Sex with Minors

[genderbender]

I'll open pandora's box. I tried this topic at the Story Feedback board and although 22 people took a peek, not one commented. Too hot to handle, or boring, I'll leave to you.

I'm not a pedophile but I take great joy in depicting youngster's discovering sex. I also find especially exciting the temptations that exist between parent and child. As we all know, teens are very active sexually well before the advanced age of 18. You did it in the back seat of someone's car when you were sixteen, didn't you? And when incest exists it seldom arises later in life when the parent is dottering and the child is a no-longer-innocent adult. So why the taboo against this subject? We're all adults here, right? It's not like someone is going to try to seduce a forty year old man just because he shares fantasies about sex with teens under the age of 18? Where's the underage person who could be corrupted by this topic?

Perhaps I'm making light of potential legal concerns of the site's operators, but when do words become illegal? It's behavior that's problematic, not the fantasies in which an adult indulges.

Any thoughts on this matter? As my "logo" states, I'm still a virgin...an over 18 year old virgin, of course, but a virgin nonetheless. I invite guidance from those on this site with more experience than I have. Thanks.

 

[LittleP]

I agree. I wrote a really good story (yeah, that's some self-advertising), but due to the fact it's about innocence, I don't know if it will be published here. It's pending now, and I'm hoping that the writing will overcome the content.

I think the issue at the site is that they don't want to open the door for pedophilia. I'm hoping, though, that if a story is good enough, and not about the rape of some 9-year old, an exception would be made.

I've noticed that some of the volunteer editors say that no topic bothers them, while others expressly say that they don't want to edit stories involving children. This makes me wonder if the site's operators aren't a little lenient.
After all, they allow 'nonconsent' stories on here. It's an interesting taboo.

I'll be really interested in what others have to say on this one.

 

[Madame Pandora]

gender,

Get out of my box

I think a great deal of the appeal on this topic is in depicting the burgeoning of an innocent into sexual maturity.

Certainly, other than survival, there is no greater instinct in human nature than the protection of children (overall - I'm not saying this is true of EVERYONE), which is what makes this topic tricky and what continues to make puberty difficult for countless teens. The transformation from minor to adult in a sexual context is just one of those appealing stages in life. That is why there is so much passion involved and why the lines often get blurry.

On average, a young girl's body begins to physically prepare itself for mating by age 12 (I think boys are 13, but I'd have to look that up and it's late). Despite nature's urging, in our modern society, there is still a very fragile process to go through before any juvenile is really "adult."

Still, there is a huge distinction between discussing the first, normal sexual experiences of a teenager and "child abuse." But, in the US especially, we have this affinity for nice clear lines in the sand, and that line on this issue is the number 18. Is an older man fantasizing about a 17 year old a pervert? No, not to me. Anymore than an older woman looking at a 17 year old boy. As we get older, we are still drawn to youth in its supple beauty and often its charming awkwardness.

But, it must also be remembered that raging hormones cause a great deal of emotional vulnerability. And, as so many people in society tend to take advantage of people in vulnerable positions - especially in the case of children - I suppose that as a society we try to err on the side of safety.

Just MHO

MP

 

[Weird Harold]

I've noticed that some of the volunteer editors say that no topic bothers them, while others expressly say that they don't want to edit stories involving children. This makes me wonder if the site's operators aren't a little lenient.

Many of the editors, myself included, edit for anyone and not just for people who post here.

Laurel is NOT lenient about underage sex, bestiality, or plagiarism. Every so often, an underage character slipps past her, but it WILL get the story pulled if someone brings it to her attention.

As MP said, Americans tend to like a "line in the sand" and Laurel has drawn that line here at age 18 because there are some prosecutors who consider words about underage children to be the same as pictures of underaged children. I don't know of any successful prosecutions for stories of underage sex, but that doesn't keep some prudes from prosecuting anyway -- an expensive proposition win or lose.

 

[genderbender]

Madame Pandora, how wonderful to meet you! As I wrote the first line of my entry on this thread I thought of you and wondered if you might react. Although I'm new to this site, I noticed your comments and the graphic image you use. Please excuse me for opening your box!

