Shootings in VA

[wolfie69]

I was listening to the news, on my way to work, this morning. A man named Rodger Gay asked directions to a gay bar in VA, told the person he wanted to shoot some gays.... then went to the bar, ordered a drink and pulled out a pistol and started shooting. He killed one man!

1) Do you think the person he asked directions from, did not take him seriously?

2) Why the escalation of hate crimes towards gays?

3) Is this a good indicator that some type of gun control is needed?

I guess this one hit me hard, made me sick to my stomach for a while. I am completly heterosexual but I share a last name with this guy..........( no relation )

 

[Siren]

MAKES ME SICK TOO

 

[Sweetbitch]

1
Probably not. Sad but true. I know that even if I was slightly suspicious of what the guy actually meant, I wouldn't think all that much about it. Well, I might, but only on a broader basis. Like why the hell is it that gays, whether the guy is joking or not, have become the number one target for violence? I mean, is what gay people do really all that wrong?

2
I think the answer to this is just that a lot of people have a lot of anger in them. There will always be a minority group that will suffer because of it. And now that most of these people have the bible *clears throat* to back it up, it just gives them a good reason to do it.

3
I'm not actually from the USA (although I was over there for a year), so I don't know a whole lot about guns or the laws that are in place. What I do know is that no matter what law are in place for guns, there will always be shit going on because of them. Over here in the UK, the only guns I have ever seen are on TV. I don't know one person that owns a gun. I wouldn't know the first thing about loading them or shooting them, and I'm sure the vast majority of the UK population wouldn't know either. But the shit still happens. On a smaller scale of course, but it's there. It's awful to say, but even though tighter laws could make a big difference - people will still suffer in one way or another.

 

[Siren]

It is different in the UK

 

[Skitten]

Yes that guy may have to take some responsibility, but the main one is the one who did the shooting. The guy who gave him direction didn't necessarily think he was serious.

There are many hate crimes here and yes more are aimed towards the gay's, no it is not right and there should be more done, but I don't agree with better gun control. Because the ones doing the shootings will find one way or another to do what they intend to do.

Hate crimes no matter whom it is is wrong and there needs to be more done on that end than on gun control.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Here in the UK we don't have access to gun's and most people would look at you as some kind freak if you even said you wanted one.
We do still have hate crimes though not on the scale you seem to suffer in the USA , I live five minute's walk from the Stephen Lawrence memorial to a teenage black boy of the same name who was killed by five white youth's just because eh was black, the five escaped justice becuse of a bungled police investigation.
As to gun control I'v never been able to understand why the world's most powerful nation need's to have armed citzen's I mean if your being robbed call a cop if your being invaded call the army, that's what we do in the UK and no one claim's the UK is paradise but but it's as good a place to live as any where.
I know that this will probably upset some but I have to tell it as I see it.

 

[CW]

What is being reported tonight on the local news is that the person who gave directions only did so in a general sort've way,,, and since Roanoke is smack dab in the middle of the USA's conservative bible belt,,, the person giving directions may have thought good riddence ( though that certianly is not reported on the news),,,

The reason that Mr. Gay gave the police was that he was tired of being refered to as homosexual,,, damit, my name means happy, not homo!! Sheesh,,, talk about needing a life and some sense of sanity !!

And, yes, if we needed another indicator of gun control, this would be one,,, as is road rage, as is the fact that a dear friend of mine was shot dead at point blank range in a parking lot for $18.00 and car keys, as are any number of other examples that you can think of,,,

But, if we gun control ourselves too strictly,,, then the criminal element will win totally and soon inherit this country,,, nope, not pro NRA at all,,, just anti criminal.

As Skitten says,,, we need to address the hate crimes more than gun control.

