Shoot Them After The 5th Book.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I recently experienced an epiphany: Most writers shoot their load with their first five books. Every book beyond five is uninspired, boring, and a regurgitaion of what came before.

To test my theory I checked the bibliographies of several Nobel Laureates and popular commercial writers. It's true. The first 5 books are the classics.

Ayn Rand, Stephen King, Tom Clancy, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald, Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, John LeCarre et al were done by the 5th book, although Stephen King got as far as book #10 before he went limp.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Joyce Carol Oates is an excellent writer of serious fiction. The problem is, she's logorrheic and can't stop, and she now has like 30 novels out and probably five or 6 hundred short stories, and you face the shelves of her books in the library and just say, "Oh, forget it!" and walk away.

Artistic inflation is a serious problem.

 

[neonlyte]

Maybe King had a longer pencil...

 

[champagne1982]

Joyce Carol Oates is an excellent writer of serious fiction. The problem is, she's logorrheic and can't stop, and she now has like 30 novels out and probably five or 6 hundred short stories, and you face the shelves of her books in the library and just say, "Oh, forget it!" and walk away.

Artistic inflation is a serious problem.

Good way to treat logorrhia would be to put a pen in her hand, it would plug up the word spew.

 

[sweetness6280]

Joyce Carol Oates is an excellent writer of serious fiction. The problem is, she's logorrheic and can't stop, and she now has like 30 novels out and probably five or 6 hundred short stories, and you face the shelves of her books in the library and just say, "Oh, forget it!" and walk away.

Artistic inflation is a serious problem.

She is probably my favorite author, but I agree.

 

[sr71plt]

Ayn Rand, Stephen King, Tom Clancy, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald, Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, John LeCarre et al were done by the 5th book, although Stephen King got as far as book #10 before he went limp.

I disagree on LeCarre. (And I'm sure that a long list could be compiled to show the falsity of this assertion--Graham Greene springs to my mind). James Michener as well--but he primarily escaped by finding a different locale to write about each time.

I've heard John Grisham muse much the same thing, though. He's tried to fight it by writing books outside of the realm that made him famous--but hasn't been particularly successful at it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

There are always exceptions to every stereotype...I mean, two-headed things really exist.

 

[AchtungNight]

I wonder if there are any authors like this on Lit.

 

[sr71plt]

There are always exceptions to every stereotype...I mean, two-headed things really exist.

Yeah, and I think you were perhaps speaking to the exception rather than the rule. But, who knows? And why bring it up in the first place? (And, I thought you had declared never, ever to post to me again. Got cha. )

 

[R. Richard]

One thing that has sort of been ignored in the discussion so far is earning a living. Professional authors write for money. The need for money doesn't go away after the fifth or even tenth novel.

 

[wildehafer]

One thing that has sort of been ignored in the discussion so far is earning a living. Professional authors write for money. The need for money doesn't go away after the fifth or even tenth novel.

Agreed, and people are obviously still buying the stuff. If they didn't due to the OP's observation they wouldn't get published anymore.

Perhaps people don't like change too much and are comfortable with the author and the way they write, even if it just a regurgitation or the same old shit in a brand new cover.

Why do people watch gazillions of episodes of any one of a dozen sit-coms or Jerry Springer? They all eventually crank out the same old trash, but people still watch it.

Peoples love affairs with an author's works or TV shows probably outlast their own relationships with their partners these days!

 

[jomar]

I wonder if there are any authors like this on Lit.

Nice setup for the 'wad' joke.

 

[trysail]

I think LeCarré continues to be a gifted wordsmith and storyteller. While many pigeon-hole him as a writer of Cold War spy thrillers, in reality his works are studies of individuals struggling within and against bureaucrats and human organizations.

I've been captivated by LeCarré for decades and collect his works. A writer whose profound comprehension of the fear, uncertainty and doubt that inhabit human organizations and with the skill to scribe a line like the following is going to get second, third, fourth and fifth chances from me:

"Enemies, I do not fear— but friends, I fear greatly."​

LeCarré's newest, A Most Wanted Man, is teed up and ready to go as soon as I finish the Buffett biography.

