Should the Catholic Church be closed down...

[p_p_man]

by the authorities in each country where it oprates pending an investigation into its paedeophile activities.

I know we had a post yesterday but with more news coming out of Ireland today about the abuse of children going back over 60 years any other organisation would be immediately closed and the police sent in.

I'm beginning to feel the Catholic Church should be treated in the same way...

ppman

 

[Pamela]

I could give you a list of things that should be shut down due to paedeophile activities. I don't think there's a need to single out the catholic church.

 

[p_p_man]

I could give you a list of things that should be shut down due to paedeophile activities. I don't think there's a need to single out the catholic church.

Their activities are hitting the headlines.

They are a worldwide organisation.

There's enough proof being collected for the accusations to be true.

The Church itself admits its been happening.

Definitely a reason for a criminal investgation I would have thought...

This is one area where the church can't be trusted to police itself.

ppman

 

[Pamela]

All completely true....but there are many other organizations the are littered with the same problem.

Just ask any aboriginal person in Canada who went to a private school, especially in Manitoba. Ask any of the parents who sent their kids to Government subidized daycare in Martensville. Just ask the minister of my Lutheran church why he continues to let a convicted sex offender chaparone the youth group activities.

Its a wide spread problem, that didn't start with, and won't end with the catholic church. I don't think its fair to single them out in this situation.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

You go Pamela.. I would reply to this thread, but I haven't the education or the words to form a good response. Thank you for putting it so well.

 

[p_p_man]

All completely true....but there are many other organizations the are littered with the same problem.

Just ask any aboriginal person in Canada who went to a private school, especially in Manitoba. Ask any of the parents who sent their kids to Government subidized daycare in Martensville. Just ask the minister of my Lutheran church why he continues to let a convicted sex offender chaparone the youth group activities.

Its a wide spread problem, that didn't start with, and won't end with the catholic church. I don't think its fair to single them out in this situation.

Pamela you're smokescreening.

The catholics are the obvious targets for investigation.

If there are others, and I have no doubt there are, then let the evidence start mounting.

With the catholic church it's already mounted...

If they've admitted the crime (which they have), don't you think they should do the time?

ppman

 

[sugardaddy]

The Church did not commit a crime, individuals did. Sick individuals perhaps, but not the organization itself. You don't shut a public school system down and charge the entire school system with murder or reckless homicide when students get shot. Prosecute this horrific crime like any other, but don't blow it out of proportion and start prosecuting the organization. That is not justice, that is anti-religion.

Sugardaddy

 

[Pamela]

The catholics are the obvious targets for investigation.

They aren't the only target though! That's my only point. I don't think our efforts should be confined to one particular organization.

If they've admitted the crime (which they have), don't you think they should do the time?

Of course! Nothing short of castration would make me happier! But this is a world wide problem in many organizations!

Pamela you're smokescreening

You see it as smoke screening...I see it as being realistic! In all fairness....I cannot single out one organization in this instance. The only one I can single out is the governments lack of support for the children! That's who you should single out. Otherwise this will continue in churches (catholic and others), schools, and daycare.

 

[p_p_man]

The Church did not commit a crime, individuals did. Sick individuals perhaps, but not the organization itself. You don't shut a public school system down and charge the entire school system with murder or reckless homicide when students get shot. Prosecute this horrific crime like any other, but don't blow it out of proportion and start prosecuting the organization. That is not justice, that is anti-religion.

Sugardaddy

But if there are that many pedos uncovered now there must be plenty of others in the church.

It seems so widespread and so well organised that a closure pending a criminal investigation seems to be the only option.

Unless parents are happy having their young children going to church not knowing whether he or she is the victim of sexual abuse or not.

ppman

 

[Ms_Lilith]

The Church did not commit a crime, individuals did. Sick individuals perhaps, but not the organization itself. You don't shut a public school system down and charge the entire school system with murder or reckless homicide when students get shot. Prosecute this horrific crime like any other, but don't blow it out of proportion and start prosecuting the organization. That is not justice, that is anti-religion.

Sugardaddy

Once again, thank you for addressing this like I could not.. my thoughts are so strewn over this, as I'm Catholic, and as I have only known wonderful priests in my lifetime.. it IS the individuals.. and even though it is priests that sometimes commit the crimes, you can't expect them to be perfect. They're human.

