Should authors avoid writing about a subject because a minority might emulate it?

[Hugh_Mungo]

Hi,

I'm a long-time reader, long-time writer, first-time publisher on Literotica. Sorry if you can't read my story yet. As of now it's still pending.

At least the first four chapters are. The fifth is written, but I pulled it shortly after submitting it because I wanted to consider some rewriting. It's not that I think the story could be better with a rewrite, it's that I have concerns about publishing it in the public eye. The fifth chapter contains a scene of borderline-consensual sex.

This topic has been discussed before, but I'd like to bring it up again. That thread might have gotten a little stale, and in any case may not have done much good because it was too polarized. I'd like to try again from the perspective of seeking advice for someone actually trying to make a decision about what to publish, rather than a debate between two sides who've already made up their minds. I'm not sure if this is the right category for this post, but I couldn't find another that fit better.

The arguments against publishing a work about a taboo subject can be put into three categories:

1) It is harmful to someone who seeks to view it
2) It is harmful to someone who views it without seeking to
3) It is harmful to someone who does not view it, indirectly through someone who does

Personally, I dismiss arguments 1 and 2. As for 1, an artistic work can only change someone in a way they voluntarily choose. While I will admit that people can voluntarily choose things that are harmful to them, I don't think it's common to voluntarily choose things that are very harmful. Some harm can be done, but it's minor and rare, so it's negligible. 2 is applicable in some contexts. We have laws as to what can appear on billboards, because people not seeking to view the billboards are exposed to them. However, for several reasons, people who find my story on Literotica are probably seeking at least something similar.

In summary, it does not bother me that there are people who find rape so distasteful that they don't even want to read about it. They don't have to read my story.

Argument 3 is hard to prove, yet also hard to refute, because indirect influences are hard to observe. What I am concerned about is the possibility that someone might be influenced by my story to commit a sex act with a non-consensual partner, i.e. rape. I am not too concerned if someone who reads my story is inspired to role-play the events or something similar with a person who agrees freely to participate. Certainly the percentage of readers who might commit rapes is small.

You could say I should take into account that I'm overly optimistic if I think many people will read my story. Out of the small number that read it, the small percentage that might have criminal inclinations amounts to 0. I think this argument fails because benefit also scales with the number of readers. If few people read my story, the benefit is also small, so the risk still might outweigh it. If a Hollywood movie entertains millions of people, but inspires one to commit a violent act, is the making of the movie regrettable? Perhaps not. You have to consider that the movie probably was only one of many influences. so you can't put the full responsibility on it, though I think it's fair to put some. Of course Hollywood movies don't go as far as some stories on Literotica. Is there some degree that's "too far" to the point the risk of inspiring violence is too high to accept?

I don't like the alternative either, which I see as being self-censoring my story. I think it damages the vision, makes it less "true", undermines the meaning of the story, and results in a half-assed bastardized chapter 5 which feels weak because the author doesn't really believe in it.

A little more detail about my story, while trying not to give away the ending. It is not the the NonConsent category. I put it in the NonHuman category. It could also be categorized as sci-fi or lesbian (contains both lesbian and straight sex). Only chapter 5 would be eligible for a few more categories, but it doesn't go there for no reason. It doesn't even go there that strongly. The character "gets more than she bargained for" to use the cliche. She was willing for sex, she just got it in a different form than she would have chosen. To be honest, given the choice between that form and no sex at all, she'd do it again.

For that reason, I felt okay about posting the story, whereas I'm just too reluctant to post some of my other stories that involve clearly-defined rape. But it occurs to me that to the mind of a mentally unstable person who might come across my story, while it probably wouldn't have as much of a negative effect as an out-and-out rape story, it might still have some lesser effect. They might not see the gray lines I see, how partially there was consent. They might just get off on the portion that is non-consensual.