 

[sr71plt]

One thing that has sort of been ignored in the discussion so far is earning a living. Professional authors write for money. The need for money doesn't go away after the fifth or even tenth novel.

In the case of two I've worked with: John Grisham signed a contract for seven legal thrillers. He lost interest in those between the fourth and fifth--but he has the contract. And those are the books people want to read, and his fan base doesn't encourage (or buy) deviation. In the case of Tom Clancy, the first two weren't even entirely his (Jim Sutton of the Naval Institute Press entirely rewrote Hunt; the second one was from a war game and Larry Bond structured and wrote most of that one). But it went to Tom Clancy's head that it was all about him. So, now that it is all him, his books are going downhill on a long curve, but his fan base doesn't seem to notice.

But the suggestion that everyone breaks at the fifth book? Rubbish, I think.

 

[sr71plt]

Nice setup for the 'wad' joke.

Yes, I'm completely nonplussed that JBJ hasn't come back with something about "half-assed."

 

[Guest]

Yes, I'm completely nonplussed that JBJ hasn't come back with something about "half-assed."

I have an extra plus or two I can lend you at very reasonable terms.

Or, I can trade for any extra gruntle you're not using.

 

[AvoidingRealWork]

Nice setup for the 'wad' joke.

My wife actually had a professor use the expression in lecture a couple of weeks ago.

"Did he just say what I think he said?"

 

[sr71plt]

I have an extra plus or two I can lend you at very reasonable terms.

Or, I can trade for any extra gruntle you're not using.

Send your avatar model to me as well and we're in business.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

TRYSAIL

Gotta disagree about LeCarre. After he wrote SMILEY'S PEOPLE he had nothing more to say. His first books are compelling and the rest bore me.

 

[trysail]

TRYSAIL

Gotta disagree about LeCarre. After he wrote SMILEY'S PEOPLE he had nothing more to say. His first books are compelling and the rest bore me.

Try The Night Manager.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

TRYSAIL

I'll give it a try. Thanks

 

[Shwenn]

I ruinded Tolstoy for myself because of this.

I like to get to know an author before reading his most challenging piece.

I read Crime and Punishment in preparation for the Brothers Karamazov. V in preparation for Gravity's Rainbow. The Name of the Rose in preparation for Foucault's Pendulum.

I read The Death of Ivan Ilych in preparation for War and Peace and it just made me decide to give War and Peace a miss. Anytime I tell this to a fan of Tolstoy, they say, "Don't go by The Death of Ivan Ilych. Tolstoy started sucking ass towards the end of his life."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SHWENN

WAR & PEACE is pretty good after 200 pages of introduction.

I bought a copy of the Russian film. I think it runs almost 8-10 hours on 4 DVDs. The technical quality of the film is bad...the characters alternate speaking Russian, French, and English in almost every scene. It startles you when they switch language, then do it again. The special effects suck.

But the director had use of the Soviet army to stage battle scenes, and this is pretty stunning. They built a whole city and burned it to the ground. And every detail is a perfect replica of the original. Plus the acting is terrific, and the story is well revealed, plus the personalities of the characters. Pierre is a nerdy bumbler & bastard son ridiculed by everyone, Natasha is a child-woman who finally matures at the end, and Andre is the perfect human we all want to be.

The film makes the book a lot more interesting, especially in the beginning.

I agree that WAR & PEACE is THE STANDARD for great literature. But those first 200 pages are a bitch.

 

[Shwenn]

I agree that WAR & PEACE is THE STANDARD for great literature. But those first 200 pages are a bitch.

That is your opinion, not mine.

Like I wrote, I haven't read it.

After Ival Illych, I can't imagine War and Peace holding a candle to The Brothers Karamzov. That novel was hard core.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SHWENN

I believe its the general opinion of anyone who knows shit about writing. It's not the perfect book, but it was the FIRST book to assemble the structure of great literature, and influenced a generation of first-rate authors who adopted the form Tolstoy created and improved on it.