Sick Society?

[SeaCat]

After reading and participating in another thread I was wondering. Does the United States have a sick society?
We are showing more sexuality on our TV shows, including prime time, showing more nudity in our movies, yet we tell our children this is not what they should be doing.
Public nudity is a no-no here. We punish it with Indescent Exposure, fines, and in some cases jail time. ( People claim it injures our children yet they see the same thing in movies.) In places specific bathing suits are banned because they are indecent. Yet we show ads in the magazines aimed at young women with these bathing suits.
We glamorise sex, while making it a taboo subject at home. (I have seen cases where parents tried talking to their children about sex at home, and were brought up on charges of Contirbuting to the Delinquency of a minor or worse, sexual abuse.)
We have outlawed certain types of sexual actions, (Sodomy comes to mind as one of the most recent,) and allowed this to be enforced. (Now how do you enforce a law like this without looking in peoples windows? Which happens to be illegal.)
We question the sexual history of rape victims, with the idea of if they are sexualy promiscouse or dress the wrong way they are asking for it, while rarely looking at the circumstances of the rape or the history of the rapist.
Again my question is, are we living in a sick society here?

 

[Master Nerd]

Not 'sick' so much as 'stupid' and 'fucked up'.

 

[LeatherCandle]

Personally I think it's all about the "thrill" factor. What can we put on the air and get away with? What can we show in our magazines and not have banned from stands? What is the limit society will put on the sexuality in their every day lives?

While corporations and such are pushing those limits, we every day civilians are dealing with it in our homes, in our work place, in our schools.

I teach in a preschool that allows children up to the age of 12. You don't know horror until you see a six year old mimicing the moves of a pole dancer on the playground.

 

[oggbashan]

I think you (and I) are living in a scoiety where the rules are set by politicians. They believe that passing a law or a regulation can stop the tide coming in.

To quote a US president:

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realise that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." Ronald Reagan at a conference in L.A. 2 March 1977


Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think you (and I) are living in a scoiety where the rules are set by politicians. They believe that passing a law or a regulation can stop the tide coming in.

To quote a US president:

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realise that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." Ronald Reagan at a conference in L.A. 2 March 1977


Og

When the use of daylight savings time was being debated in the house one represenative took the floor and announced he was against the law because an extra hour of sunlight would cause drapes and curtains to fade faster and thus it was a law that would burden wives unduly. Sad but true.

That said our country is very sick in the mental health sense. We are almost bi-polar. The over ridding moral drive is set in the puritanical beginings of the country and the attitudes towards sex, violence and free expression of that very strict religion. It's juxtaposed to the very humanistic dives built into the constitution by our founding fathers when they relyed heavily on Locke and others to shape our governmental form.

The country also seems to vaccilate from very conservative to very liberal in our outlook. The roaring 20's, 60's and guilded age were very liberal periods. The 50's and regan years were very conservative. With each swing however some things remain. Those things become incongruent with the current swing.

Women's sufferage came with a liberal swing. The "kill the bastards" foerign policy that G.W. is employing came with the Regan years. Sexual and reporductive freedom came with the 60's and to a lesser degree the 70's. Many of the more repressive laws dealing with sex are holdouts from the 50's and even earlier. Hollywood has almost always been a liberal bastion just as the deep south has almost always been a conservative one. It shouldn't seem all that strange to see ambivilent or even contrary views on issues given the large range of peoples, cultures and ideas that this country embraces.

-Colly

 

[oggbashan]

The country also seems to vaccilate from very conservative to very liberal in our outlook. The roaring 20's, 60's and guilded age were very liberal periods.

-Colly

The rest of your post I can understand but "the roaring twenties" with "the noble experiment of prohibition" was not exactly liberal from the standpoint of the other side of the Atlantic.

It was described as "the triumph of hope over experience" but it damaged the US because it made criminals of large sections of society. A law that is likely to be broken by a large minority or even a majority is a bad law and should never have been passed.

Our government is trying to ban fox-hunting with hounds. Ignoring the arguments for or against, a large minority would disobey the law, including local justices, police officers etc. There is possibly a majority of Members of Parliament for the ban but not a majority in the country as a whole. Most don't care one way or the other. Many more people marched through London protesting against the proposed ban on fox-hunting than those objecting to the war in Iraq.

When the middle classes in this country get angry most politicians run for cover. The fox hunting ban has been quietly dropped.

