Sex and Religion

[Jaymal]

Okay, there's an extent to which this is just a cheap attempt to drum up some feedback on one of my more neglected stories, link provided; I figured there'd be more interest, positive or negative, dealing as it does with sexual repression in religion, but people have been pretty quiet.

I'm also interested, however, in the extent to which this subject matter has been explored elsewhere on the site. Any suggestions?

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=354593

Jaymal

 

[AverageBear]

A very timely issue...

...not only because it's Easter week, but because I just submitted a story on Monday that deals with this same issue of religious sexual repression, with a very different plot line, entitled "The Catholic Lifeguard's Baptism." I'll post a link as soon as the story is posted in the next day or two. My story is a much cheekier approach, blending religion, sex and humour, not poking fun at religion but rather using humour to push the characters to seriously evaluate the appropriate application of their faith.

I took the time to read your story slowly and carefully, and posted a positive public comment. Yours is very well-written and accurately reflects the inner struggle between a genuine evangelical Christian faith and the lusts of the flesh. I thought the kidnapping aspect was a little over the top, but these stories are about fantasy rather than reality, after all.

I'm surprised your story hasn't garnered more feedback. I'd encourage people who read this discussion board to take a look at it, if they have any religious or spiritual inclination whatsoever.

My one poem (as opposed to 7 stories) submitted to Lit, entitled "Why Did God?", is a gut-wrenching self-reflection on the struggle between the beauties of faith and the entanglement of carnal desires. It's posted at http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=392346. I'd appreciate any feedback on that - poems tend to receive far less attention than stories.

Thanks for raising an extremely legitimate discussion point, Jaymal.

AverageBear in Canada

 

[CWatson]

Well, I can only speak for myself on the story at hand; I skipped through most of it, since most of it was, well, sex. As far as I'm concerned, you've read one sex, you've read it all--to the point that, if you happened to be a virgin, you could still reproduce sex scenes with some veracity just by parroting what you've read. Not that I would, you know, have any personal experience with this or anything, ahem ahem.

The problem I had with your story was that you brought up the question--how do we, as people of Christian faith, and particularly as people who are called upon to resist temptation, reconcile our very real bodily needs with our calling?--but didn't really answer it. Danny was, essentially, raped; he enjoyed it and clearly needed the release; he felt guilty over needing that release. But the core conflict--that his faith requires celibacy while his body requires relief; that his faith requires him to feel guilty over needing relief--was never resolved. Rhianna asked the question; but it was never answered. How do we deal with the fact that we want sex? How can we compromise our faith with a physical need as insistent as the need for oxygen? What methods can we employ to help release some of that pressure?, since most of us don't have access to two wily temptresses who will slip Viagra in our lemonade. It's good to ask the question. But one needs to start discussing it too, if one intends to provide some guidance. (And as to whether asking the question at all is enough, well, that depends on the question itself, and whether it has been asked before. In your case, it has, which diminishes the impact somewhat.)

Obviously, there are factions within the Christian faith that are both in favor of and against masturbation. I can only speak for myself, but I think it's healthy--and, in lieu of female sexuality, arguably necessary for a fulfilling sex life (whether begun before or after marriage). The whole Christian ideal seems to be that the first person who should know you biblically is your spouse. I disagree: I believe the first person who should know you biblically is you. I think there's something beautiful about bringing carnal experience to a marriage and knowing what you want; I also think there's something beautiful about bringing innocence and a wide-eyed exploration as well, so that you learn what you want. The attitude I find harmful is that you shouldn't learn what you want, that sex is best done blindfolded and as reluctantly as possible. Thankfully, very few Christians actually think this way anymore (though it'll take a few more generations before the public catches on).

As to pornography, I think that it's not sinful to share a beautiful and joyful side of yourself to the world. Obviously, it can be exploitative and degrading to women (and, for that matter, to men!), and I oppose such "work"--not because it involves sex, but because it's exploitative and degrading to women. I think that if two people want to share the sacrament of their lovemaking with other people, to help and inspire those other people achieve their own sexual success, then they should do so. We all have our gifts, after all.

