out. I think it's hard work to use a rhyme, or meter, or form or all combined, and still manage to say something profound.

I wrote a poem recently and it got a low vote. I wrote the voter and asked why. He said he didn't like rhyming poetry, and didn't like sonnets. In further conversations it came out that the guys an ace at different types of poetry, and he wants to teach me and I think thats pretty cool, but does that mean if I continue to use the forms that have been handed down for centuries I'll get slammed here? I seriously don't think I'm going to post anymore here unless I just happen to have a 'flash' moment and pound out some strong feelings. Those are the poems I write that get good reviews. But I think its a disservice to new poets and old to show such a strong preference on this site for only one style.

Am I way off base?

 

[*Catbabe*]

You're right, Cat, but I think this trend towards free verse is (NOT in all cases) an easy way out. I think it's hard work to use a rhyme, or meter, or form or all combined, and still manage to say something profound.

I wrote a poem recently and it got a low vote. I wrote the voter and asked why. He said he didn't like rhyming poetry, and didn't like sonnets. In further conversations it came out that the guys an ace at different types of poetry, and he wants to teach me and I think thats pretty cool, but does that mean if I continue to use the forms that have been handed down for centuries I'll get slammed here? I seriously don't think I'm going to post anymore here unless I just happen to have a 'flash' moment and pound out some strong feelings. Those are the poems I write that get good reviews. But I think its a disservice to new poets and old to show such a strong preference on this site for only one style.

Am I way off base?

I don't think your feelings are off base at all Boo and your right free-verse can be an "easy " way out for some.

I think every poem should be judged on its merits as a whole . For a critic to say they didn't like a poem because of its form or rhyme scheme isn't entirely fair. It's of course their right, but it doesn't really help the poet who wrote it much at all.

I think most readers know their personal preferences in terms of what works for them and what they like. I think if they see a poem like a sonnet and they hate all sonnets then don't waste everyone's time by writing the poet and telling her you don't like sonnets.

I personally wouldn't be bothered by that kind of feedback Boo because that person isn't talking about your writing necessarily, just the shape it has taken in that once instance. If writing sonnets appeals to you, then you should write sonnets and maybe find a home for them where they will be better appreciated. or post 'em here and ignore comments like the ones you received.

I think I have a website or journal some where in files that only asks for formal poetry pieces. If I find it I will send it to you.

 

[BooMerengue]

I don't think your feelings are off base at all Boo and your right free-verse can be an "easy " way out for some.

I think every poem should be judged on its merits as a whole . For a critic to say they didn't like a poem because of its form or rhyme scheme isn't entirely fair. It's of course their right, but it doesn't really help the poet who wrote it much at all.

I think most readers know their personal preferences in terms of what works for them and what they like. I think if they see a poem like a sonnet and they hate all sonnets then don't waste everyone's time by writing the poet and telling her you don't like sonnets.

I personally wouldn't be bothered by that kind of feedback Boo because that person isn't talking about your writing necessarily, just the shape it has taken in that once instance. If writing sonnets appeals to you, then you should write sonnets and maybe find a home for them where they will be better appreciated. or post 'em here and ignore comments like the ones you received.

I think I have a website or journal some where in files that only asks for formal poetry pieces. If I find it I will send it to you.

I would love that, Cat. I have a fat file of work I won't post here. Thanks, Babe!

 

[*Catbabe*]

I can't find the one I was thinking of but I will keep looking.

Here's one that I found that specifically mentions that they accept formal writing.

http://www.comstockreview.org/howtosubmit.html

 

[sandspike]

Ouch! and rhyme.

I'm taking a bath on this thing. I just knew I shouldn't of jumped
into a winter contest. I like most of what I have read and I'm
still making up my mind on some votes. My mind was thinking
there would be more poems. I also find myself voting for
poems which are much a like in form, (line lenght, etc.). This
contest is showing me a lot about how I view poetry, that is
a good thing. Boo, I didn't rhyme in this contest because I
thought it would loose votes and maybe tell people who wrote
the damn thing. I agree with a lot you posted above the post.
Overall this is fun. I thought I could pick out who wrote what but
it ain't happening. My thanks to Literotica and The Poets for
coming up w/ this. Maybe we can do something w/ bars or
beaches when it warms up.

 

[The Mutt]

I would love that, Cat. I have a fat file of work I won't post here. Thanks, Babe!

Some of my sonnets have been very well received here. Others, not so much.
I like the mental exercise of fitting my thoughts into a standard sized container. The villanelle has so many rhymes, tho, that I think you can hardly help but go to the well once too often and end up scrunching in a thought that doesn't fit just to satisfy the rhyme scheme.
Sonnets aren't that brutal.

 

[HomerPindar]

You're right, Cat, but I think this trend towards free verse is (NOT in all cases) an easy way out. I think it's hard work to use a rhyme, or meter, or form or all combined, and still manage to say something profound.