All handguns are banned in the UK after a couple of nasty mass murders by insane men. There was a public outcry so guns were banned. Since then gun crime has increased because only criminals have the guns.

Politicians should be disqualified from holding office if they WANT to be politicians.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The roaring 20's. Prohibition made criminals of most everyone with one fell swoop of the presidential pen. Speakeasys, flappers, out and out criminals who were as popular as sports heros. The times were liberal because even the most conservative of people were regularly and willfully breaking the law.

It is a classic case of vocal special interest groups influencing politicians to pass laws that were not the will of all society or the majority, but suited only a small group. Since almost everyone was breaking the law on a regular basis things became very destableized. In Chicago nearly the whole police force was on the take from the Gangsters and only a very few crusaders thought there was anything wrong with it. Until the lawlessness became so rampat that your average citizen felt threatened people laughed it off.

It was a noble experiment only in the minds of those who concocted it and like most blatant attempts to legislate high moral fibre it backfired horribly. Public morals and expectatins sank to an all time low. Nearly everyone knew where the gangsters made their illicit brew and where the closest speakeasy was, but Mike the local beat cop was on the take and since that speakeasy was where you stopped off after work for a drink or two no one was informing on them.

Women's rights and freedoms were vastly expanded. A woman in the 50's could look back at how her grandmother lived and legitimately feel the country had taken several steps backwards.

-Colly

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I think it's a case of double standards. You poor yanks want to be free and sensual, but you're brought up to go to church on Sundays, never fart in public, and not enjoy your sexlife.

You need to relax and go with the flow... of ejaculation!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think it's a case of double standards. You poor yanks want to be free and sensual, but you're brought up to go to church on Sundays, never fart in public, and not enjoy your sexlife.

You need to relax and go with the flow... of ejaculation!

Perhaps not so much a double standard as recieving two messages with equal force that are at heart contradictory.

Dad: Son, you have the right to freedom of speech, the press and the inalineable right to life liberty and the pusiut of happiness, cherish them.

Son: Great dad! I like wearing sis's clothes around the house.

Dad: You can't do that! it's wrong!

Son: But...

We are taught to cherish our freedoms and our freedom of expression, but in almost the same breath we get a hearty dose of how a man (or woman) should behave. The one is inspired by secular humanists the other by very old fashioned ideas of sex, sexuality and propriety. Societal norms are delivered with the force of gospel and breaking those norms incurs enormous resistance.

This divide seems to be a chasm nowadays because our two major political parties have polarized on these basic issues. The democratic party is socially liberal, the republican party has been hijacked by fundamentalists christians and Neo-conservatives. The democrats won't be happy until every societal norm that is based on a moral principle has been erased. The Republicans won't be happy until the only acceptable (and legal) diversion for a good citizen is staying home and reading your bible, probably by candle light.

It isn't any wonder that we seem a county with a split peronality.

-Colly

 

[Svenskaflicka]

See? You won't get happy until you learn to give soicety norms the finger.

I'm labelled "slut", but I sure had fun earning that label!

 

[LadyJane]

The idea that the U.S. is a sexually repressed society is ludicrous! Sex and sexuality are rampant. The fact that we have no nude beaches (actually there is one south of here in Orange County of all places) and there are a few archaic laws still on the books to which nobody pays attention does not a repressive society make...

 

[A7inchPhildo]

See? You won't get happy until you learn to give soicety norms the finger.

I'm labelled "slut", but I sure had fun earning that label!

That is not such a bad label, I can think of worse!


Politics and church do not mix simple as that! The problem is only amplified in todays society because of the abundance of laws that do not pertain for each individual situation.

I like nude (all natural) beaches, you don't who is right? The federal goverment says it is wrong to be in public naked. Ah, but every federal property has atleast one area that can only be used if you are nude (or a federal employee). Did you know that?

State and local law just complicates the matter because federal is first and formost then seconded by local but it depends on which direction wether or not local is even pertinant.

Example: Florida does not allow nudity in public not even the sugestion is allowed by the state law. Some towns take that even further speaking of being nude in public is a problem (St. Augustine). Go to the St. Augustine beach any given day and your going to see naked girls, very few men. The beach of St. Augustine is actually owned by the county they have different thoughts on what is permissable (Thank God) and unless there is a commotion it is welcome.
But then what about Daytona? Even better still Cape Canaveral (space shuttle central) One of the most used beaches and a portion is not clothing optional it is NUDE only! Same with Fire Island NY. You may know NY city does not have a top law for females any place in the city. Except you guessed it "in" public buildings.

