"Separated by a room and five hundred words?"

[joy_of_cooking]

I'm writing a romance (my first >750 entry into Romance!) between two single parents (of toddlers) juggling work and childcare and trying to steal a moment for themselves here and there. This might require a more precise understanding of Lit's sex-around-minors guidelines than I've needed before. Could people weigh in on whether the following scenarios would be acceptable?

1. At the park, while the kids are playing, stepping between two tall cars to make out for a few seconds. (It's established that this isn't considered negligent, because there are lots of other adults around, they can hear their kids the whole time if if they don't have line of sight, etc.)
2. Petting on the couch while admonishing each other to be quiet lest they wake the kids napping in another room.
3. Cuddling companionably, not sexily, where the kids can see them. Imagine sitting on the couch with their legs intertwined or with one's head on the other's shoulder.
4. Playing footsie under the table while eating dinner with the kids. Exchanging looks over their heads and dropping hints about what might come after the kids are in bed.
5. Openly kissing each other hello and goodbye. Maybe on the cheek, maybe on the lips, but quick and with the lips closed.
6. A blowjob with the door locked after the kids are in bed in a different room.
7. FMC telling MMC, in her kids' hearing, "Let's have dinner together. Just the two of us. It'll be an adult dinner." Wink wink. Kids (three and four years old) would be shown as not understanding, but of course it'd be clear to the reader what that means.

Again, not looking for a discussion on the merits of Lit's policy here, just trying to understand what it is so I can stay on the right side of the line.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I'm pretty sure that's all fine - as long as the 'hints' and 'winks' aren't too over the top. I suspect there's nothing there which would be too hard to smooth over if, by chance, it does get bounced.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think proximity alone would be disqualifying. You have to apply a kind of smell test: are you trying to get away with something? Is the proximity to or interaction with kids part of the eroticism? Doesn't seem like it here. The scenarios you describe seem justified by the fact that they are real and lend authenticity, rather than titillation, to the scenes.

 

[intim8]

Is the proximity to or interaction with kids part of the eroticism?

I think that is the key question. That would be a definite no-go, but stealing a little tame PDA despite the kids being in proximity is the opposite.

 

[lovecraft68]

My take on this is you're playing with fire with the rules, mostly because no one can ever predict what flies and doesn't thanks to inconsistent enforcement.

My other thought is considering the platform we're on, is it imperative that the young children have to always be around?

What I am getting at is, that you are using young children as the device to drive the story, the taboo-true use of the word-of fooling around to whatever degree with the kids close by, the air of nervous excitement of getting caught... and its by underage children.

Maybe this is all just me, but I wouldn't recommend playing with this here.

 

[WrongFrog]

I've written romance stories here in the past where one or both sides had kids. As long as the kids aren't described as being involved in the adult time in any way, you should be fine- I had two of my characters necking on couch and quickly headed to more when they were interrupted by kiddo having a nightmare and walking in on them. As long as they do the normal parent thing of "put that on ice, handle kiddo" it seems like it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

In point 3, I wonder if 'legs intertwined' might be a bit much. But I've never pushed this envelope in my own writing.

 

[Smuttyandfun]

I had the same problem when I wrote "That Little Spark." She had a five year son and he had a five year old nephew, that he was raising. I just made sure that whenever they got close, the kids were asleep or outside playing. I also used a baby monitor, so they'd be able to hear them if they woke up.

First time they really connected, her mother had offered to take the kids, so they didn't have to worry about getting caught.

The story did well, and there were no objections to there being little kids in the story.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I've never understood the confusion about the under 18 rule.

Kids in stories is perfectly fine as long as they are not involved in or exposed, physically or mentally, to any sexual acts. The OP's scenarios clearly meet that standard.

Scenes that are written to arouse, titillate, or appeal to a normal person's prurient perception are considered sexual acts. Displays of affection by two fully clothed adults or minor children would not typically fit the definition.

As always, the context of the scene and how it is written trumps the literary content, which is why some complain about the ambiguity of the rule here.

 

[intim8]

I have one scene in a story that I've put aside that probably more than pushes the envelope, but not for eroticism. It's one scene buried in the middle of a massive three novel length story with a dozens college age and older characters, where a five year old barges into his sister's bedroom and catches her and her boyfriend in the act. They're mortified, not turned on, and they cover up immediately so his view is only a second or two. But his view is pretty explicit, even though it is not told from his point of view.

The point of it is that he thinks he is hurting her, and it becomes a minor family crisis that ends up with the boyfriend's acceptance into the family, signaled by the kid understanding that he wasn't hurting her and drawing a picture of their dying mother looking down on the family, including him.

