should men write lesbian stories?

[killallhippies]

seriously, i've written a few and i'm currently writing another of what might be called lesbian stories even though i'd rather they be consider stories about bisexual girls fucking other bisexual girls, but what you gonna do? there's no such section on lit.

anyway, do you believe it's ok? is it even possible for a man regardless of their sexuality to capture the essence of sex with a woman from a woman's point of view?

or should i say is it likely for a man to be able to do that? i want to know. in my case i noticed that of the three stories i have posted so far the two that went to the incest category where it's possible that i got more reads by men had much better scores than the one that went to the lesbian section.

i wish i could say i know why, but the story that went to the lesbian section also recieved much less feedback than the other two. anyway, i'm just curious.

i originally posted this in glbt, but it is dead down there, so i'm going with you guys. don't disappoint me. i don't think i could handle it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think in theory anyone *should* write about anyone, provided it's done well. But then, I write about feline aliens and people who have been dead for twelve centuries, so they aren't very well going to write for themselves (or complain for that matter).

I think that the main issue in writing is accomplishing your goals in an even-handed fashion. Personally, I don't actually believe that all erotic fiction needs ninety pages of characterization, although you'd never know it to look at my own excessively verbose work. I don't mind if the characters aren't each a Jay Gatsby or Miranda Day; what I do tend to appreciate is some parity in portrayal. It gets tired when gay or bisexual characters are included solely for the titillation of a straight audience who wants the feeling of a bonanza of all that delectable flesh (male or female; I am across the board on this one). When the trope of alternative sexuality is used essentially just to mean "straight woman gets fantasy of watching husband in a submissive posture" or "straight man gets the fun of having two women at once," then it seems (to me) reductive and cheap. On the other hand, if you care what drives the characters and treat them as people, why not?

I will say that I see a lot more of the former than the latter. It is certainly easier to write the former. And I sway on the issue myself. But there's my tuppence.

Shanglan

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I've never fucked an alien, but I'm pretty sure I can write about it as if I did.
There are really no boundaries, I've read many lesbian stories written by men that were very good.

Besides, for some reason incest always scores big, makes me a little nervous.

 

[killallhippies]

I think in theory anyone *should* write about anyone, provided it's done well. But then, I write about feline aliens and people who have been dead for twelve centuries, so they aren't very well going to write for themselves (or complain for that matter).

I think that the main issue in writing is accomplishing your goals in an even-handed fashion. Personally, I don't actually believe that all erotic fiction needs ninety pages of characterization, although you'd never know it to look at my own excessively verbose work. I don't mind if the characters aren't each a Jay Gatsby or Miranda Day; what I do tend to appreciate is some parity in portrayal. It gets tired when gay or bisexual characters are included solely for the titillation of a straight audience who wants the feeling of a bonanza of all that delectable flesh (male or female; I am across the board on this one). When the trope of alternative sexuality is used essentially just to mean "straight woman gets fantasy of watching husband in a submissive posture" or "straight man gets the fun of having two women at once," then it seems (to me) reductive and cheap. On the other hand, if you care what drives the characters and treat them as people, why not?

I will say that I see a lot more of the former than the latter. It is certainly easier to write the former. And I sway on the issue myself. But there's my tuppence.

Shanglan

i don't know how you'd catagorize my work, but i did try to get at least a minimum of plot in them mainly because i can't stand when a story just introduces the characters and then throws them into bed with each other. i'm not going to claim they were art though. they weren't. they were intended as stroke stories, but i was hoping to please both men and women if at all possible which is why i allowed the one story to go into the lesbian section in the first place.

i was very disappointed when i only recieved two pieces of feedback on it after recieving a score of around 3.9 (i'd have to check for the exact score, but it's unimportant), but not so disappointed that i stopped writing the third part of the story which again went into the incest section and has a score just below 4.5.

but that's just me. i don't know. i'm just hoping i don't waste my time in posting a story to the lesbian section. i've thought about adding some straight sex just so i can throw it into erotic couplings, but that section is just so damned big i'm afraid it'll get lost.

 

[killallhippies]

Besides, for some reason incest always scores big, makes me a little nervous.

i've heard that before. i almost wish they weren't incest stories just so i could get a little bit better of gauge on my writing ability. the next one isn't. maybe i'll get a clearer picture this time around.