Anyway, that was probably too long. Any advice? In particular facts might be helpful, such as sociological studies. It's difficult to choose the right study to draw conclusions from, though. Some seem somewhat applicable, but not perfectly. For example, they deal with the effects of pornography on violence, but not specifically pornography with violent content, or they deal with the effects on minors, who should not be reading Literotica. Absent facts, any plausible reasoning would be good to hear. Or if you can say nothing about whether I should rewrite my story, you could give advice about how to do it without ruining it.

 

[DOF]

Evening.
I'll confess upfront my argument or point of view may not be as well put together as yours. However, we live in an age where I can find more graphic and depraved content than any serious author would write about (in such detail) on google.

So for me personally it would be bordering on egotistical to assume I could write a rape, murder etc scene so powerfully that a criminal would emulate that. When he or she could be emulating the hundreds of enacted rape videos the internet provides or the violence depicted in Hollywood box office hits.
Furthermore some pretty risque stuff has already found its way into relatively mass publication. Poppy Z Brites book exquisite corpse was available in many book stores and amazon years ago. It tackled rape, mutilation, murder in graphic detail and excellent book it was too.
Thanks to the internet we are not longer a moderated society we have choices. With those choices some people will explore the basest desires and darkest aspects of the human condition. All power to that too. I do not believe that my work, your work or Poppy Z's is going to make any one into anything they were not before.

Clearly the exception in this is the issue of minors or people who are mentally disturbed. How ever when a minor seeks too emulate fiction or a mentally ill person goes undiagnosed long enough to be danger? I believe that is societies failure as a whole and if it was not one trigger it would have been another. Blaming any specific item of media be it digital or literature for a complete break down in a persons psyche is narrow minded. The problem existed before the influence was encountered, else we would all be out being deviants.

My feelings, take em, leave em and feel free to debate or discuss them.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

You rather confused me.

My take is pretty simple. A lot of forms of initial non-consent, BDSM and others are totally acceptable as long as the 'victim' finds pleasure in the experience and the scene is erotic.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How much wood coulda woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

My head hurts from reading post#1.

ANSWER: Who gives a fuck! Let the PC go and reclaim your effing life.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

The twinky defense how quaint!

Over and over through history you hear about how this or that will corrupted or cause those without common sense to do or in your word emulate what they see, read or hear. Bullshit!

First is was the twinky, then it was television and now your story! I have to laugh out loud. What you have written is in all likelihood nothing new. So if it is nothing new and radical how could it cause anyone to do anything to anyone?

And I don't have to read your story to know that it is nothing new.

A rapist does not go out or become a rapist from reading shit on a porno board. A rapist is already a rapist when he or she reads any of the stories on LIT dealing with non-consent. Your words, my words will make know difference in the attitude or actions of people that read them.

 

[Epmd607]

Correct, this argument already took place here: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=663237

I'd imagine the poster above, Hugh Mungo, is also LoveIsallYouNeed from the other thread. The argument didn't get stale, it never really got started. LoveIsallyouneed left kicking and whining after insulting everyone who disagreed with his hackneyed irrationality. I don't understand why this argument has to happen again.

 

[poppy_cock]

I put it to you that the real issue here is that you enjoyed writing the story and are somewhat disturbed that what you wrote created feelings of arousal in you.

I could be way off, of course.

But it seems that in starting this 'discussion' you're trying to assauge your own guilt.

Maybe you haven't read particularly widely here at Lit, I don't know. But there's something here for just about everyone (other than underage sex and bestiality). And as Zeb says, you don't become a rapist because you read about rape. I haven't become a lesbian because I once got turned on by reading a lesbian tale.

If you've got issues about what you've written - don't write it. Don't share it. No one's forcing you to submit your stuff here.

 

[cloudy]

Repeat after me: what we write is FICTION. It's not real, completely made up inside the writer's mind.

