Siberian Natives: Russia's "Indians".

[SEVERUSMAX]

Evidently, the Soviet era, especially under Stalin, was especially harsh toward these indigenous Siberians, who are interestingly closely related to Native Americans and indigenous Canadians (and other nations in the Americas). Collectivization, forced Russification, and general efforts to coerce the native peoples to give up their nomadic way of life reminds one precisely of the barbarous treatment of Native Americans in the past centuries.

Odd, that the two most powerful nations of the Cold War era had the same guilty history in dealings with the natives. Though there were no treaties for the native Siberians. There was never any pretense of respecting their national identity and sovereignty to an extent that would lead to treaties. There was just the iron heel of the NKVD. Not the Tsarists were all that nice, either. They were just tame compared to Stalin and other Communist leaders.

Not blaming the present generation of Russians (any more than I would Americans), nor am I bashing Russia (any more than I would America). Just noting the strange parallel here.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

There's a beautiful 1975 Kurusawa film, "Dersu Uzala" )http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071411/). It is set in the czarist early 20th C, when, a "Russian army explorer who is rescued in Siberia by a rugged Asiatic hunter renews his friendship with the woodsman years later when he returns at the head of a larger expedition. The hunter finds that all his nature lore is of no help when he accompanies the explorer back to civilisation."

 

[amicus]

severusmax...."...Odd, that the two most powerful nations of the Cold War era had the same guilty history in dealings with the natives. .."

~~~


Will not speculate as to why you chose to post what you did, other than your stated reason, as to the similarity.

But I naturally bridle just a tad at your use of 'guilty history' in dealings with natives.

I suggest you consider, 'politically correct', I suggest you consider that the entire 'modern world' since the Phoenicians, enslaved Native Africans, 'Nubians', as a matter of course.

I am sure you are aware that conquered peoples in every culture were enslaved and seldom, if ever, enfranchised. There are a few exceptions of course but not many.

Native Americans were basically an hostile and savage peoples, perhaps not of choice, but of competing tribes and cultures of male dominance and conquest.

While I, as a 20th Century American, do not feel the least bit of guilt for what my ancestors did, nor do I take pride from it. Rather, I consider the events that occurred to be rather natural and logical as events developed.

The 'New World', could never be an aboriginal, hunter/gatherer society that 'shared' the land and the resources based on tribal custom. The Europeans that became the 'colonists' of the New World, had their own ways and their own vision of a future.

They could have lost. They almost did; but they did not and the competition of cultures began.

And when cultures compete, the most modern and sophisticated, scientifically, will overcome and that is what happened.

Guilt? I think not. Remorse? Only a little as nature is cruel and there is only one winner in a do or die conflict.

Sorry if I disappoint you, but, there it is.

amicus...

 

[kendo1]

There you go again, generalising.

Not all Africans were 'Nubians'.

Quote, ami :Native Americans were basically an hostile and savage peoples

We've been over this before, and still you persist in revolting the natives.

 

[rgraham666]

I suspect that's why Americans and Russians are so often at each others' throats. They're so similar they can't help but be in competition with one another.

 

[Liar]

The sky may yet fall, but I do agree with amicus here.

I am sure you are aware that conquered peoples in every culture were enslaved and seldom, if ever, enfranchised. There are a few exceptions of course but not many.

This is not a case of Russia and America being especially oppressive towards their aboriginal people. This have happened in almost every corner of the world at one time in history or another. The abriginals of Australia and New Zealand, and Romans of central Europe, the Sami people of n Europe, the Karele Finns... same pattern all over the place.

 

[cloudy]

The sky may yet fall, but I do agree with amicus here.


This is not a case of Russia and America being especially oppressive towards their aboriginal people. This have happened in almost every corner of the world at one time in history or another. The abriginals of Australia and New Zealand, and Romans of central Europe, the Sami people of n Europe, the Karele Finns... same pattern all over the place.

I think one difference is that it's still happening.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

If ami paid attention to what I wrote, instead of jumping to conclusions, he'd realize that I am not bashing my own country or Russia. I am an American, and there is much of which I am proud. That doesn't mean blindness to the disturbing parts of my country's history. Yes, every country has oppressed the natives, but the parallels between America and Russia are frighteningly close. Forced deportations, forced farming imposed on hunter-gatherers, seizure of land, and forced assimiliation. Not to mention attempted genocide in many cases. If there are fewer Siberians left, it's because of two things: Stalin pursued his policy with brutal efficiency and no ethical scruples whatsoever; and the regional climate is much harsher than America.

I am not saying that capitalism is as bad as Communism. This is simply a parallel between two rival nations with similar histories and similar senses of Manifest Destiny.

And, as Cloudy noted, it hasn't stopped. Life is still tough for the natives in Siberia, and it is very rough for Native Americans even now. There is even a common despair in many cases that has led to rampant alcoholism amid the depression. In the case of the Siberian natives, it is also bad in a way that it isn't for any of their cousins outside of Alaska: they also have to cope with months of sunless days.

I am not saying that you or I are personally culpable. However, even today, there are attempts to subvert the sovereignty of the native tribes. In Russia, there is no real respect for them, whatsoever. Yes, states have sovereignty of their own, but the Native Americans have a unique status that is based on being essentially sovereign nations displaced and having treaties with the United States. It's somewhat similar to the Puerto Ricans, except Puerto Rico was never a country. The reservations aren't so great, but they are all of the autonomy and land that the Native Americans have left.

Now, I am waiting for the usual remarks about how the Native Americans should stop acting as a community and the same thing with the native Siberians. How they should attempt to integrate into general society. Well, some do. But not all. This is akin to what would have happened had the Romans conquered Germania, except that the Romans wouldn't have stopped until they made the nomadic natives turn into farmers and city-dwellers. I am not opposed to voluntary assimiliation, if that is one's choice. But while most people here are descendents of immigrants and/or slaves and should stop hyphenating, the natives have treaties, they have sovereignty, and they have a different sort of economic and social way of life. As bad as life on the reservations is, it's their protection against future oppression and deportation.

And Siberian natives have their own traditional lands, but are still losing them, since they have no treaties and no recognition of any sovereignty by the Russian government. I can't blame Native Americans for not wanting to give up their guarantees against such things. I wouldn't want to go from bad to worse circumstances.

The Siberians need a new growth industry, but I doubt that casinos would work in such a harsh climate. Most of all, they need some of the same kind of recognition of their autonomy, at least, that the rest of the Russian nationalities get. Maybe an "indigenous autonomous republic" would be a great idea. Everyone else in Russia gets an autonomous republic or region or oblast or okreg. Why not them?

 

[Liar]

I think one difference is that it's still happening.

Just to clarify: Do you mean in Russia as opposed to other places? Or in the US? Or both?

 

[cloudy]

Just to clarify: Do you mean in Russia as opposed to other places? Or in the US? Or both?

I was talking about the US. I really don't know enough about the situation in Russia to be able to judge, unfortunately.