As to other stories that explore some of these themes, I guess it's toot-my-own-horn time. I wrote a rather long novel (16 parts, 200,000 words) involving some of these discussions, called The First Ninety Days. It centers around two people who rushed into marriage, but one of them is decidedly more Christian than the other, and I played with that angle some too. Part One starts here--http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=377749--but the religious aspect starts coming into real focus starting later, particularly part 3 which contains the sort of pastor I wish every pastor was. (And I am humbled and extremely grateful that I actually have met a priest very much like him.)

 

[mike_writes]

Great comments, and I'll look forward to reading all the stories and poems cited here. The comments I see regarding religion around the site lead me to believe that far too many people don't see how deep the connection is between sex and religion, and that many regulars assume that people of faith don't come or are ashamed about it if they do.

Throughout the Christian Bible, the analogy is made that the relationship between humankind and God is like the relationship between sexual lovers. Sexual relationships are one of the few things in human experience that come close to capturing the passion and intensity of the spiritual relationship that Christians believe God wants with us. The idea that we could know our every physical and moral flaw our lover has and still desire them intensely is what both sex and religion are all about.

The analogy of lovers permeates the language of the Old Testament. God is described as 'a jealous god.' Some people are 'faithful' and others choose to 'go whoring after other gods.' An entire book (Song of Songs) is either soft-core pornography or a celebration of this analogy. In the New Testament, the ultimate fulfillment of history is described at great length as 'The Wedding Feast of Lamb'. Somehow I think the authors had consumation of the marriage in mind when they wrote that, not wedding cake and the chicken dance.

Now, not every sexual act is going to have positive consequences. One of the reasons I love erotica is that it allows me to explore sexual situations that may excite me but I'm fairly certain would not result in positive things if I tried them in real life. But the list of 'thou shalt nots' is a lot shorter than most would suspect - almost always the morality of a sexual act is dependent on the context of the situation, including who may benefit from or be hurt by an act. Leviticus provides a set of judgements that apply to a particular time, place and social context. Those conclusions may or may not apply to our circumstances today.

Great thread!

 

[oil_paint03]

Wow.
Now that the exclamation is out of the way...

As one schooled in late 1960-70s Roman catholicism, who studied eastern philosophy and the western "take" of eastern thought, years in the episcopal church of the USA, then the anglican church...right now I am feeling pretty sure that 'religion' and God do not mix well.

I do believe in God - I believe God did all of this (picture Julie Andrews spinning on a green, Austrian slope), and that sex is pleasurable for a very, very good reason. I think the bible does a good job of outlining some of the obvious consequences of selfish actions (e.g., discord) as does other foundational tomes of other faiths.

And if I could paraphrase one of my favorite theologians, Ghandi, when he provided his short list of social sins: politics without principle, wealth without work, commerce without morality, pleasure without conscience, education without character, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice.

I don't think it takes much - just a look beyond ones self, and to another.

 

[destinys2sexy]

Sex and religion go hand and hand

I think there should be a religion that encourages sex every day. The other day, a pastor I was listening too on tv said that for atleast one week each month couples should have sex 7 days in a row.... he got my attention.

 

[mia_erotica]

Jaymal: Lusts of the Flesh is a very well written story. I liked that the main character, Danny, practiced integrity. I didn't think he was a Catholic or that he couldn't have a sexual relationship. Am I wrong? I thought he exercised resraint when dealing with parishoners and that he genuinely had respect for his job.

I don't like men to be passive sexually but I loved this story because of Danny's likable and sincere character.