If some people are that lightly tethered to reality that they copy what they read in a fiction piece, then they have huge issues. None of their actions can be laid at the feet of the author. Period. You think Patricia Cornwall has nightmares about people copying the murders in her Kay Scarpetta novels? Fuck no. Or maybe Stephen King thinks people are going to live out the scenes from Misery? Yeah, I bet he worried all the way to the damn bank.

Again, it's fucking fiction. You have to have an inflated sense of self-importance to think that what you write is that damn irresistible, and people aren't going to sleep until they act out a scene from one of your stories from a free porn site.

 

[sr71plt]

You think Patricia Cornwall has nightmares about people copying the murders in her Kay Scarpetta novels?

Well, actually, she has said that she does. But then, she has a tortured mind anyway. (And quite a bit to answer for in her personal life.)

But I agree with your point.

 

[Hugh_Mungo]

Evening.
I'll confess upfront my argument or point of view may not be as well put together as yours. However, we live in an age where I can find more graphic and depraved content than any serious author would write about (in such detail) on google.

I think you have a point, although I'm not 100% convinced. I suppose if someone has already set out to search for any particular kind of depravity, they will find it. Adding one more to the pile would be the difference between hitting the broadside of a barn and hitting the broadside of a barn with one plank added.

I suppose the remaining problem is those who have not yet cultivated an interest. Of course I already pointed out that there probably aren't any readers on Literotica who are surprised to find graphic descriptions of sex. But I suppose there might be people who come looking simply for sex stories, but find after reading a variety that they prefer rape stories - a predilection they never knew they had before. Maybe I should repeat that I do believe at least 99% of people by this description are harmless.

My take is pretty simple. A lot of forms of initial non-consent, BDSM and others are totally acceptable as long as the 'victim' finds pleasure in the experience and the scene is erotic.

Thanks for your point of view. Is that just a description of your personal tastes, or do you believe it has a moral / ethical basis? I probably prefer non-consent scenes where the victim ends up enjoying it. If it's all just a story, though, there's no harm just the same if the fictional characters feel pain or distress. It might make it unpleasant for you to read, but fortunately you have the right not to read it. On the other hand, if there is a connection to the real world, we can't encourage non-consent behavior even in situations where the perpetrator believes the victim will end up liking it if forced to try it.

I put it to you that the real issue here is that you enjoyed writing the story and are somewhat disturbed that what you wrote created feelings of arousal in you.

I could be way off, of course.

In my opinion, respectfully, you are. No offense is taken, though. As I mentioned I am a long-time reader of Literotica and a long-time writer of erotic stories, just too shy to post until now. I have had years to come to terms with shame about writing stories, and I don't need to air it here.

If you've got issues about what you've written - don't write it. Don't share it. No one's forcing you to submit your stuff here.

No, rather, I had hoped to find encouragement to submit it from people who might want to read it. Of course I don't necessarily expect it. I imagine this site gets plenty of bad writing and you have no reason to believe mine is any different.

Repeat after me: what we write is FICTION. It's not real, completely made up inside the writer's mind.

If some people are that lightly tethered to reality that they copy what they read in a fiction piece, then they have huge issues. None of their actions can be laid at the feet of the author. Period. You think Patricia Cornwall has nightmares about people copying the murders in her Kay Scarpetta novels?

Your analogy is pretty relevant, but I wonder if the subject of sex differs at all from the subject of violence. It seems to me that sex has a seductive power. When a person perceives it, it causes them to desire it. If a person is sufficiently unhinged, they might not be able to contain that desire and might act on it despite the consequences. I'm not sure it's the same with violence. Certainly some people are entertained by stories of violence, but I'm not sure they desire to participate in any violence. I could be wrong. Maybe it's just that I personally have more lustful tendencies than violent ones (for which I consider myself fortunate), so I am seduced by sex but not by violence.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm recalling what Rod Serling said after one of his stories was emulated.

I am responsible to the public, not for the public.

 

[DOF]

On the other hand, if there is a connection to the real world, we can't encourage non-consent behavior even in situations where the perpetrator believes the victim will end up liking it if forced to try it.