No doubt everything you say is true. I've spent many years healing from my own unfortunate encounter with a pedophile when I was a youngster. I understand that the reality of sex between adults and young people is inherently problematic, largely because of the power differential between the participants. It is a bit ironic that we're having this conversation on a site devoted to erotic writing when so much of what is troubling about sexual development arises because of the monstrous overemphasis on sex within our culture. I know from personal experience that sexual abuse leads to sexualizing behavior in the victim. I also know that children who are encouraged to be seductive, to flaunt their bodies, will have difficulty in establishing healthy relationships. We play with sexuality here and consider ourselves liberated. It don't think it would be out of order since we're having such a serious conversation to ponder the question of whether our preoccupation with sex as "literature" is perhaps unhealthy as well.

I don't have an answer to that question. I ponder at times whether the extensive writing of erotica that I've done over the years hasn't been, in fact, an important part of my healing from sexual abuse. I certainly wouldn't, under any circumstance, want what I write to fuel sexual acting out that would harm young people. Yet, I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone who frequents this site has the emotional maturity or psychological well-being to enjoy their sexuality without hurting those around them. Oh well

 

[Laurel]

Perhaps I'm making light of potential legal concerns of the site's operators, but when do words become illegal? It's behavior that's problematic, not the fantasies in which an adult indulges.

I agree - words are just words. I don't put fiction in the same class as reality - if I did, then war novels would be the height of obscenity. I've also been a teen, and know that teens are sexual beings. Our over-18 policy is not born out of some moral standard (though we are staunchly against pedophilia). It is there to keep us out of unnecessary trouble. No matter where we draw the line, there will be people who think it unfair. However, as we are not ready to publish stories involving children, we must draw a line. Minors in the US are those under the age of 18, so that's the safest line to draw.

There are sites that do publish underage stories, most notably White Shadow (whiteshadow.pornopartners.com) and Black Spectre (I forget the URL on that one). Though those sites run things differently than we do at Literotica, they have been around for a long time and the webmaster has gained respect in the online story world, and from us. I recommend them for any stories that don't meet our guidelines that wouldn't survive an editing.

 

[LittleP]

Originally posted by Weird Harold

Laurel is NOT lenient about underage sex, bestiality, or plagiarism. Every so often, an underage character slipps past her, but it WILL get the story pulled if someone brings it to her attention.

Well, I just read a great story that involved two 15-year old friends seducing one of the freinds' college-age brother. I'm not going to name it, since I don't want to be responsible for the removal of a good story. Besides, it didn't offend me... I rather enjoyed it, if you know what I mean!

Still, it makes me wonder where the line is here? Did the story get by because it was a nested taboo (i.e. underage inside incest)? Or was it because the minors were doing the seducing? There was nothing subtle about it... so there must be a reason.

I'm sure that if I wanted to make a big enough case about it, I could try and compile a list of stories that violate the policy, but then everyone would hate me! Besides, I figure it's not real smart to pick a fight with the operators of a site that you just joined.

I guess my point is that stories probably don't 'slip by' here. There has to be a reason for the execptions, and I'm just curious as to what it is.

 

[Crossley]

I guess my point is that stories probably don't 'slip by' here. There has to be a reason for the execptions, and I'm just curious as to what it is.

My guess is that the exception is exceptional writing. Remove the age restriction and the trickle of underage submissions the editors already receive would turn into a tsunami of stories involving 8-year-olds, 5-year-olds, infants and fetuses. I think it's a sensible strategy.

To the original topic, I recall a merry ol' tale of a cannibalistic serial killer that's just been made into a motion picture. I think the obscenity here is not the story itself, but that there are people out there who would sooner prosecute the writer of a story involving two horny 15-year-olds. What, if anything, is going through their minds? Would they rather see their own teens stabbed and eaten than having sex? Sheesh.

I've set the minimum age to 14 at my own site. Call it civil disobedience. Call it faith in my country's legal system. The moment someone prosecutes me however, I'll incinerate my citizeship papers and relocate to a log cabin in northern Finland.

Crossley
>> read it and seep

 

[KillerMuffin]

I doubt the story slipped by on purpose. Most likely it was story number 363,623,232,665 in the queue and fifteen didn't even register. I've reported, though not on the board, stories that violated the rules. What happened? A day or so later the same story featured an 18 year old girl, rather than a 16 year old one.