 

[Jaymal]

Danny's Predicament

Thanks to everyone for replying so far and to Mia and Average Bear for the encouraging comments. When I have a little more time some individual responses will be in order. Danny is from a Protestant Evangelical church (as was I, no surprise there) and there's nothing in his religion preventing him from marrying and enjoying sex in that context. For purposes of the story, however, he was still single and celibate. I didn't want anyone weak-minded or hypocritcal for my central character, rather someone likeable and worthy of respect, who held to their convictions almost to the last - hence the coersive aspect, forcing the poor guy to undergo an extreme, guiltily delicious form of what he's been denying himself and then to deal with the psychological consequences. There's another story to be written about a sincere believer gradually being lured away from their convictions, but that would take a lot more space. (A spirited Christian girl perhaps, and a plausible, cunning seducer seeking a challenge. We'll see...)

It's true I don't answer CWatson's question about reconciling the need for sexual release with religious faith - that too is a whole other story, perhaps following Danny once his disgrace forces him from the church. Certainly he's not going to jettison everything he believes, but can he really back off from Hailey's obvious charms? I've got my own ideas about how his life and thinking might develop, but maybe I'll save them till I hear what other people think.

 

[AverageBear]

"The Catholic Lifeguard's Baptism" has been posted...

My aforementioned story was posted today, Good Friday. It is a somewhat cheeky but not contemptuous look at a sincere young Catholic woman being tempted away from her planned vows of celibacy. It doesn't nicely fit into any one Lit category. It was submitted under the "Non-Consent / Reluctance" category but it's definitely not a rape fantasy (rather it's about overcoming serious sexual repression). It could equally well fit under "Romance", "First Time", "Erotic Couplings", "Incest / Taboo" (NOT incest but rather taboo subjects), Exhibitionist & Voyeur, or even Anal (though by no means exclusively focused on that form of encounter). I'd appreciate comments from those interested in this thread.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=414710

 

[CWatson]

Jaymal, I think one of the key words you used was "integrity", and one I just wanted to touch on briefly. I happen to think integrity is one of the most important parts of a soul and/or personality, and it makes me sad (and not a bit nervous) at how many of my contemporaries don't seem to have it.

Obviously, Danny wants to be true to his own convictions; he wants to have integrity. That was an astute storytelling choice and did a lot to make him likeable. Furthermore, you've shown that he has the ability to evaluate what he hears, both from the spiritual and the secular, and make his own adjustments--the whole masturbation thing showed that. He knows he's committing a technical sin, but he's also realistic and intelligent enoguh to know that perfect purity is simply outside the realm of reality for him right now. Instead, he sets himself a more realistic standard, and then holds himself to it.

I think that's one of the core decisions that every person has to make for their own life, eventually: what standards to I hold myself to? And, do I succeed? As you've described, these decisions would probably be the real meat of Danny's story should you choose to continue it. Were I going to write that continuation, Danny would probably express what I happen to believe--which is that standards, and integrity to them, are central to the concept of morality. In my personal theology, God (obviously) has certain standards He wants us to adhere to, but gives us credit for having standards at all. I think that God wants us to be moral people, even if not moral by His particular rules.

But I'm not writing the story; you are; so you get to put your own ending and theology on it.

 

[Adrian69702006]

Well, I can only speak for myself on the story at hand; I skipped through most of it, since most of it was, well, sex. As far as I'm concerned, you've read one sex, you've read it all--to the point that, if you happened to be a virgin, you could still reproduce sex scenes with some veracity just by parroting what you've read. Not that I would, you know, have any personal experience with this or anything, ahem ahem.

The problem I had with your story was that you brought up the question--how do we, as people of Christian faith, and particularly as people who are called upon to resist temptation, reconcile our very real bodily needs with our calling?--but didn't really answer it. Danny was, essentially, raped; he enjoyed it and clearly needed the release; he felt guilty over needing that release. But the core conflict--that his faith requires celibacy while his body requires relief; that his faith requires him to feel guilty over needing relief--was never resolved. Rhianna asked the question; but it was never answered. How do we deal with the fact that we want sex? How can we compromise our faith with a physical need as insistent as the need for oxygen? What methods can we employ to help release some of that pressure?, since most of us don't have access to two wily temptresses who will slip Viagra in our lemonade. It's good to ask the question. But one needs to start discussing it too, if one intends to provide some guidance. (And as to whether asking the question at all is enough, well, that depends on the question itself, and whether it has been asked before. In your case, it has, which diminishes the impact somewhat.)