Firstly depravity, I have been in relationships where rough sex, BDSM, and the fantasy of rape where mutually enjoyed and appreciated. Please don't make your morals mine.

However eloquently you put the argument you are still denying the fundamental point. I have been playing modern warfare 2 all week which is a realistic near simulation game of shooting and maiming people. I have no interest at all in taking up a gun in fact I find physical violence abhorrent despite having been in contact many times with it in the real world. Conversely I can still play a game, watch a movie or read books containing violence of all levels. Simply because I have a definitive divide between fantasy and reality.

Your bias shines through with words like predilection and having to come to terms with shame.
You need to realize that in my experience most people involved in a community like this do not experience any shame at all. Clearly we are all not like yourself in that regard.


I appreciate at this point I am troll baiting as I read the thread started by "LoveIsAllYouNeed" your writing style and pontification is identical. It's amusing though, largely as you did not open a discussion but a stage to push an agenda from. However the idea that fictitious writings illicit a real world desire is not a problem we all share. Your stalwart conviction that non consensual fantasy creates a real word preference to rape is scary. Unless of course you are so much better than the rest. It would not effect you but the plebeian mass is in danger.

In closing sexual violence and abuse are not sexually motivated crimes. This is proven and all but undeniable, beyond debate by layman like ourselves. If you ever cease pushing an agenda and approach the topic with an open mind you may discover what people actually find alluring about noncon fantasy. Sadly it wont be that we are all women haters, closet rapists or anarchist promoting the ideal of rape to the sheep who will read the work and run off to commit crimes.

 

[3113]

I'm recalling what Rod Serling said after one of his stories was emulated.

Which one?

 

[rgraham666]

Which one?

Doomsday Flight

According to The Anatomy of Motive, "…within a week of the broadcast. extortion threats were made against Eastern Airlines, Qantas, TWA, National, Pan-Am, and Northwest. Some of the airlines paid out money, but in no instances were bombs found."

 

[Hugh_Mungo]

Firstly depravity, I have been in relationships where rough sex, BDSM, and the fantasy of rape where mutually enjoyed and appreciated. Please don't make your morals mine.

I don't understand. Are you objecting to my use of the word "depravity"? I was merely using the same wording as you:

Evening.
I'll confess upfront my argument or point of view may not be as well put together as yours. However, we live in an age where I can find more graphic and depraved content than any serious author would write about (in such detail) on google.

I think you have a point, although I'm not 100% convinced. I suppose if someone has already set out to search for any particular kind of depravity, they will find it. Adding one more to the pile would be the difference between hitting the broadside of a barn and hitting the broadside of a barn with one plank added.

Your bias shines through with words like predilection

I didn't realize predilection was a biased word. For example you could describe someone as having a predilection for generosity.

and having to come to terms with shame.
You need to realize that in my experience most people involved in a community like this do not experience any shame at all. Clearly we are all not like yourself in that regard.

You should probably speak for yourself. I would be surprised if anyone raised in western society never had any shame about the subjects on this site. I am not talking about ongoing shame, but shame at one time. In any case, if you are all more resilient than me on that account, kudos to you. I am not ashamed of having felt shame. In any case I don't see what bearing it has on the discussion. If I am different from you, it does not discount my viewpoint.

I appreciate at this point I am troll baiting as I read the thread started by "LoveIsAllYouNeed" your writing style and pontification is identical.

I don't think I need to justify this kind of conspiracy theory with a counterargument. Perhaps you really do have such a problem with trolls on this site that you imagine them everywhere, even where they are not, and who can blame you?

It's amusing though, largely as you did not open a discussion but a stage to push an agenda from.

I thought I had been balanced. I have admitted when I agree with a point from someone on your side. If I have not said much more in support of that side since the initial post, it's because most responses have been for that side and have said it for me.

Your stalwart conviction that non consensual fantasy creates a real word preference to rape is scary. Unless of course you are so much better than the rest. It would not effect you but the plebeian mass is in danger.