I wrote a poem recently and it got a low vote. I wrote the voter and asked why. He said he didn't like rhyming poetry, and didn't like sonnets. In further conversations it came out that the guys an ace at different types of poetry, and he wants to teach me and I think thats pretty cool, but does that mean if I continue to use the forms that have been handed down for centuries I'll get slammed here? I seriously don't think I'm going to post anymore here unless I just happen to have a 'flash' moment and pound out some strong feelings. Those are the poems I write that get good reviews. But I think its a disservice to new poets and old to show such a strong preference on this site for only one style.

Am I way off base?

This sort of prejudgemental idiocy deserves to get smacked up side the head with a Norton Anthology of Poetry.

Seeing as I started writing poetry by using forms (the completion of a set structure allowed me to feel confident that what I wrote qualified as a poem at least) I'm all for folks sticking with writing modern themes with classic styles - it certainly should not be seen as any less a challenge if not more so.

As for rhyming, that is how people are introduced to poetry; Dr. Seuss for example - brilliant, but considered for children. Hence, once grown, people continue to associate rhyme with childhood, or childish writing. Mature themes get 'childfied' (a new word, write that one down in your dictionary) when put in rhyme. This does not mean it should not be done, or that the trend is not worth working against, indeed it has been argued that all advancement in mankind is found in the act of resisting pre-existing taboo. If rhyme truely is taboo in mature themes, then it is all the more reason to go that way.

With that in mind, I'm gonna go write a villanelle or some such.

 

[twelveoone]

This sort of prejudgemental idiocy deserves to get smacked up side the head with a Norton Anthology of Poetry.

Seeing as I started writing poetry by using forms (the completion of a set structure allowed me to feel confident that what I wrote qualified as a poem at least) I'm all for folks sticking with writing modern themes with classic styles - it certainly should not be seen as any less a challenge if not more so.

As for rhyming, that is how people are introduced to poetry; Dr. Seuss for example - brilliant, but considered for children. Hence, once grown, people continue to associate rhyme with childhood, or childish writing. Mature themes get 'childfied' (a new word, write that one down in your dictionary) when put in rhyme. This does not mean it should not be done, or that the trend is not worth working against, indeed it has been argued that all advancement in mankind is found in the act of resisting pre-existing taboo. If rhyme truely is taboo in mature themes, then it is all the more reason to go that way.

With that in mind, I'm gonna go write a villanelle or some such.

This does not belong in this thread.
1.) here I am Homer, care too?
2.) Statement I made is the exact inverse of statements made by Boo on numerous occasions
3.) low score was a 75, work I felt was substandard for her
4.) I left two comments,scores 100 and 75 go read them, defended one score
5.) everyone has prejudices, most do not admit them, I do.
6.) the prejudice was about sonnets, not rhyme, and I suggest to both you and her, the theme would have been better served by free text She changed the theme slightly, organized it better and pulled it off with the Troilet

take the time, take the time, do the rhyme
but do it right
As I said, none of this belongs in this thread, I request this whole string be moved, it has nothing to do with the winter poems.

 

[HomerPindar]

What I Hate... a Triolet

If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories
and fold your arms and then berate
if you would know the things I hate.
But time moves on; its getting late
The sunlight makes those shadows flee.
If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories.

Actually, I really like this. I think I agree with the one comment that the "...berate" line is little off, I expect a thing to be berated rather than it being used in place of "bitch" or "complain" or some other clear choice that wouldn't rhyme. But, as I am taking a class in semenatics now I realize that there's no reason you can't use the word as you did, it's meaning is understood and that's the point of communication.

What I Hate... a Sonnet

I hate it when you say you know me well
and then you ask me why I cry at night
you plot and scheme so that you can be right
and all the time I'm hiding in my shell
I keep my silence as you start to yell
and watch as children quickly run in fright
and look to me to aid them in their plight
and picture life in different shades of hell
I wear my guilt as if I were a saint
and say my beads where everyone can see
I smile and nod as if our love was swell
but all the time I scream at how you taint
the love I hold for you, and wish you'd see
I hate it when you say you know me well.


Unlike the triolet, the first two lines here are not your strongest, indeed they are reminiscent of teanage angst poetry. Show how you are known so well rather than state you are known so well. Describe the act of crying rather than 'cry at night.' Or course, just doing that to those two line would problably take up a whole new poem for you.

And remember, it is not the poem that is weakened by the forms or rhyme that you use, it is the reader that is weakened by refusing such elements outright.

 

[twelveoone]

What I Hate... a Triolet

If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories
and fold your arms and then berate
if you would know the things I hate.
But time moves on; its getting late
The sunlight makes those shadows flee.
If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories.

Actually, I really like this. I think I agree with the one comment that the "...berate" line is little off, I expect a thing to be berated rather than it being used in place of "bitch" or "complain" or some other clear choice that wouldn't rhyme. But, as I am taking a class in semenatics now I realize that there's no reason you can't use the word as you did, it's meaning is understood and that's the point of communication.

What I Hate... a Sonnet

I hate it when you say you know me well
and then you ask me why I cry at night
you plot and scheme so that you can be right
and all the time I'm hiding in my shell
I keep my silence as you start to yell
and watch as children quickly run in fright
and look to me to aid them in their plight
and picture life in different shades of hell
I wear my guilt as if I were a saint
and say my beads where everyone can see
I smile and nod as if our love was swell
but all the time I scream at how you taint
the love I hold for you, and wish you'd see
I hate it when you say you know me well.


