Sexy writing for men vs. women?

[ImperfectAnimals]

Hello everyone. In case you recognize me from my last forum post I'm about 6k words into my first short story, which I hope to post soon

I had my boyfriend look over what I've written so far and he said, "It's very obvious you're a woman." He didn't mean it in a bad way, but apparently it was very easy to notice. I asked why and he said it's because I "focus a lot on the relationships," and I replied saying that dialogue and characters' thoughts/feelings make stories hotter, at least for me. So naturally I asked what would make a story hot for a man to read -- after all, I'm writing an M/M story and I know that category is read by lots of actual gay men, and I want them to like it too. He said something like, "Men will have something random that will get them off but they don't know what it is yet. Try and include lots of little details that someone might find hot." I'm confused as to how this is different from just pandering, and also as to...what this means in general?

Is there a discernible difference between the way men and women write in the same genre? What do men find hot in a story other than just its contents? Me confuse. Pls help. Bleh.

 

[NotWise]

Is there a discernible difference between the way men and women write in the same genre? What do men find hot in a story other than just its contents? Me confuse. Pls help. Bleh.

I'm a guy, and I write mostly about relationships. That's 1 datum.

 

[windar]

Hello everyone. In case you recognize me from my last forum post I'm about 6k words into my first short story, which I hope to post soon

I had my boyfriend look over what I've written so far and he said, "It's very obvious you're a woman." He didn't mean it in a bad way, but apparently it was very easy to notice. I asked why and he said it's because I "focus a lot on the relationships," and I replied saying that dialogue and characters' thoughts/feelings make stories hotter, at least for me. So naturally I asked what would make a story hot for a man to read -- after all, I'm writing an M/M story and I know that category is read by lots of actual gay men, and I want them to like it too. He said something like, "Men will have something random that will get them off but they don't know what it is yet. Try and include lots of little details that someone might find hot." I'm confused as to how this is different from just pandering, and also as to...what this means in general?

Is there a discernible difference between the way men and women write in the same genre? What do men find hot in a story other than just its contents? Me confuse. Pls help. Bleh.

I frequently write with a female co-author (I'm male). We are not in a relationship and in fact have never met IRL. I honestly can't say that the differences in our styles are gender-based more than just being two individuals. I think a reader would probably be hard pressed to guess which chapters were written by a male and which by a female, though they could probably guess that there are two authors involved.

 

[TadOverdon]

I had my boyfriend look over what I've written so far and he said, "It's very obvious you're a woman."

I think that your boyfriend's evaluation is inescapably biased by the fact that he knows that you're a woman.

I guess there's no point in rhetorically asking if we'll ever get beyond this. There is no female/male dichotomy of viewpoint, attitude, modes of thinking etc. There is an endless spectrum of personality and temperament ranging across all the genders.

 

[LAHomedog]

I believe this is a men are from Mars, women are from Venus thing. I write relationships and love stories, typically, but men are visual creatures and the sexual stimulation or the sexual triggers are different.

When I write a female character, I always base her on a woman that I know. You have to get into your character's head and think like they do. Are you basing your men on guys you know?

Here's a cliche:

A guy in first person, I look at her walk through the bar. That ass! The way she sashayed in those tight jeans. She turned towards the bartender. Wow! She was hot. I decided then and there, I had to have her.

A woman in first person: He walked over to me at the bar and was the first guy who didn't use some kind of hackneyed pickup line. "Hi," he said. "I'm John. I saw that you were alone and I thought I'd come over and introduce myself. I hope that is okay," And he smiled. I looked at him. " Good looking man, what a nice smile," I thought. "Yes, it is. I'm Jill, nice to meet you. So, what do you do?"

Not perfect, but sort of in the neighborhood.

 

[SimonDoom]

When you talk about the differences between "men and women," you're talking about mean differences, not absolute differences. If you poll a thousand men about what they like in erotica, and a thousand women about what they like in erotica, you'll get a lot of overlap, but you'll probably get some mean (average) differences as well. Men (IMO) on average or more visual, physical, and fetishy. Women are more focused on feelings and relationships. But there are plenty of men that are focused on feelings and relationships, and plenty of women who want it physical and fetishy.