 

[Guest]

Kill, on Lit. it seems to me that “lesbian” as a category simply means f/f sex, vs. lesbian as identity, lifestyle or focus. I find that to be the case in most ‘lesbian’ porn I’ve seen, and personally do not find it arousing. I’ve rarely seen a lesbian scene that struck me as real, not even by good actresses (e.g., Deneuve and Sarandon).

For Lit. you can do an Ok job if you write good stroke, and if you’re male all you need do is write what you like to do to a woman’s body and have experienced vis-à-vis a woman’s reception to such, and it hardly matters who or what the “fucker” is.

But from my own experience of being a woman, having close dyke friends, and having done a good amount of ‘gender studies’ reading, I daresay a man cannot look at a woman the same way that a lesbian does. That leads me to think that the great dyke novel cannot be written by a man. A straight woman might do a better job, but it’s the core-dyke gaze on which I would rely more as a narrator. Of course I am talking ‘literary’ works here where characters are a few inches deeper than Lit. readers require.

Perdita

 

[killallhippies]

Kill, on Lit. it seems to me that “lesbian” as a category simply means f/f sex, vs. lesbian as identity, lifestyle or focus. I find that to be the case in most ‘lesbian’ porn I’ve seen, and personally do not find it arousing. I’ve rarely seen a lesbian scene that struck me as real, not even by good actresses (e.g., Deneuve and Sarandon).

For Lit. you can do an Ok job if you write good stroke, and if you’re male all you need do is write what you like to do to a woman’s body and have experienced vis-à-vis a woman’s reception to such, and it hardly matters who or what the “fucker” is.

But from my own experience of being a woman, having close dyke friends, and having done a good amount of ‘gender studies’ reading, I daresay a man cannot look at a woman the same way that a lesbian does. That leads me to think that the great dyke novel cannot be written by a man. A straight woman might do a better job, but it’s the core-dyke gaze on which I would rely more as a narrator. Of course I am talking ‘literary’ works here where characters are a few inches deeper than Lit. readers require.

Perdita

that makes sense. the little bit of "dyke" stories i've read mainly on other sites are an entirely different breed of cat. i actually have a hard time getting into them because they simply don't catch my sweet spot. they focus on things i would never think to focus on and ignore things that i find extremely intriguing. it's almost jarring.

 

[pop_54]

Lo *P* darling

I have to agree about the depth of feeling a guy can inject into a lesbian story... not having been on the receiving end of a woman's love and lust from another woman, I couldn't even scratch the surface... Like *P* I've discussed this genre with a serving bisexual lady I know quite well... and her descriptions of the depth of feeling between two loving ladies during a dyke hump make me shiver... I could never give her that depth of feeling in reality let alone write about it convincingly.

But having said this killa... you can come pretty damn close enough to please the average lit reader (male) and probably excite a number of ladies to boot... Many authors have been a success over the years writing from the opposite gender perspective, and with a little careful thought and research I'm sure you'll do well enough mate... Hell you've already convinced a fair few with your existing tales.


Umm.. I had sex with a woman once... does that make me a lesbian

 

[Guest]

Umm.. I had sex with a woman once... does that make me a lesbian

Pops, you can be my butch-dyke anytime, leave me to wearing the lipstick. Do you have sensitive nipples?

Perdita

 

[pop_54]

Pops, you can be my butch-dyke anytime, leave me to wearing the lipstick. Do you have sensitive nipples?

Perdita

Depends how hard you sink your teeth in darling

 

[killallhippies]

Lo *P* darling

I have to agree about the depth of feeling a guy can inject into a lesbian story... not having been on the receiving end of a woman's love and lust from another woman, I couldn't even scratch the surface... Like *P* I've discussed this genre with a serving bisexual lady I know quite well... and her descriptions of the depth of feeling between two loving ladies during a dyke hump make me shiver... I could never give her that depth of feeling in reality let alone write about it convincingly.

But having said this killa... you can come pretty damn close enough to please the average lit reader (male) and probably excite a number of ladies to boot... Many authors have been a success over the years writing from the opposite gender perspective, and with a little careful thought and research I'm sure you'll do well enough mate... Hell you've already convinced a fair few with your existing tales.


Umm.. I had sex with a woman once... does that make me a lesbian

groovy.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think the answer to your question is why shouldn't men write lesbian stories? Certainly there are aspects of sex between two women no man could hope to describe. At the same time, there are aspects of sex between two women I can never hope to describe. Some things go beyond the ability of words to convey.