I believe I have been clear on more than one occasion (not the least the title!) that I mean the danger is to a small minority, not the mass.

In closing sexual violence and abuse are not sexually motivated crimes. This is proven and all but undeniable, beyond debate by layman like ourselves.

That is a point worth stating. So I don't think they're should be much concern that non-violent pornography would lead to sexual violence. However, it doesn't seem impossible that violent pornography could lead to sexual violence. The sexual violence could be motivated by the violence in the story, not just the sex.

If you ever cease pushing an agenda and approach the topic with an open mind you may discover what people actually find alluring about noncon fantasy.

I don't think it will be that difficult for me to fathom, since I find it alluring. Maybe I stressed too much how the non-consent aspect of my recent post was rather mild, and maybe you missed where I alluded to having written stories with a heavy non-consent aspect.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

After reading this entire thread twice I have no idea what the hell this guy wants other than a pat on the fucking back for discovering he's gay.

 

[penandpaper]

Edward Abbey didn't worry writing The Monkey Wrench Gang, but ELF took his writing to heart. I doubt Gary Gygax would have thought a boy would stab another boy because of Dungeons and Dragons. And I'm sure the convict who imitated the Burt Reynold's movie (can't recall the name) was spurred on by the writer of that movie?

The answer is: you will always have criminals wanting something to blame. You will always have people trying to justify another's bad behavior. That's life. If you feel guilty then don't write it. But understand, if every writer did that, there would be very few fiction books around.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Edward Abbey didn't worry writing The Monkey Wrench Gang, but ELF took his writing to heart. I doubt Gary Gygax would have thought a boy would stab another boy because of Dungeons and Dragons. And I'm sure the convict who imitated the Burt Reynold's movie (can't recall the name) was spurred on by the writer of that movie?

The answer is: you will always have criminals wanting something to blame. You will always have people trying to justify another's bad behavior. That's life. If you feel guilty then don't write it. But understand, if every writer did that, there would be very few fiction books around.

And the non-fiction would be pretty boring.

 

[Stella_Omega]

... I haven't become a lesbian because I once got turned on by reading a lesbian tale...

Damn it, must try harder! </threadjack>

 

[Hugh_Mungo]

Found some possibility relevant studies. Unfortunately you usually can't get the full text without paying. But here's as much as I could find for free.

Pornography and rape: theory and practice? Evidence from crime data in four countries where pornography is easily available.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2032762

Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html

 

[DOF]

After reading this entire thread twice I have no idea what the hell this guy wants other than a pat on the fucking back for discovering he's gay.

You just became my hero for the day for at least five minutes of the day.


Dear Hugh I am sure this debate brings you much pleasure both as a way to flex your skills as a master debater and perhaps some form of therapy. Due to the unfortunate circumstance of having a life myself, I shall be bowing out though.
Keep it weird man

 

[Epmd607]

Most sexual molestation happens between a girl and an older male relative in the home. Perhaps when journalists ink such reports they should stop and think, "Will a man read this piece and then get the idea to rape his niece? Am I complicit in child molestation for my ability to describe an event and deliver it to the masses?"

Oh, what scholarship, what sound argument!

Why focus on fiction? Its been shown that most people don't differentiate(emotively) between fiction and non-fiction if the story is interesting enough. Your mom feels real horror when that corny soap actor cheats on his wife with the vixen. Why put our moms through such things? We need to cancel all soap operas!

 

[jomar]

Welcome to the AH HM!

And lighten up, it lowers the blood pressure.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Twenty years ago mental health people believed that molestation and rape were conditioned responses to masturbation fantasies; if you read a dirty book or saw a dirty movie you were doomed to act-out. The cure was to make you read books or watch movies of Mike & Carol Brady doing it.

 

[driphoney]

For some reason that gives me this mental image of about 20 serial rapists tripping over each other around Hollywood as they all stalk Florence Henderson!