I'm a man. I like both. I like the physical and fetishy and visual. But if as an author you can write in a skilled way about how people feel in a relationship, you can win me over that way too.

So, I guess what I'd recommend is, write the way you want to write, and there will be plenty of men as well as women who will probably like seeing erotica written that way.

 

[46n2]

I think that your boyfriend's evaluation is inescapably biased by the fact that he knows that you're a woman.

I guess there's no point in rhetorically asking if we'll ever get beyond this. There is no female/male dichotomy of viewpoint, attitude, modes of thinking etc. There is an endless spectrum of personality and temperament ranging across all the genders.

I have written some shit that people to this day still believe a woman wrote.

I have written some shit that I declared from a male point of view - that women to this day still cannot believe that a man wrote.

This gives me pleasure.

It can be done. go deep in there and BE it. No greater pleasure. Be. Beyond. Yourself.

But to your point - yeah, the boyfriend is fuckin' biased. Duh. You cannot read off of that. He already KNOWS that fact. So put it out there. Run amuck. Find out beyond the boyfriend.

No one else chooses who you are - as a writer that is your most valuable freedom of choice. And it's why we write.

Show boyfriend what he cannot believe and then make him eat that pussy for hours on end in apology. Do it.

 

[KeithD]

Hmmm. This is about an M/M story, right? I don't see that taken on board in the responses you're getting.

There isn't one GM type of focus, so the characters in the specific story would need to be observed. One type of GM guy will focus on emotions and is there a mutual "vibe" here? And this might not be a sex story at all--or it may be a slow-developing one preceded with a focus of "is this someone I want to hang out with/open to?" Another one will focus on hookup, starting with thoughts and actions focusing on does he arouse? Top or bottom? Is he interested? Some will think relationship possibility off the top; some will think "quick hookup and move on"; and some will start with one of these and find what they really want is the other. Narcissism can be heavier in GM than in hetero; many will be totally self-absorbed.

Depends on the story and the specific characters in the story. Quite often the conflict of the story is guys wanting something different/ready to invest something different than the other. But then, that holds for hetero stories too. However, what I see you asking specifically about in the OP is a gay guy's reading of an M/M story you are writing, not how a straight guy is relating to his girlfriend.

 

[AlinaX]

Ultimately, write so that it's erotic for you.

I've experimented with writing stuff that I was uncomfortable with or didn't think could be erotic, but found ways to approach the subjects in a way that I did find erotic.

Don't get distracted into adding stuff 'just because'.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm smart enough to not enter a conversation that is going to involve mansplaining and generalizations about gender, so I'm just going to put some Jiffy pop on the stove and check back later.

 

[KeithD]

I'm smart enough to not enter a conversation that is going to involve mansplaining and generalizations about gender, so I'm just going to put some Jiffy pop on the stove and check back later.

Except that you did enter the conversation.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The OP's boyfriend sounds like a straight guy wanting to avoid any implication that he might ever be moved by m/m content, more than anything else.

I've read a lot of m/m content here and on fanfic sites and often you can tell whether the author is male or female (most fanfic authors are female for some reason), but also whether the author has experienced or at least watched that kind of sex.

Plenty of m/m stories on Lit which I would bet are written by men but who have never had sex with a man themselves. They tend to focus on another man taking command and the volume of cum. The ones mostly on fanfic sites which have two adult male characters getting unrealistically sappy and sounding like teenage girls are probably written by young women who don't know any older queer men.

I've posted a series and a standalone sequel in GM on Lit - the series is partly from a woman's POV so didn't get many readers (bemoans lack of Filthy Bisexual category, though if there were one it would just get filled with unrealistic fantasies), but people who did read it liked it (all chapters have red Hs). The other story I tried to write more of a stroke piece that would appeal to more men, taking inspiration from some of KeithD's travelogue style stories. I included more characterisation because that's how I liked it, but got some nice feedback from male readers as well as ones I suspect are women.

 

[AlinaX]

Except that you did enter the conversation.

Oh, go get a room...

 

[windar]

I'm smart enough to not enter a conversation that is going to involve mansplaining and generalizations about gender, so I'm just going to put some Jiffy pop on the stove and check back later.