If the idiots would stop making stupid laws there would be no reason for the fools to prove there are loop holes. And if the Fools stoped proving the loop holes there would be no need for new stupid laws.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

The idea that the U.S. is a sexually repressed society is ludicrous! Sex and sexuality are rampant. The fact that we have no nude beaches (actually there is one south of here in Orange County of all places) and there are a few archaic laws still on the books to which nobody pays attention does not a repressive society make...

There are several in Florida" Haulover Beach, Miami Beach (Lummus Park), Seminole Club (davie fl), Palm beach (west P.B.), Sunsport gardens (loxahatchee), Sunnier Palms (Ft Pierce),
Canaveral National Seashore: (Playalinda, and Apollo beach, merrit Island), Sunny Sands (pierson), Cypress Cove (kissimmee), Sanibel (Ft myers), Bowmans (Sanibel Island), Cayo Costa Island (near ft Myers), Southern Exposure(Naples), Pine Island (St James city), Tampa Bay (Beer can island, Egmont key, cape freedom), Clearwater (Three rooker Island, Third Island, Little honeymoon Island,Caladesi Island) Club paradise (land O'lakes),City retreat (Hudson), Riverboat club (land O'lakes) And the list goes on...and on...

Orange county you would use Canaveral they are the best only closed at a shuttle launch. If your interested I can give you phone/fax numbers, directions and rules to Playalinda and South Apollo. Not so easy to find if you do not know what you are looking for. Even though they are federal beaches you will see very few signs.

Recomended book. http://bookstore.mywebworldcenter.com/n_0934106215.htm

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Just because you have swim suit magazines and sexy commericals, doesn't make you non-repressed. A country that has states which outlaws anal sex, a country where politicians talk about God in public, a country where having sex is called "getting down and dirty"... if not sexually repressed, you're atleast sensually repressed!

 

[pop_54]

Hmmmmmm

We have nude beaches in the UK and I think they do in Sweden, but it's generally too fucking cold to use them as such It's bad enough with what God gave me, but shrink it by a bit with the cold and it's bloody ridiculous.

Double standards everywhere I'm afraid, all politicians are the same, 'don't do as I do, do as I say'. Same with the church.

 

[SeaCat]

A7InchPhildo Where in?

Where in West Palm Beach is this nude beach? the only beach I know of called Palm Beach is the one faced by the Luxury homesof the rich and famouse on A1A and my wife was chased off there last week for wearing a Thong.
There is, however, John D. MacArthur State Park north of Blue Heron, but even there it's barely condoned. You will be fined if you are caught by the Rangers. (So keep a sharp eye out.)
If you know of any others in this area please let me know.

 

[LadyJane]

Do you want to see sexually repressed Americans? I'll show you sexually repressed Americans. Go to New Orleans during Mardi Gras, go to West Hollywood during Halloween, go to south Florida during spring break, hell, come on down to Venice Beach, CA - lots of sexually repressed Americans hanging out there. Yessiree, there are sexually repressed Americans sexually repressing all over the U S of A!

On a related note, it's interesting how certain stereotypes persist. HBO is showing a special on an American photographer/artist whose art consists of photographing nude people in public places. He had no trouble at all finding people to pose for him all over the U.S.; Europe, however, was a different matter. When he went to France, his French friends warned him that he'd have difficulties. He didn't believe them as he'd always heard how sophisticated and liberal the French were in all matters sexual. His friends cautioned him that the French talked a good game, but the reality was quite different. Sure enough, he had more problems in France than anywhere else finding people to pose nude for him in public. No such problems in Melbourne. He advertised for 2,000 people to show up nude at a particular place, and he got thousands and thousands of people. It was a very cool photograph!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Do you want to see sexually repressed Americans? I'll show you sexually repressed Americans. Go to New Orleans during Mardi Gras, go to West Hollywood during Halloween, go to south Florida during spring break, hell, come on down to Venice Beach, CA - lots of sexually repressed Americans hanging out there. Yessiree, there are sexually repressed Americans sexually repressing all over the U S of A!

And how many of them would do the same thing if they were sober?

 

[OldnotDead]

...
No such problems in Melbourne. He advertised for 2,000 people to show up nude at a particular place, and he got thousands and thousands of people. It was a very cool photograph!

