Shitty Life = Great Fiction?

[Aurora Black]

Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to Colly's memory or the AH itself while its members are still in mourning.

The idea of this thread came to me while I was discussing the lives of certain authors (Alice Walker and Maya Angelou, if anyone's curious) with a fellow Lit member, and I began to notice a pattern of unhappy events and great strife connected with several well-known writers:

Maya Angelou was raped at a young age by her mother's boyfriend and was in a severely abusive marriage before getting a divorce.

Alice Walker was "accidentally" shot in the eye by her brother as a child and was left partially blind.

Edith Wharton suffered through years of an unhappy marriage before she finally got a divorce.

Oscar Wilde was gay during the freaking Victorian Age, for God's sake. Thrown in prison for it, too.

Poe was a raging drunk. So was Fitzgerald.

Hemingway not only suffered from severe depression, but he survived two plane crashes while on safari in Africa, was burned badly in a bushfire accident just a month after said crashes, and he shot himself just a few years later.

All this makes me wonder: Is it necessary to lead a tragic life in order to create such successful works that stand the test of time?

 

[arienette]

I don't think it's necessary to lead a tragic life in order to write great fiction. A lot of story tellers don't necessarily rely on their upbringing or their lives to write these stories that have endured the test of time. Sure, I think it would help - you can always use ammo like tragic events in your life to write about, but like I said, I really don't think it's necessary - unless you're writing a self help book.

 

[minsue]

Is it necessary to lead a tragic life in order to create such successful works that stand the test of time?

Nope.

 

[impressive]

Nope.

What she said.

However, if you think it'd improve your work, feel free to be miserable.

 

[Softouch911]

When Nathaniel Hawthorne died, his son was executor of his estate. It was his first chance to read his dad's writing. In a letter to the attorney, he said "My father couldn't have written these things (House of the Seven Gables and Rappaccinni's Daughter were the particlar items he was discussing). My father was such a happy man!"

I saw an interview with John Updike yesterday in which he was talking about his own life in fairly contented terms. Same thing last year when I heard Joyce Carol Oates in a lecture.

But misery sure makes better legends and headlines.

ST

 

[Aurora Black]

True, people love to hear juicy details of a writer or artist having a miserable existance instead of being a normal person who pens the occasional dark tale.

 

[Antfarmer77]

Writing can be cathartic

 

[Aurora Black]

Writing can be cathartic

Yes, it can.

 

[Guest]

My favourite author (and one of my guilty pleasures) is the late, great Richard Laymon. He had a "normal" happy life, and he wrote some of the most dark and twisted stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. I've read a few interviews with him, and people time and again asked him where he got such "deranged" stuff from. He replied simply, "I have a fertile imagination."

Some people end up in a mess after they've made it, and made their money. Stephen King didn't go through his drugs and alcohol "mess" until after he'd published Carrie (and others, I think).

So, it could be asked... in some cases stated, is it cause, or effect?

 

[arienette]

My favourite author (and one of my guilty pleasures) is the late, great Richard Laymon. He had a "normal" happy life, and he wrote some of the most dark and twisted stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. I've read a few interviews with him, and people time and again asked him where he got such "deranged" stuff from. He replied simply, "I have a fertile imagination."

Some people end up in a mess after they've made it, and made their money. Stephen King didn't go through his drugs and alcohol "mess" until after he'd published Carrie (and others, I think).

So, it could be asked... in some cases stated, is it cause, or effect?

That's a great point about Stephen King, I hadn't even thought of him. But then again, I try not to.

 

[Aurora Black]

My favourite author (and one of my guilty pleasures) is the late, great Richard Laymon. He had a "normal" happy life, and he wrote some of the most dark and twisted stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. I've read a few interviews with him, and people time and again asked him where he got such "deranged" stuff from. He replied simply, "I have a fertile imagination."

Some people end up in a mess after they've made it, and made their money. Stephen King didn't go through his drugs and alcohol "mess" until after he'd published Carrie (and others, I think).

So, it could be asked... in some cases stated, is it cause, or effect?

I remember from King's memoir On Writing that he unconsciously based his character Jack Torrence from The Shining on himself at his alcoholic worst, and he basically wrote Cujo while coked out of his gourd.