A concern that has to be brought forth is the Great Perjurist, Ashcroft. He just got there, but one never knows what DOJ will do. Ashcroftian justice may be reminiscent of McCarthyism and his fear of commies. Or it may just be a guy who likes to prosecute pardoned and warrent re-issued rich billionaires.

Yes, teenagers fuck. Yes, they make good stories. Yes, teenagers fucking is illegal in the US when adults are involved. It's called statutory rape. When in pornography it's called child pornography, also illegal in the US. There is a gray area about it when no actual teenagers are involved, just the words. After all, there are pictures of 20 year old women in cheerleading outfits and pigtails all over the net, images that give the impression of 15 and 16 year old girls. There are stories all over the net inferring the young age of the characters without coming out and saying it. In the US it's against the law to display sexual images of people under the age of 18, it also appears to be against some law or convention to state that the adult models are underage (it never happens, I don't know). It doesn't take much logic to take it from images to stories.

Censorship sucks. Pedophilia sucks even worse. If I had to choose between the two, and in this instance it appears so, I pick censorship.

I, as an editor, have received stories featuring minors. I have also stated quite plainly in at least three places that literotica policy does not permit characters to be minors, if they want to post at lit, they should change the age of the characters, otherwise, post elsewhere.

 

[genderbender]

Hot Stuff

There are sites that do publish underage stories, most notably White Shadow (whiteshadow.pornopartners.com) and Black Spectre (I forget the URL on that one). Though those sites run things differently than we do at Literotica, they have been around for a long time and the webmaster has gained respect in the online story world, and from us. I recommend them for any stories that don't meet our guidelines that wouldn't survive an editing.

Laurel - Thanks for the referral to the sites above. I checked them out and found some things that tickled me. But boy, there's stuff out there I wouldn't touch on a bet. It's interesting to watch my own reaction to underage stories at those sites. Clearly I have my own limits. I respect your position and am grateful for the excellence of this site. I've submitted one story to the Extreme section, so I know I can indulge some of my more bizarre fantasies there.

 

[Closet Desire]

good guidelines...

...I think Laurel has it about right. Without reasonably clear lines I think we would soon find ourselves surrounded by sexual preferances many of us would find revolting--however we feel about teens having sex.

I personally don't have a penchant for girls--or even young women (my father warned me I might one day find 50 year old women attractive)--and women dressed up as cheerleaders with pig tails only makes me laugh hysterically.

Outside of Literotica--which is pretty much a community--there are often different rules. Teen sex and teen discovery is a common thing on TV, cinema, and books. Our first book, Closet Desire, included a few stories about sex between underage teens. The book was fully inspected by the chief editor at the publisher (which clearly states they will not publish pornography), got their seal of approval and was published in December.

I wouldn't change the rules at Lit because I think they achieve a good balance and, since it applies only to Lit, I don't consider it censorship either. There are plenty of publishers who impose limits on what they will publish and we don't call that censorship. It's censorship with a government agency or power restricts what we can say or writer. If you have something that you think will not violate "community standards" where you live then you just look for someone who will publish your work rather than fight those who won't. They have their own reasons for declining.

My own opinion of course...

 

[genderbender]

What a wonderful, literate conversation. I imagined this thread might prompt controversy, for this sensitive subject touches tender places for many of us. And I don't doubt that some resistance to considering the subject at all comes from unhealed places. It becomes easier to rail against a subject than to consider it with care.

As a newcomer to bulletin boards, including this site, of course, I'm surprised by the thoughtfulness of contributors. I'm impressed!

 

[scorpio00155]

Just a quick 2 Euro's worth.

As a Brit I live in an area where the legal age of sexual consent is 16, there are areas in mainland Europe where 14 is legal (and the Brit politicians go through the same routine of shock/horror as the US ones do for anything under 18).

The bulk of my stories are written "Brit" and adjusted later to "US" for posting here. Easy enough to with a WP program, but I do sometimes wish the US kids would mature quicker (said with tongue firmly in cheek).

Scorpio00155