Jiffy pop? Meh...Get a Whirly Pop and some real popcorn. 100x better.

 

[TadOverdon]

The OP's boyfriend sounds like a straight guy wanting to avoid any implication that he might ever be moved by m/m content, more than anything else.

Well, it wasn't my intention to impune the boyfriend's perceptions or motives, just to point out the obvious fact that he's biased by what he already knows.

Every human being is biased by what we already know.

I guess "bias" is thrown around as a criticism so frequently now and is so often treated as a synonym for "prejudice" that it might seem a judgmental word.

 

[windar]

This study concludes: "Overall, the results of this study warrant the view that the writing of men and women is far more similar one to the other than different."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40171293

The authors are one man and one woman, judging by the names Donald and Kathryn...

 

[BiscuitHammer]

I'd heard the phrase 'women won't watch porn, but will read the Hell out of it' bandied around for years. I wasn't sure about that, based on the fact that many of my friends who were women watched some of the raunchiest porn available. And my general impression is that the readership here at Lit tends to be male.

A general sampling of my readers/followers on here, assuming they're being honest about their gender, revealed a surprisingly (to me) high number of women reading my stuff, with the reason being roughly 60/40 male/female.

Granted, my method was hardly professional or scientific, I merely messaged and asked politely. But that IS a higher proportion of women than I expected.

And many of my stories do focus on emotional connection and relationships as much as straight sex, so if the contention is that women want those things in their porn, then that MIGHT explain it.

RL, women (and I suppose men) must deal with my incredibly bent sense of humour, with roughly fifty percent of them staying away because of it, and the other have laughing hysterically and saying they love me for it. And since my sense is humour permeates my stories, even the grimdark ones on occasion, then I guess the women who read my stuff don't mind it.

I remember receiving a PM from someone who said they were a woman and that they loved the sex in my stories but could do with less of the emotional and relationship stuff. If so, it just proves that men and women aren't a monolith.

Another result that surprised me when I asked my readers about my stories was how many women were into the I/T stuff. Then again, my I/T stories tend to lean heavily on emotional and romantic connection (the Alexaverse wouldn't exist without that angle). Based on my questions, the story least read by women is The Great Khan, but it's a historical drama full of great sweeping battles, graphic violence and the horror of war. The stories that resonated best were the Alexaverse and My Naughty Neighbour, both of which are very firmly based on intense emotion and forlorn love, especially the latter.

Oddly my series that feature kinky sex tend to resonate with women. Stories that feature anal, watersports, or decidedly rough sex seem to appeal, for instance.

I've received one PM where a reader asked if I was a girl pretending to be a guy as a writer, but I think that's a fluke. I think it's pretty damned obvious I'm a guy based on my writing, but hey, what do I know? I'm actually a self-aware cloud of transient nodes of thought. That's how I should identify.

*looks at reply*

Clearly I shouldn't reply to posts while listening to 'Ramble On' by Zeppelin...

 

[KeithD]

Oh, go get a room...

Why? It was sort of idiotic. Not only was it joining the conversation, but it also provided an opinion on the conversation.

 

[AlinaX]

Why? It was sort of idiotic. Not only was it joining the conversation, but it also provided an opinion on the conversation.

I meant both of you.

 

[AllenWoody]

Your topic title is "writing FOR men vs. women", but most of the conversation here has focused on how men write versus women. Not exactly the same thing.

I'm a male, my editor/friend is a woman. She doesn't generally find fault with my writing, but every so often she'll praise a particular passage or phrase with feedback like "Oh yeah, if you want to keep the interest of your female readers, do more of this". This is usually when I describe male anatomy or presence with a little more detail or care.

I guess, visual male that I am, that I tend to spend more time describing the women in my stories. I work to even that out, but it can be difficult.

 

[KeithD]

Your topic title is "writing FOR men vs. women", but most of the conversation here has focused on how men write versus women. Not exactly the same thing.

The OP specifically was asking about writing for gay men in an M/M story, which isn't exactly the same thing as where most of the conversation has gone.