I believe that too much money can corrupt a person, and I often think about how this relates to celebrities. Like the rest of us, they were once at the bottom of the food chain and were "normal," but then they were discovered and went from $8 an hour at a 9 to 5 job to making millions of dollars per movie. And as a result of the fame, fortune and constant surveillance they turn into complete assholes who are miserable as they sleep on their jewel-encrusted satin sheets.

Sorry, I know I'm rambling. It's just that the cause and effect issue, right now, sounds a lot like the "Chicken or Egg" debate to me.

 

[matriarch]

My favourite author (and one of my guilty pleasures) is the late, great Richard Laymon. He had a "normal" happy life, and he wrote some of the most dark and twisted stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. I've read a few interviews with him, and people time and again asked him where he got such "deranged" stuff from. He replied simply, "I have a fertile imagination."

Some people end up in a mess after they've made it, and made their money. Stephen King didn't go through his drugs and alcohol "mess" until after he'd published Carrie (and others, I think).

So, it could be asked... in some cases stated, is it cause, or effect?

Indeed. Let us never understimate the power of imagination. It's been my staple inspiration.

As for misery and pain.......I wrote poetry - dire and self-serving - when I was depressed. It was appalling stuff. I wrote my best stuff when I was happy.

I don't see a necessary correlation. For that to work, you'd have to check up on the mental state of every single successful author. A handful just doesn't cut it.

 

[rgraham666]

Seems to have worked for me so far.

 

[CharleyH]

Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to Colly's memory or the AH itself while its members are still in mourning.

The idea of this thread came to me while I was discussing the lives of certain authors (Alice Walker and Maya Angelou, if anyone's curious) with a fellow Lit member, and I began to notice a pattern of unhappy events and great strife connected with several well-known writers:

Maya Angelou was raped at a young age by her mother's boyfriend and was in a severely abusive marriage before getting a divorce.

Alice Walker was "accidentally" shot in the eye by her brother as a child and was left partially blind.

Edith Wharton suffered through years of an unhappy marriage before she finally got a divorce.

Oscar Wilde was gay during the freaking Victorian Age, for God's sake. Thrown in prison for it, too.

Poe was a raging drunk. So was Fitzgerald.

Hemingway not only suffered from severe depression, but he survived two plane crashes while on safari in Africa, was burned badly in a bushfire accident just a month after said crashes, and he shot himself just a few years later.

All this makes me wonder: Is it necessary to lead a tragic life in order to create such successful works that stand the test of time?

Never. It's fallacy that great artists and writers lead tragic and depressed lives. There are just as many great ones who lead lives of experience and optimism.

 

[Guest]

I remember from King's memoir On Writing that he unconsciously based his character Jack Torrence from The Shining on himself at his alcoholic worst, and he basically wrote Cujo while coked out of his gourd.

I believe that too much money can corrupt a person, and I often think about how this relates to celebrities. Like the rest of us, they were once at the bottom of the food chain and were "normal," but then they were discovered and went from $8 an hour at a 9 to 5 job to making millions of dollars per movie. And as a result of the fame, fortune and constant surveillance they turn into complete assholes who are miserable as they sleep on their jewel-encrusted satin sheets.

Sorry, I know I'm rambling. It's just that the cause and effect issue, right now, sounds a lot like the "Chicken or Egg" debate to me.

The chicken and the egg thing is easy... The egg came first. The bird that laid it was not quite a chicken (it was the chicken's evolutionary predecessor). The egg it laid was slightly mutated, and was born a chicken - as we know it. That's evolution for ya! So, the egg came first.

And yeah, King couldn't even remember writing Cujo, lol.

As for the cause and effect thingy... I was merely pointing out that, prior to making wedges of cash, some of those who were alcoholics, etc, probably didn't lead "shitty lives" in the lead up to writing their first, second, third (you get the idea) novel, but were more than likely reasonably happy-go-lucky people.

Similar to what Mat and Charley said, above, it's most likely that for every one successful author who was/is famous/infamous for troubled lives, there's probably ten more who led/lead happy, centred lives.

I'm not a "successful author" (yet, haha), but I reckon some of my stuff is pretty good, and I tend to be a happy person, and all of it was written while in a happy frame of mind. Certainly have no shit going on in my life.

I always "talk" more when I've had a beer, or four, so you've caught me in a chatty mood.