On a visceral level, you can appeal to the male stroke crowd with practically any F/F scene you write, the gender of the author has negiligible impact on such stories. If you are writing something deeper, with a more introspective feel, you may perhaps loose some nuances in translation, but even I am guilty of that from time to time and I generally write from experience.

There is no reason why a man can not write lesbian themed stories. Just as there is no reason a woman can't write straight or even gay sex sotires from a amale perspective. It is highly doubtful you will be the next Pat Califa or Ann Douglas, but it is just as unlikely I will.

The storytellers art is not limited to just what the storyteller knows, it is bounded only by his/her imagination and ability. If you have the talent, experience can polish your work to a level where readers won't care about your gender, or even your identity. You will simply cease to be important as the story carries them away. When you reach that level you can write anything you please and make it seem real, no matter how flawed. I watch star trek occasionally and even though the "science" is terribly flawed, the world is so real it doesn't matter.

Your gender isn't the question, your talent and passion are. If you have them, the only limits you face are those you put on yourself.

-Colly

 

[Pure]

perd said
//the great dyke novel cannot be written by a man. //

can the great (straight) male novel be written by a dyke?

iyo.

just curious.

 

[Guest]

perd said //the great dyke novel cannot be written by a man. //

can the great (straight) male novel be written by a dyke?
iyo. just curious.

What is 'iyo'?

I made my statement only to make a point and support my whole post. I honestly don't know what 'the great dyke novel' might be so I cannot reply to your query. Perhaps there can be no such thing and therefore no such 'great straight male novel', though it seems to me if any exists it's probably by Hemingway and I won't read him.

Perdita

 

[killallhippies]

I think the answer to your question is why shouldn't men write lesbian stories? Certainly there are aspects of sex between two women no man could hope to describe. At the same time, there are aspects of sex between two women I can never hope to describe. Some things go beyond the ability of words to convey.

On a visceral level, you can appeal to the male stroke crowd with practically any F/F scene you write, the gender of the author has negiligible impact on such stories. If you are writing something deeper, with a more introspective feel, you may perhaps loose some nuances in translation, but even I am guilty of that from time to time and I generally write from experience.

There is no reason why a man can not write lesbian themed stories. Just as there is no reason a woman can't write straight or even gay sex sotires from a amale perspective. It is highly doubtful you will be the next Pat Califa or Ann Douglas, but it is just as unlikely I will.

The storytellers art is not limited to just what the storyteller knows, it is bounded only by his/her imagination and ability. If you have the talent, experience can polish your work to a level where readers won't care about your gender, or even your identity. You will simply cease to be important as the story carries them away. When you reach that level you can write anything you please and make it seem real, no matter how flawed. I watch star trek occasionally and even though the "science" is terribly flawed, the world is so real it doesn't matter.

Your gender isn't the question, your talent and passion are. If you have them, the only limits you face are those you put on yourself.

-Colly

thanks. i appreciate the advice. you make a good point. ann douglas is a name i haven't heard in awhile.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

thanks. i appreciate the advice. you make a good point. ann douglas is a name i haven't heard in awhile.

She sent me a feedback not long ago on my how to piece. She was, as she has always been to me, most gracious and complimentary.

-Colly

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

One lesbian will experience sex with another female differently than will another lesbian. The same is probably true for two gay males.

You DO know that one man might experience heterosexual sex differently from another man. The same is true that one woman will experience sex with a man differently than another woman.

Even if you spent hours questioning a lesbian, have her explain her every emotion, then after writing, editing so that it all precisely describes the way she experiences lesbian sex, you could still receive complaints from other lesbians complaining that your descriptions are all awry.

One lesbian is no more like every lesbian, than one heterosexual man is like every other heterosexual man.

That said, try to keep your true-life story from verging too far into Science Fiction.

 

[Lying Eyes]

It better be okay! But why not? There are women here who have written gay male stories.

The story in my signature while havng its share of problems (I know it needs some editing to fix it up) was still good enough to fool at least one woman who sent me feedback in appreciation of my mushy lesbian piece and then emailed me again shocked that I was a man.