 

[Sonora]

I heard something on tv some time ago (a year or so). In Japan they have VERY strict gun control. Can't own a gun or a sword. If you have one that is an antique or historic in some way it has to be disabled. For a gun the barrel has to be solid. For a sword, you can only have the handle. You can be in a gun club, but you must use their guns and turn them back in when you've finished shooting. For whatever (recent) year they were giving stats for there were 23 murders in Japan. TWENTYTHREE!! How many people are in Japan?? Pick any sizable city in the US and there will be more than 23 murders/year. Seems to me that there should be some way we could control things a little better than we do.

 

[Expertise]

Aparently this guy was a moron, "Joe Trail Map" I mean. But not a total moron.

Some guy drives by me on the street and asks that, i'm gonna' give him directions. However, the directions are going to be to the nearest police department or RCMP detachment, places that i'm going to call and warn as soon as he moves along. Not the local gay bar.

 

[Purple Haze]

Deep seated hatred for gays is bolstered by your local house of worship. Have you seen the literature passed out in some churches?

Comparisons to rapists and pedophiles have been the tactic of choice in this disturbing war against the "Gay Agenda." Everyone from Ellen Degeneres to Walt Disney is to blame. These "christian" groups claim to love everybody and are concerned for these sick people. Just how they would like to rid society of these dangerous people remains a guarded secret. Belief in the theory that gays are made through peer pressure shows the general intelligence of these hateful church-goers. Meanwhile, anyone with a gun in this country (there are too many) feels justified to do god's work, after all wasn't this country founded on christian beliefs? Not.

 

[Weird Harold]

As to gun control I'v never been able to understand why the world's most powerful nation need's to have armed citzen's I mean if your being robbed call a cop if your being invaded call the army, that's what we do in the UK and no one claim's the UK is paradise but but it's as good a place to live as any where.

Just something for you to think about here:

In the UK, about the furthest anyone is from their nearest neighbor is about 15 minutes on foot. The nearest constable is not much further away time wise.

In the US, there are places where one's nearest neighbor is an hour away by car, and the nearest peace officer is over two hours away.

Even in the cities, it takes 15 minutes to get assistance from the authorities, assuming they have time for something so simple as an intruder into a private residence.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Ok Harold I'll concede that there are geographical concern's that are not the same as the UK but we have place's that are hour's away from help, but what I'm trying to say is that the American people don't seem the trust those authority's that are supposed to be looking out for them.

And as for gun control all I can say is that it work's hear, as to if it would work for you I don't know but could it be any worse than what you have now.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Absolute, not doubt, this kinda thing blows rats....

And I'm a Virginian too. Double blown rats!

I could go on and on regarding gun control but I basically have two looks at it - an idealistic one and a reality based one.

And regards to reality - I don't believe that what we read, see and hear in "the news" and I work this profession, is necessarily conveyed as real (yes it happened but)in mathematical context. Which for lack of an absolute definition of reality - is pretty real, right? Math, nearly pure logic.

Micro scooters for instance, just recently, big ta-do, all the kids crashing - broken wrists, ankles and heads - oh my god - let's legislate!!! True, in Jersey this coming voting season.

Same with Allar, same with "training shoes" when I was a kid. "Oh my god Bob our son's going to be duck footed!" Same with lots of things - all taken out of the context (or never placed within the context) of numbers, of math, or reality.

This shooting - this type of shooting - though exemplified by the press on a few recent occasions - is an extreme mathematical rarity.

But they don't tell you that. Why would they? Selling it is a business. Magicians don't want people to know how they do it. Trade secrets.

So, knowing that, knowing what I feel about news and what we read and how real it is.

I think guns, weapons are the worst thing on this planet. I wish all of them could, without explanation, with maybe divine intervention - vanish. No doubt, the world would be a much better place for it. It's that obvious to me.

But, but, but...... sorry, fantasy.

Legislation you say. Legislation? Make all guns illegal to own? Have gun drops for tax bonuses? Life imprisonment for all who carry in commission of a felony? (I think some states do that now.) Nope - won't happen. It won't completely, like it should be, thoroughly, happen. Why? The math. (Not to mention money, which in a way is math - but I vector.) It's the reality of it all.