 

[Aurora Black]

I appreciate your positive outlook, guys. I write my most powerful fiction when I'm somewhat down, and perhaps that's why I'm leaning toward the view that one must live terribly to write well.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

However, if you think it'd improve your work, feel free to be miserable.

I already am but it doesn't seem to be helping my work much.

 

[3113]

The thing is, few lives are without some sort of tragedy. I mean, people do get sick, die, accidents happen, etc. Some people have tough childhoods but easy adulthoods, other have easy childhoods but miserable adulthoods. You mention Alice Walker's blinding in childhood, but leave out that she was valevictorian of her high school, earned a scholarships to college, etc. Was this a tragic life?

Edith Wharton may have been unhappy in her marriage, but she had a wealthy, spoilt childhood as a New York aristocrat. And surely her marriage wasn't unhappy in the beginning. And after leaving her husband, she found love and happiness and independence in Paris. Was this a tragic life?

Oscar Wilde ended tragically, but prior to that tragedy, he lived his life exactly as he wanted to live it--in an outrageous manner that few others would have been permitted. Hard as it was to be a homosexual in those days, a man of his statue could do so quietly. He was a celebrated author before he made that tragic mistake--going to court over a slander suit. That's what landed him in jail and ended his career. But prior to that, WHILE he was writing his famous plays, poems, novel...was his life tragic? He was celebrated, had awesome friends, was the center of a circle of artists and intellectuals that dominated Europe.

And though there was some tragedy in Fitzgerald's childhood--and arguably some heartbreak in his teens and college years (he didn't get to be on the football team, didn't succeed at college, didn't get the first girl he fell in love with, didn't get to be on the front lines during the war....), he did write one of his best novels, The Great Gatsby, before the real and greatest tragedy of his life came to pass--his wife's mental illness and his own alcoholism.

So how MUCH of a life has to be "tragic" for it to be a tragic life? And how much tragedy does there have to be for a great work of art?

In the end, I keep coming back to William Shakespeare. His life had its ups and downs--we know he lost his son, but we also know he had a great sense of humor and his friends thought him a very gentle and fun-loving man. There were tragedies and hardships in his life, surely, but it hardly sounds "tragic." He did what he loved most in life--acted on the stage, wrote and directed plays, earned good money for it, was a success, was popular and well liked....

It seems to me that it's not a tragic life that leads anyone to create masterpieces, no matter the artform. You need to have some talent first, that hunger and ability and need to write. From there, it's life, all of life, your own and others, that helps you create the art. Tragedies may capture our attention when we think of artists and their art, but few artists, tragic as part, or even a majority of their lives may have been, have lived only tragic lives. Maybe, in the end, it's as much those moments of joy in life as tragedy that helped them create lasting works of art.

 

[CharleyH]

The chicken and the egg thing is easy... The egg came first. The bird that laid it was not quite a chicken (it was the chicken's evolutionary predecessor). The egg it laid was slightly mutated, and was born a chicken - as we know it. That's evolution for ya! So, the egg came first.

And yeah, King couldn't even remember writing Cujo, lol.

As for the cause and effect thingy... I was merely pointing out that, prior to making wedges of cash, some of those who were alcoholics, etc, probably didn't lead "shitty lives" in the lead up to writing their first, second, third (you get the idea) novel, but were more than likely reasonably happy-go-lucky people.

Similar to what Mat and Charley said, above, it's most likely that for every one successful author who was/is famous/infamous for troubled lives, there's probably ten more who led/lead happy, centred lives.

I'm not a "successful author" (yet, haha), but I reckon some of my stuff is pretty good, and I tend to be a happy person, and all of it was written while in a happy frame of mind. Certainly have no shit going on in my life.

I always "talk" more when I've had a beer, or four, so you've caught me in a chatty mood.

Oh Lou Lou, you are always smutty - erm - I mean CHATTY - YA THAT'S IT!

 

[rgraham666]

It's imagination and emotions that make for great literature.

And those things can turn on you.

 

[Guest]

The thing is, few lives are without some sort of tragedy. I mean, people do get sick, die, accidents happen, etc. Some people have tough childhoods but easy adulthoods, other have easy childhoods but miserable adulthoods. You mention Alice Walker's blinding in childhood, but leave out that she was valevictorian of her high school, earned a scholarships to college, etc. Was this a tragic life?