Of course he did. The ad said "Free Sheep"

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Re: A7InchPhildo Where in?

Where in West Palm Beach is this nude beach? the only beach I know of called Palm Beach is the one faced by the Luxury homesof the rich and famouse on A1A and my wife was chased off there last week for wearing a Thong.
There is, however, John D. MacArthur State Park north of Blue Heron, but even there it's barely condoned. You will be fined if you are caught by the Rangers. (So keep a sharp eye out.)
If you know of any others in this area please let me know.

Palm Beach Naturists:
For information send a (SASE) to P.O.Box 432, West Palm Beach, Fl. 33402 Phone (407) 844-5434

Sunsport Gardens:
Semi-tropical nudest park, site of annual February Naturist gatherings. Social Club, Restaurant, vollyball, pool, spa, saunna, fishing, nature trails, tennis; tent and RV spaces available 20 miles to North Palm Beach. 14125 North Road, Loxahatchee, Fl. 33470 (407) 793-0423

South East Florida changes frequently but you can order information on Just that area My book says it is $3. three dollars, but this is 5 years old for the info pack but then lists Phone numbers as well to update
Free Beaches Miami and south East Florida, P.O.Box 330902, Cocunut Grove, Fl. 33133 Phone (305) 782-7408 fax (305) 782-2683

Please keep in mind I do not frequent palm beach that is about 4 hours from my house. I do have family in Boca but they do not do the naked stuff. I do know Haulover Beach was nice this past summer and is free Dade county $3 to park I-95 Golden glades interchange, SR826 east 125th st. Haulover County Park 150th street on Collins ave. (rt A1A) Park in the north parking lot Walk to the beach through the tunnel underpass has handicap access. Has 1/2 mile of beach, restrooms, food, life guards and signage for nudity.

I hope that helps seacat <- curious is that your boat I got a 35world cat and all I can think of when I see seacat is the seacat boat.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

And how many of them would do the same thing if they were sober?

Me!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

LOL

 

[OldnotDead]

On a more serious note about the subject, I do not think of it as sick, or even neurotic. It's more a problem of unresolved differences.

I personally believe that children, elementary age children, should be allowed to be children and not have to grow up so soon and deal with adult humor and sexual innuendo. But between safety issues and those that want to enforce their version of sex education on a schedule that is arbitrary, I was faced with discussing things at an earlier age than necessary.

Our freedoms allow "Friends" to be on at 8 pm and many of our fellow citizens gather their children with them to watch so it was one of the most popular shows of third grade children one year (that's 8 year olds, for those not in the US) Understand, please, I have no issue with the show for adults. ( I personally think it is a highly irresponsible message show for an industry that prides itself on the support of HIV victims. Something that encourages such rampant promsicuity, to me, is inconsistent with helping to control aids, but that's just me)

I would prefer that my kids are not under such pressure to have sex at a young age. Sex is tough enough for 'grown ups' to sort out and I think it is even harder for kids. And we're not talking just morals. We're talking about life and death issues now.

The other issue going on in our area is a 'party game' attitude towards teenage sex. The boys will all sit around in chairs in a semicircle while girls take turns giving them blowjobs. I'm talking 14-15 year olds. ( Don't get me wrong, there is a part of me that wishes *I* were 14 ) Realistically, STD's are rampant in our high schools. . But what bothers me is what this represents in terms of personal pressure.

I would prefer more of my kids decisions were their own. We've let them know what we think. It's very different now from when I was in High School. The 'sexual revolution' happened in college for my crowd and we did not have to worry about AIDS. The media was loosening up, but the shows and advertising were actually behind the times.

And not to mention the frankness of TV news now. Can anyone remember that IF sexual misconduct were reported, it would euphemistically referred to as 'morals charges'. Am I the only one that remembers when the current Connecticut Senior Senator's DAD (Dodd) was censured in the Senate and lost his seniority because of an 'association' with a woman not his wife? WE certainly didn't get all the 'fun' details we get today.

At the same time, we all want a more frank discussion. I want my daughter to know it's ok to say 'no'. I also want my sons to know that if a woman says 'no' she means it. I'm annoyed at the coverage of the Jackson and Bryant cases because of what I believe about the anonymity of vistims and the unconvicted. At the same time, I'm glad that it lets my family know that I feel strongly that no one should ever be pressured into having sex.

If I cannot sort out my own feelings about all the contradictions how can anyone sort out what a mixed society like ours should think and act?