 

[freescorfr]

Once again, thank you for addressing this like I could not.. my thoughts are so strewn over this, as I'm Catholic, and as I have only known wonderful priests in my lifetime.. it IS the individuals.. and even though it is priests that sometimes commit the crimes, you can't expect them to be perfect. They're human.

I'm going to miss you Vixenshe if you're going to be a way for a while.

P_Pman you know you are being ingenuous here. Why don't you say that the Catholic Church in the UK has employed an independent Layperson, non-Catholic and female to investigate and police itself on this very issue? Every parish has to have a person responsible to monitor and investigate every allegation.

I can't see that the Church in the UK can do much more than that.

 

[RastaPope]

Speaking not as Pope for the moment, in all seriousness...


I personally wouldn't mind if they shut the Church down. It's a dirty organization that's caused as least as much harm as it has good in it's lifetime. Were it to close, I would throw a party and we could all watch Jem.

But that's not realistic, and never going to happen. What I have a HUGE problem with is hearing that one particular fuckwad priest is Boston was moved from parish to parish for about 15 years AFTER the church KNEW about his child-molesting ways. In fact, he molested in each new church, but still THE Church did nothing but pay his victims off and move him on.

These men should be ripped limb from limb in prison(where, coincidentally, we'll see how much they like being molested themselves, that is, if they even go, cause we all know the church in America alone has payed off over a BILLION fucking dollars for these dirty bastards crimes).

I like the idea of a privated watchdog group elected to each area to monitor the local priests.

But then, we'll never get the full truth from the Catholic Church.


Just like the government.

 

[Orlanth]

The thing that gets me is, that the Catholic Church goes around saying that's wrong or thi is wreong, or being gay is wrong. Yet most are pedophiles.

What the fuck is the world coming to?

 

[badasschick]

I went to a parochial high school, and we all (the students) knew something was shady going on within the ranks.

I have to admit, the school was progressive while under clergy administration. I mean we had a nun we called full metal habit who didn't rat out students if she found pot on them, but had this thing about going to the athletic fields to "burn" it. Also they fucked with the female student body's heads when they kept assigning hot young priests to our school.....I still remember the one with the French accent fondly. Oh yeah and the Bishop found out he had terminal cancer, held an assembly where he pretty much encouraged us to masturbate and celebrate our sexuality, and then gave us a day off from school because he said we deserved it. We all concluded that he was losing it by then.

During that time, students were responsible for morning announcements, and we had a silly show during homeroom. This was also the same time the allegations against the Boston priest on trial now first surfaced. We started a segment of the show in the vain of the Jerry's kids telethon. For about a week our "tote"board was for the number of priests accused of child molestation in the state of Massachusetts, the max got to 6 before it was shut down.

Strangely after that semester, our clergy administration was replaced by the laity gestapo in the name of restructuring. I'm not for concealing child abuse in the least bit, but the school was more fun when clergy was running the show.

Nah, the church doesn't need to be shut down

 

[p_p_man]

P_Pman you know you are being ingenuous here. Why don't you say that the Catholic Church in the UK has employed an independent Layperson, non-Catholic and female to investigate and police itself on this very issue?

I don't particularly think that is a good thing. We're all aware self-investigation has major flaws. The loyalty of the investigator may well lie with the ones who appoint them, which in most cases are the bodies they are meant to be investigating (or watchdogging if you prefer). As in this particular situation.

No. I think the catholic church will do what it can to keep any further cases coming to light which, without a full scale investigation by outside, independent, law authorities will probably mean that paedeophillia will continue.

Whether or not belief in the catholic church drops off or not I don't know, but if I belonged to an organisation where the sexual abuse of children is not only widespread, but is also covered up, I'd leave.

ppman

 

[Closet Desire]

I don't think...

...being Catholic is a crime.

However, the Catholic church has a long history of being centrally governed, very powerful and influential, very secretive and closed, and, as pointed out, prone to try to dictate to society what is right and what is wrong.

At one time we could have argued the same points about the Church of England but that is sort of a moot point now.

It would seem clear that the "power corrupts" philosophy is alive and well in the upper echelons of the Catholic church OR these allegations and revelations would have come to light much sooner. An outside investigation as well as a dismissal of the privacy so carefully guarded by the church is due.

Shut down the Catholic church? Not unless you're ready to close down the Baptists, the Jews, et. al. It isn't religion or religious beliefs that are under fire but a relatively small number of individuals and a system that provided them sanctuary.