Unlike the triolet, the first two lines here are not your strongest, indeed they are reminiscent of teanage angst poetry. Show how you are known so well rather than state you are known so well. Describe the act of crying rather than 'cry at night.' Or course, just doing that to those two line would problably take up a whole new poem for you.

And remember, it is not the poem that is weakened by the forms or rhyme that you use, it is the reader that is weakened by refusing such elements outright.

and I agree

 

[BooMerengue]

Enough already with the emails and PM's. I got several low votes and feedbacks- I am NOT speaking to just one person. I could have named names- I chose not to... thats not why I started the thread or the conversation in the first place.

I don't have any problems w/ the moderators or the reviewers here. Neither do I have a problem with a low vote per se. I just wanted to know why. Thats all.

Don't we all have to be over 18 to post here?

And the reason I said "1201- you keep out!" is because he and I had already discussed my poems at length. I wanted to hear from others.

So... everything ok now? I hope so...

Lets move on...

Next challenge, please?

 

[BooMerengue]

What I Hate... a Triolet

If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories
and fold your arms and then berate(me)
if you would know the things I hate.
But time moves on; its getting late
The sunlight makes those shadows flee.
If you would know the things I hate
you'd wonder at my memories.

Actually, I really like this. I think I agree with the one comment that the "...berate" line is little off, I expect a thing to be berated rather than it being used in place of "bitch" or "complain" or some other clear choice that wouldn't rhyme. But, as I am taking a class in semenatics now I realize that there's no reason you can't use the word as you did, it's meaning is understood and that's the point of communication.

What I Hate... a Sonnet

I hate it when you say you know me well
and then you ask me why I cry at night
you plot and scheme so that you can be right
and all the time I'm hiding in my shell
I keep my silence as you start to yell
and watch as children quickly run in fright
and look to me to aid them in their plight
and picture life in different shades of hell
I wear my guilt as if I were a saint
and say my beads where everyone can see
I smile and nod as if our love was swell
but all the time I scream at how you taint
the love I hold for you, and wish you'd see
I hate it when you say you know me well.


Unlike the triolet, the first two lines here are not your strongest, indeed they are reminiscent of teanage angst poetry. Show how you are known so well rather than state you are known so well. Describe the act of crying rather than 'cry at night.' Or course, just doing that to those two line would problably take up a whole new poem for you.

And remember, it is not the poem that is weakened by the forms or rhyme that you use, it is the reader that is weakened by refusing such elements outright.

the first two lines here are not your strongest, indeed they are reminiscent of teanage angst poetry.

The first 2 lines answer the title. Its a thing I really hate. 'teenage angst'... it seems to be a taboo subject here... thats not good, cuz it's that angst that gets people started writing in the first place in many cases. I'mm 55... not a lot of any kind of angst- just flat out anger! LOL

This poem was written for my daughter, not a fellow, or a lover. Does that make it easier?

If you know me so well why would you HAVE to ask why I cry...

"Show how you are known so well rather than state you are known so well. Describe the act of crying rather than 'cry at night.' " The poem is about What I Hate... not about how I am known or how I cry.

you're right- it would be a whole nother poem. LOL

Thanks, Homer!

 

[twelveoone]

Enough already with the emails and PM's. I got several low votes and feedbacks- I am NOT speaking to just one person. I could have named names- I chose not to... thats not why I started the thread or the conversation in the first place.

I don't have any problems w/ the moderators or the reviewers here. Neither do I have a problem with a low vote per se. I just wanted to know why. Thats all.

Don't we all have to be over 18 to post here?

And the reason I said "1201- you keep out!" is because he and I had already discussed my poems at length. I wanted to hear from others.

So... everything ok now? I hope so...

Lets move on...

Next challenge, please?

but I hope you realize, my name (or number) was the only one mentioned, and I believe, I left public comments on both, I suspect, some would be rather perceptive here, and put the numbers (duh) together.
I saw this continue in another thread.
I am sorry if you get hit with an anon low bomber, I leave my name and I defend what I say.
Now, what did you think of the web-addresses?
The first I hope you enjoyed. (and yes I read a few, and yes I liked a few)
The second was some of what you will run up against using that form.

the form must follow the function

now, lets move on...

 

[BooMerengue]

but I hope you realize, my name (or number) was the only one mentioned, and I believe, I left public comments on both, I suspect, some would be rather perceptive here, and put the numbers (duh) together.
I saw this continue in another thread.
I am sorry if you get hit with an anon low bomber, I leave my name and I defend what I say.
Now, what did you think of the web-addresses?
The first I hope you enjoyed. (and yes I read a few, and yes I liked a few)
The second was some of what you will run up against using that form.

the form must follow the function

now, lets move on...

Hon... I bookmarked the addy's. With this funeral and sooo much family visiting, and getting snowed out of New England I haven't had time to look at much of anything. And my puter is in the process of getting Super sized, and souped up, so I'm on my sis' pc. No privacy. Now I'm looking for a cheap bigger monitor. Then when all of that is fixed I'll get serious again.