Edith Wharton may have been unhappy in her marriage, but she had a wealthy, spoilt childhood as a New York aristocrat. And surely her marriage wasn't unhappy in the beginning. And after leaving her husband, she found love and happiness and independence in Paris. Was this a tragic life?

Oscar Wilde ended tragically, but prior to that tragedy, he lived his life exactly as he wanted to live it--in an outrageous manner that few others would have been permitted. Hard as it was to be a homosexual in those days, a man of his statue could do so quietly. He was a celebrated author before he made that tragic mistake--going to court over a slander suit. That's what landed him in jail and ended his career. But prior to that, WHILE he was writing his famous plays, poems, novel...was his life tragic? He was celebrated, had awesome friends, was the center of a circle of artists and intellectuals that dominated Europe.

And though there was some tragedy in Fitzgerald's childhood--and arguably some heartbreak in his teens and college years (he didn't get to be on the football team, didn't succeed at college, didn't get the first girl he fell in love with, didn't get to be on the front lines during the war....), he did write one of his best novels, The Great Gatsby, before the real and greatest tragedy of his life came to pass--his wife's mental illness and his own alcoholism.

So how MUCH of a life has to be "tragic" for it to be a tragic life? And how much tragedy does there have to be for a great work of art?

In the end, I keep coming back to William Shakespeare. His life had its ups and downs--we know he lost his son, but we also know he had a great sense of humor and his friends thought him a very gentle and fun-loving man. There were tragedies and hardships in his life, surely, but it hardly sounds "tragic." He did what he loved most in life--acted on the stage, wrote and directed plays, earned good money for it, was a success, was popular and well liked....

It seems to me that it's not a tragic life that leads anyone to create masterpieces, no matter the artform. You need to have some talent first, that hunger and ability and need to write. From there, it's life, all of life, your own and others, that helps you create the art. Tragedies may capture our attention when we think of artists and their art, but few artists, tragic as part, or even a majority of their lives may have been, have lived only tragic lives. Maybe, in the end, it's as much those moments of joy in life as tragedy that helped them create lasting works of art.

Brilliant post. Well said!

 

[Aurora Black]

Le sigh, I'm in over my head once again.

Perhaps I did focus too much on the negative aspects of the authors' lives and overlooked their happy times and achievements, but I couldn't ignore the similarities that I saw and I wondered if the bad stuff had any bearings on their bodies of work.

 

[Guest]

Le sigh, I'm in over my head once again.

Perhaps I did focus too much on the negative aspects of the authors' lives and overlooked their happy times and achievements, but I couldn't ignore the similarities that I saw and I wondered if the bad stuff had any bearings on their bodies of work.

As you said yourself, maybe it's where your own head is at sometimes and because you identified with the premise yourself slightly, that you thought maybe others would as well.

Also, I think Softouch summed it up very well earlier in the thread: "But misery sure makes better legends and headlines."

The majority of the time, only the bad stuff makes the news.

 

[neonlyte]

It is easy to cast a shadow of despair as an Artist - I'm talking about today's generation and Artist in the broadest possible sense - it is a precarious existence for the majority. Most never achieve recognition and even the successful ones swoop through the emotions, success requires repetition (in most cases), repeating success can be more difficult than finding it once. I wonder how many First and Only novels there are?

I don't know any Artist that doesn't struggle to birth their work, it demands a certain selfishness, a focus to achieve. It is also a rarity, in my experience, for an Artist not to suffer some form of depression after a work is hung, exhibited or published. The reception is never what you tell yourself it might be, there is a feeling of anticlimax, for many; and the knowledge that the cycle must now start over.

On the plus side, Artists are generally a happy, relatively carefree bunch - socially. I would generalise and say they tend to be more promiscuous that 9-5 office types, certainly more experimental, in all things. And either don't give a rat's fuck about anything or care passionately and argumentatively about everything - just to make sure they are not being overlooked.

But it's rude to generalise when there are so many perfect examples surrounding us. Anyone want to start?

 

[Munachi]

this reminds me of a book i read as a teenager - about a girl whose family had to flee from nazi germany. the main character, who i think is about 7 or 8 years old, and wants to become a writer, says in the book she hopes this will count as a difficult childhood, because, after all, all famous writers had difficult childhoods, so she assumes you have to have one to become a writer.