And no, I'm not Catholic--I'm atheist.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: I don't think...

[BShut down the Catholic church? Not unless you're ready to close down the Baptists, the Jews, et. al. It isn't religion or religious beliefs that are under fire but a relatively small number of individuals and a system that provided them sanctuary.[/B]

Hi Closet Desire nice to see a post from you again.

What triggered off this thread was a news item I saw on Breakfast TV this morning about the same problem in Ireland (both the Reupublic and Ulster) which has been going on for 60 years and with the same cover up that's been taking place in the States.

My point is that it has been proved and admitted that paedeophilia is happening within the Catholic Church.

I haven't seen any proof or admission that it's taking place in any other religious organisations. That's not to say it doesn't but with the catholics its open and public knowledge.

That to me is grounds for a criminal investigation...

 

[freescorfr]

Re: Re: I don't think...

That to me is grounds for a criminal investigation...

Who would dispute that? Not even the Bishops, not a single English one anyway.

I was on a board of Governors meeting for a Catholic school, on which also sat a great figure in the Life movement. She was objecting to information about and recommendation to use condoms being given to the teenage pupils. I asked quite openly what advice she would give to a priest ( a priest from one of the local parishes was in prison at the time) who was having sex with a boy.
It may have been one of the things which cost me my job.

I feel as strongly about it as anyone: I feel strongly about our abuse of one another in any form. However, my religious beliefs, not very recognisably Catholic, inherently Christian with many leanings to the best in most major religions, but firmly rooted in my Catholic heritage are not likely to be shaken much by deviant priests in an institutional setting which demands sexual abstinence from its pastors.

 

[Weevil]

How about England? Can we close england down? They gave us colonialism, slavery and Robbie Williams, shouldn't they be stopped before they strike again?

 

[HotXBunz]

P_P_ Man, closing the church will not stop the problem. Priest are having sex.
It is not just pedophilia. The Pope just addressed the raping of Nigeran nuns (which I doubt is an isolated case) and priest have four times the rate of AIDS as the rest of the populous. Also, I have a friend who is right now engaged in an affair with a priest.

Due to the determination that priest are to be celibate they set themselves up for a situation where all of this must be hidden. In addition to the the scandal there is the problem of doctrine being violated and this shakes the church more than a few million in quiet money. We will never know the full extent of this problem.

I am pagan and have a problem with most religions but I see the need. Remember religion is the opiate of the masses and many people need this "drug" to see themselves through their circumstances.

Closing the institution will do nothing but cause the problem to go deeper underground. A criminal investigation would probably yield a few high and low level priest the church would be willing to sacrifice. Doing away with the celibacy rule will help more than anything. That will not happen anytime soon. The Pope has told his priest just yesterday they are to be "holy, perfect and celibate". As long as this continues the sexual problems and all of the covering up that has to follow will remain.

Your logic, as usual, is dead on but your reason needs to be extended to include the masses of people who depend on the instution. There is no cut and dried solution to this one.

 

[freescorfr]

How about England? Can we close england down? They gave us colonialism, slavery and Robbie Williams, shouldn't they be stopped before they strike again?

This is a bit off topic, Weevil, but did you see Mr. Brown? The Billy Connoly film, with Judy Dench in it? Do you think the Big Yin should have been screwing around with an English monarch or not? Wasn't it inter-racial sex? And if it is historically true is it maybe not the emotional factors in the lives of great leaders which have carved out history rather than political, religious or economic events?

What do you think, Weeve?

 

[Weevil]

This is a bit off topic, Weevil, but did you see Mr. Brown? The Billy Connoly film, with Judy Dench in it? Do you think the Big Yin should have been screwing around with an English monarch or not? Wasn't it inter-racial sex? And if it is historically true is it maybe not the emotional factors in the lives of great leaders which have carved out history rather than political, religious or economic events?

What do you think, Weeve?

I'd love to come back with something but I boycotted English films a long time ago.

 

[miles]

Yesiree, Bob

Go ahead and call the police and file a complaint. Maybe that will keep you busy.

 

[riff]

Hell no.

 

[serial]

yes. shut them down. they like to tell everyone else how to live and what to do, but then they don't follow the rules themselves....and their whole church is littered with corruption and paedophilia....as far as i can see, they don't follow the teachings of the god that they have their faith in.