Obviously, there are factions within the Christian faith that are both in favor of and against masturbation. I can only speak for myself, but I think it's healthy--and, in lieu of female sexuality, arguably necessary for a fulfilling sex life (whether begun before or after marriage). The whole Christian ideal seems to be that the first person who should know you biblically is your spouse. I disagree: I believe the first person who should know you biblically is you. I think there's something beautiful about bringing carnal experience to a marriage and knowing what you want; I also think there's something beautiful about bringing innocence and a wide-eyed exploration as well, so that you learn what you want. The attitude I find harmful is that you shouldn't learn what you want, that sex is best done blindfolded and as reluctantly as possible. Thankfully, very few Christians actually think this way anymore (though it'll take a few more generations before the public catches on).

As to pornography, I think that it's not sinful to share a beautiful and joyful side of yourself to the world. Obviously, it can be exploitative and degrading to women (and, for that matter, to men!), and I oppose such "work"--not because it involves sex, but because it's exploitative and degrading to women. I think that if two people want to share the sacrament of their lovemaking with other people, to help and inspire those other people achieve their own sexual success, then they should do so. We all have our gifts, after all.

As to other stories that explore some of these themes, I guess it's toot-my-own-horn time. I wrote a rather long novel (16 parts, 200,000 words) involving some of these discussions, called The First Ninety Days. It centers around two people who rushed into marriage, but one of them is decidedly more Christian than the other, and I played with that angle some too. Part One starts here--http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=377749--but the religious aspect starts coming into real focus starting later, particularly part 3 which contains the sort of pastor I wish every pastor was. (And I am humbled and extremely grateful that I actually have met a priest very much like him.)

I think the relationship between faith, sex, sexuality and the other things which make us human is something which deserves to explored more than it is. For Christians - and indeed the adherents of other faiths too - there can often be a sense of conflict arising from what are perhaps perfectly natural desires or instincts on the one hand, and what certain preachers teach as being right or wrong. Matters aren't helped by the fact that the Bible says a lot less about sex than is sometimes supposed; what it does say usually has a specific cultural or historical context and is often open to interpretation.

Masturbation, as such, is nowhere mentioned in the Bible and the nearest we get to it is the story of Onan in which he withdraws from his wife prior to ejaculation. Yet for all of this, until fairly recently, there was a general consensus that it was sinful - even if commonplace.

There isn't much more said about homosexuality either, although it is briefly alluded to in one or two passages, the meaning of which are at least open to debate. Romans Ch 1, which may or may not have been written by St Paul, is occasionally quoted by some people as a definitive condemnation of homosexuality. It certainly condemns men and women for lying with their own kind and exchanging ' natural relations' for 'unnatural' ones. However the same passage also condemns much else, including the greedy, those who are hateful and idolatorous and who disrespect relatives who deserve respect. Many scholars are of the opinion that this apparent condemnation of homosexuality is, in fact, a condemnation of promiscuity and aimed at those who used prostitutes (male and female) which were part of the Temple establishment at Jerusalem. There is a generally held view that it wasn't meant to condemn people in steady, loving, same-sex relationships because such relationships were unknown to the world of First and Second Century Palestine.

Since the Fifties, attitudes in both Anglican and Nonconformist (Free) Protestant Churches have in the main become much more liberal. Notice has been taken of modern psychology and the view that masturbation is a sin has become all but obsolete. In more recent years attitudes towards homosexuality and same-sex relationships have also become much more liberal too. Rome still officially condemns masturbation, although in practice I think it's doubtful whether many priests take the same view whilst in the confessional. Rome also considers homosexuality to be 'intrinsically disordered' whilst at the same time encouraging a pastorally sympathetic attitude to those who are homosexual in orientation, trying in effect to square a difficult circle.