 

[DarkDuchess]

I honestly think that it depends on the writer. Can you put yourself there and understand the character's motivations? I don't think that what really drives people in general is all that different. It goes to how people process what drives them and how they form a reaction to that stimuli. Women are as driven by sex as men are and the same can be said of emotion. But the differences come down to the outwardly displayed reaction and what has been formed in the individual's mind as what type of reaction is "okay" according to their morays and accepted by the society group that they identify themselves with. I write f/f m/f and even m/m. Some of the most stimulating writers of m/m are women, so I think it is possible for a man to write a great lesbian story and a lesbian or dyke could write the great american male novel. It all comes down to talent and research. I mean, after all, you wouldn't write about the three-tusked, one-balled wildebeest of the Swiss Alps without at least looking up their habitat would you? (Not comparing any group of people to this creature- just an extreme example) I could be way off here due to my personal experiences. (which are probably too many, lol) But, just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[killallhippies]

She sent me a feedback not long ago on my how to piece. She was, as she has always been to me, most gracious and complimentary.

-Colly

she's one of the first internet writers i learned to recognize by name when i found her stories in kristen's archives. she and candy kane got me hooked on erotic fiction on the net. i used to have her site in my favorites list, but it kept going down.

i just printed out your how to. i plan on reading it as soon as get offline. hopefully it can be of some help to me. i plan to have my story done before morning with any luck.

One lesbian will experience sex with another female differently than will another lesbian. The same is probably true for two gay males.

You DO know that one man might experience heterosexual sex differently from another man. The same is true that one woman will experience sex with a man differently than another woman.

Even if you spent hours questioning a lesbian, have her explain her every emotion, then after writing, editing so that it all precisely describes the way she experiences lesbian sex, you could still receive complaints from other lesbians complaining that your descriptions are all awry.

One lesbian is no more like every lesbian, than one heterosexual man is like every other heterosexual man.

That said, try to keep your true-life story from verging too far into Science Fiction.

well, duh. i've just read some pretty harsh criticism on the subject elsewhere. i wanted to see if that prejudice existed here. it does, but it seems pretty much justified.

and i'll try to stay away from science fiction. i'm sticking with the drugs, though.

 

[killallhippies]

It better be okay! But why not? There are women here who have written gay male stories.

The story in my signature while havng its share of problems (I know it needs some editing to fix it up) was still good enough to fool at least one woman who sent me feedback in appreciation of my mushy lesbian piece and then emailed me again shocked that I was a man.

lucky bastard. the great majority of good feedback i have recieved has been commenting on my use of drugs in my stories. some people seem to like that.

 

[Pure]

I agree with Virtual about diversity, and esp. like Colly's formulation:

Your gender isn't the question, your talent and passion are. If you have them, the only limits you face are those you put on yourself.

Well said.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I agree with Colly (and by the way, welcome back girl).

Speaking as one who only writes fictionalized stories, I think it comes to the writer's imagination. A boring mind will believe that all he/she can write is what he/she knows or has done. Thus, you get non-fiction stories, or fiction stories set in areas much like where the author lives with characters much like the author and their circle of friends or lovers.

Personally, I crave a challenge. Whenever I have to decipher how a mystical being or a human in a certain time period or someone of a different sex than I am would act, I find it fun and not as hard as everyone makes it.

What most people forget about people is that people have a lot of similarities. For instance, just because someone is a dyke it doesn't mean they are a man-hating vegetarian nor does it mean that they are a male fantasy granting closet bisexual. Chances are if you write someone fairly normal or better mildly neurotic or odd and imput a slight bit of societal expectations and what they think, they'll come out perfectly in place for the situation.

Anyway, overall I state with the maj. that a writer with a good imagination should be able to write anything no matter how far removed it is from their personal experiences.

 

[killallhippies]

Chances are if you write someone fairly normal or better mildly neurotic or odd and imput a slight bit of societal expectations and what they think, they'll come out perfectly in place for the situation.

that is what i try to do. slightly awkward characters have a better feel to them. i enjoying reading stories involving characters who are challenged by something and i try to challenge my characters as much as i can without making it too complicated. apparently i've suceeded reasonably well. hopefully i can continue to improve.

thanks people. you've all made some very valid points. you kinda took away my safety net excuse, but that's cool. i didn't really believe it anyway. if i did i wouldn't have bothered starting the story i'm working on right now.

now all i need to do is finish it and then find myself an editor.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Kill: hope you find something of use in the how to.

LUC: thanks hun, good to be back

*HUGS*

-Colly