And until the reality of the math changes rather drastically - things will pretty much stay the same and gun issues will remain what they really are - political rhetoric. Just something to talk about in order to make people think you are the person that should be elected.

The reality of the math must change - so drastically - believe me - you don't want to go there. It's ugly.

The current reality is unfortunately - that guns are a part of our culture - hell they are a part of our historical heritage - they're deeply imbedded in who we are as Americans - again, unfortunately. And to undo all that deep shit (and shit is what it is) would take big nasty math. Lot's of deaths. Lot's of kids dying.

Of course, everyone could just "get smart" - realize all this shit and take charge and make it happen - but everyone's too divided on the issue. Won't happen.

Unless the reality of the math changes.

Triple blown rats.

 

[Siren]

Good points Sparky, but.....

 

[wolfie69]

The reason that Mr. Gay gave the police was that he was tired of being refered to as homosexual,,, damit, my name means happy, not homo!!
Sheesh,,, talk about needing a life and some sense of sanity !!

Well I guess I must look to mean or something!! No one, in my adult life has ever asked me if I was homosexual because my last name is Gay.

I think this guy was just looking to shoot someone.... who knows except him.....

life is just getting too sad!

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Yeah Siren I do.....

think everyone should take the issue of guns with a high degree of responsibility. Like I said, we don't have to wait for the reality of the math. We can speak out - it's America.

Maybe I didn't fully understand your point, sorry...

But one must be careful - just because some drunken wacko is spewing some vile shit - doesn't mean we should lynch him - that's not responsible - that's almost witch hunting.

We can't let ourselves become paranoid on this or anything else - paranoia is of course not responsibility.

 

[Siren]

Very true Sparky...

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Well.........

If I were in that bar, the night this guy came in and started spewing shit - I don't know - I wasn't there - maybe I'd have told someone who could do something about it. Maybe. But let me tell you - this guy was drunk and I been there, done that and seen and heard it all - including a guy getting shot in front of me. I've been threatened with murder by a drunk at least 4 or 4 times - hey Jar Heads you know? But to the best of my limited knowledge none of these guys had ever pulled the trigger on a fellow human. It's just drunk talk. Not pretty, not nice, not acceptable - but throwing them in jail - the ones I came in contact with - I don't think so. They just needed a cold shower and a bath.

This guy of course took things a bad step further - but who could know. My bet is - I saw video of the establishment this guy first drank at - that the patrons were relatively oblivious to this guys rant. Face down you know. That kind of place.

 

[Weird Harold]

And as for gun control all I can say is that it work's hear, as to if it would work for you I don't know but could it be any worse than what you have now.

Yes it could be worse. I'm not all that sure gun control works all that well there either. What works there, is not the gun control, but the penalties for using a gun in a crime.

But, this is NOT a gun control thread, it's about how far responsibility for a crime can be assessed.

If someone came up to me and asked where to find someone to shoot, I'd tell him to go to hell now instead of taking someone with him. (Probably I'd just tell him "haven't a clue" and let him go find someone else to ask.)

If I thought there was a real chance of him taking action, I'd call the cops and report the conversation; If I had anything informative enought to get their attention that is. If the person was a complete stranger, I'd probably let it slide.

 

[Ezzy]

Yes but...

In Japan they have VERY strict gun control...For whatever (recent) year they were giving stats for there were 23 murders in Japan. TWENTYTHREE!! How many people are in Japan?? Pick any sizable city in the US and there will be more than 23 murders/year. Seems to me that there should be some way we could control things a little better than we do.

True but this is also a cultural thing,in the west (especially where guns are available) if things go wrong the tendency is to turn our aggression outwards,and so kill others.In Japan they turn inwards,and kill themselves.

I am sure if you looked at the statistics for suicides they would be much higher in Japan than the States.

EZ http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/sleep.gif

[Edited by Ezzy on 09-26-2000 at 09:40 PM]