 

[yowser]

Imperfect, you have gotten a range of responses from thoughtful folks here, hopefully of some help. Of course, we don't have a lot to go on without seeing a sample of your efforts. Here are a couple ideas:

Tad is correct in pointing out your boyfriend's perspective, of course he knows you and likely cannot read your work without having your identity (and gender) in the front of his mind. That said, there may be some validity to his critique. (I did enjoy the comment "Men will have something random that will get them off but they don't know what it is yet." Fascinating.) So I would take the 'grain of salt' approach with his comments. AlinaX is also astute in advising not to go overboard in changing your approach' just because.'

I would be tempted to find a good handful of well received MM stories here. Don't read them to adopt what the writers have done, but pay attention to the perceived 'male' aspects of the tales.

Simon is also accurate on the 'mean' differences between male and female, there is no reason for you not to take an authentic human approach, and let your own reactions and perceptions guide your tale. One potential difference lies in the arousal cycle between sexes: males can do the 'zero to sixty' time very quickly sometimes (with highly visible results,) with the slightest of arousal signals, while the female arousal cycle often is longer and (perhaps) more circuitous. Awareness of this difference may help you in telling your story.

As has been suggested, and done explicitly in many other forum posts, it is best if you tell your own story. Submitting will get you feedback, and just by trying this you gain some exploration points.

Another possible help is getting another writer to take a read and offer specific suggestions addressing your dilemma.

 

[yukonnights]

Hello everyone. In case you recognize me from my last forum post I'm about 6k words into my first short story, which I hope to post soon …

… Is there a discernible difference between the way men and women write in the same genre? What do men find hot in a story other than just its contents? Me confuse. Pls help. Bleh.

FWIW, I write quite a lot to the bi/gay male readers. Inner feelings and emotions are what I focus on. Everyone has different tastes/preferences on the ratio of 'physical descriptions vs. emotions'. I would say my ratio would be 75% emotions and 25% descriptions. IMO, the drama is in the doubt, the reluctance, the emotions — with these all leading up to the physical moments and during the physical moments — which should include snippets of detail here and there.

The difference between a character 'telling and showing' me what they're experiencing and me reading a 'description' of what's happening is miles apart on the immersion scale.

If the characters are not having some thoughts /emotions prior to the big act, and during it, IMO there is no story.

I'm also in the camp of those who don't see a lot of difference/difficulty in writing from both gender's perspective. There are sensitive males and insensitive males — there are sensitive females and insensitive females. That's the beauty in revealing abundant inner thoughts, feelings and emotions.

 

[Bramblethorn]

When you talk about the differences between "men and women," you're talking about mean differences, not absolute differences. If you poll a thousand men about what they like in erotica, and a thousand women about what they like in erotica, you'll get a lot of overlap, but you'll probably get some mean (average) differences as well. Men (IMO) on average or more visual, physical, and fetishy. Women are more focused on feelings and relationships. But there are plenty of men that are focused on feelings and relationships, and plenty of women who want it physical and fetishy.

Yeah, this. It's like asking "are men taller than women?" As a generalisation, yes, the average man is taller than the average woman. But there are plenty of tall women and short men in the world.

 

[jehoram]

Your topic title is "writing FOR men vs. women", but most of the conversation here has focused on how men write versus women. Not exactly the same thing.

I'm a male, my editor/friend is a woman. She doesn't generally find fault with my writing, but every so often she'll praise a particular passage or phrase with feedback like "Oh yeah, if you want to keep the interest of your female readers, do more of this". This is usually when I describe male anatomy or presence with a little more detail or care.

I guess, visual male that I am, that I tend to spend more time describing the women in my stories. I work to even that out, but it can be difficult.

As many of you know, I edit for Athalia and she edits for me. I've written stuff that I thought was pretty good, but she found only mildly erotic. She's written stuff that she thought was hot, but which I found sort of meh. But neither of us supposes that we are typical of our sexes. Overall, I think she's "hit the mark" more often than I have, but then her stories are more character-driven than mine are.

And she's told me from time to time that while she appreciates the comments she gets from men, it's really the women that she writes for. Actually, she once said, she writes for herself, to provide stories that she as a woman would want to read and jill off to.

Me, I'm a whore. I write for everybody.