An Anglican myself, I take the fairly liberal view that what consenting adults do in private is a matter for them and no one else. In my view, wrong is only done if there's an absence of mutual consent or one party isn't able (or old enough) to give consent. At the end of the day, one of the key teachings of Christianity is that we love our neighbours as ourselves, and that applies as surely in the bedroom as anywhere else. We can only love someone if we respect their wishes and boundaries as we'd expect them to respect ours.

 

[xssve]

Okay, there's an extent to which this is just a cheap attempt to drum up some feedback on one of my more neglected stories, link provided; I figured there'd be more interest, positive or negative, dealing as it does with sexual repression in religion, but people have been pretty quiet.

I'm also interested, however, in the extent to which this subject matter has been explored elsewhere on the site. Any suggestions?

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=354593

Jaymal

A well written story, hot, but with convincing psychological edge, thumbs up.

 

[destinys2sexy]

I also gives it a thumbs up. It reminds a lot of something that happened to me before. On another topic.... The other day a mormon guy came to my door to convert me... and he was flirting, is that appropriate?!?!??!?

 

[Jaymal]

Thanks and apologies

Thanks - for the encouraging direction of the thumbs, intriguing insights and suggestions for further reading.

Apologies - for not having responded thoroughly to all the comments; I'll be back at my own computer tomorrow and will have more time at my disposal.

Jaymal

 

[AverageBear]

I also gives it a thumbs up. It reminds a lot of something that happened to me before. On another topic.... The other day a mormon guy came to my door to convert me... and he was flirting, is that appropriate?!?!??!?

That's one of the reasons why they're supposed to always travel in pairs - for mutual accountability. So it's probably more inappropriate that he showed up by himself than that he was flirting. A little innocent flirting may lead to more successful conversion rates. If he'd had a companion with him, he'd have a built-in constraint on where the flirting may go. It almost sounds as if you had someone posing as a Mormon - finding a creative way to meet people (hopefully harmless, but you can't be too careful these days).

 

[destinys2sexy]

The other day I cheated on my husband. I wanted your opinion on what I should do? Tell him... or just pretend like it never happened.

 

[Jaymal]

If I may...

Since it cropped up on my thread, I'll venture an opinion. I don't think there's anything to gain by telling him. Salving one's conscience can be at the expense of the other person's happiness. Best to live with it and move on. We all screw up at times.

Thanks for your positive comment on Lusts of the Flesh by the way.

I did door-to-door work for a church years ago and flirting just wasn't supposed to happen.

 

[CWatson]

What should you do?

1) You should ask that question on the "How To" board instead, which is where you'd get a wider spectrum of advice.

2) I agree with Jaymal that telling him may not really help anything. What you need to do instead, aside from whatever form of self-incrimination you care to indulge in *wry smile*, is ask yourself why you cheated on him. Ideally, you shouldn't be looking beyond your husband for sexual or emotional satisfaction. The fact that you are is a big warning sign that your marriage is in trouble. So ask yourself, Why is it in trouble? What makes you dissatisfied, and what can you and your husband do to satisfy those unmet needs? Maybe the two of you can find ways to make you happy within your marriage. Maybe you can't, and it's time to divorce him and move on. Whichever one will best serve your emotional well-being, you should do, because keeping yourself safe and sane is one of the most important things you can do for yourself. But don't lie and cheat for it. You made a promise, in the sight of gods and men, to honor your husband and be good to him. If you can't keep them, then--no offense, ma'am--you have much larger problems than the fact that you're unhappy in your marriage. =\

 

[mia_erotica]

Jaymal fan club

I'm bumping this thread in the hope that more people will read Jaymal's sexy stories.

 

[Jaymal]

Why thank you, Mia, founder member of the Jaymal fan club, for trying to drum up new membership. Your efforts are inspiring.