I put it aside for other reasons, but the scene - not of the kid catching them (that's only one sentence), but of what happens after - is really good and I don't want to have to cut it if I decide to move forward on that huge project and post it here.

Edit: I know I would have to cut it. But it hurts. The boyfriend and girl visit her mother in hospice regularly, and she is a really interesting character in her own right, one that later, the memory of makes for another nice moment. The kid adores the boyfriend, seeing him as kind of a big brother, and when this happens, everyone is devastated, until it's resolved. It marks a significantt turning point in their relationship.

It is blatantly obvious that the kid's very brief involvement is the opposite of erotic, or even romantic, but I know it would not fly here, and I couldn't take the chance of chapter 30 or whatever getting rejected over it when the others are all up and the remainder of the story all written.

If anybody has a way to instigate that family crisis other than the kid seeing what he saw, please tell me. I've been wracking my brain, and can't figure it.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

A lot of the eroticism of this story is about whether they'll manage to get it on before they get caught.

If it's made clear that the couple stop before any child sees anything, they're under covers should a child invade the room, etc, and acting like you'd hope any responsible parental figure would around children, it should be fine.

If it's presented as any eroticism relating to the getting caught, eg one adult is turned on from the embarrassment of being caught, or a child might see something 'confusing', that would cross the line.

If it's simply a story about stop-stsrt sex and finally managing to get it on, and the interruptions could be anything, I doubt there would be a problem. (IANLaurel and this opinion is worth what you paid for it)

 

[BBlaketbv]

1. At the park, while the kids are playing, stepping between two tall cars to make out for a few seconds. (It's established that this isn't considered negligent, because there are lots of other adults around, they can hear their kids the whole time if if they don't have line of sight, etc.)
I would advise against this one. They are very close to young children, and it may attract the wrong sort of readers. It isn't against the rules, but I personally would say this is too close for comfort.

2. Petting on the couch while admonishing each other to be quiet lest they wake the kids napping in another room.
Absolutely fine. Kids are asleep, and in another room.

3. Cuddling companionably, not sexily, where the kids can see them. Imagine sitting on the couch with their legs intertwined or with one's head on the other's shoulder.
Absolutely fine. Showing affection is something different than showing sexual intimacy.

4. Playing footsie under the table while eating dinner with the kids. Exchanging looks over their heads and dropping hints about what might come after the kids are in bed.
Depends on how you write it. Probably fine.

5. Openly kissing each other hello and goodbye. Maybe on the cheek, maybe on the lips, but quick and with the lips closed.
Absolutely fine. see 3

6. A blowjob with the door locked after the kids are in bed in a different room.
Absolutely fine. see 2

7. FMC telling MMC, in her kids' hearing, "Let's have dinner together. Just the two of us. It'll be an adult dinner." Wink wink. Kids (three and four years old) would be shown as not understanding, but of course it'd be clear to the reader what that means.
The way you say it, that the kids have no idea, makes it okay. Just be careful how you write it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I put it aside for other reasons, but the scene - not of the kid catching them (that's only one sentence), but of what happens after - is really good and I don't want to have to cut it if I decide to move forward on that huge project and post it here.

One simple sentence, "Oh god, there's Jakey, he's seen us" should be okay, especially with all the context around it. When you submit it, add a note to Laurel, specifically drawing her attention to the scene.

But I wouldn't not write it for fear of rejection. That's second guessing a response, which might be a wrong second guess. I've got several stories with babies or children where there's motherhood or innocence involved, but any sexual content is five hundred words away. No problems getting them through.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Kids are fine, so long as they are not participating in or witnessing nudity or sexual activity of any sort. Kisses are generally fine until tongues get involved. Mom and Dad having at it but having to stop hurriedly because the kids get home from school early is fine so long as they’re dressed by the time the rug-rats burst into the bedroom.

 

[intim8]

But I wouldn't not write it for fear of rejection

That's not why it is currently on the back burner, but if I do move on it, that scene will be a looming issue.

I could do the story without it, even without the whole family acceptance scenes, but it would remove one of the many nice little things that I think gives the story it's charm.

Thanks. I'll keep your advice in mind.

For full context, they're doing it, making love, not fucking, the door bursts open, they're shocked and cover up instantly, the kid runs away crying. They immediately get dressed, their "moment" is over, and go out to face the family (who knew and approved of them sleeping together). Grandma asks what he saw, she says "everything". Then they all console the kid and explain in age appropriate terms that they love each other etc.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

For full context, they're doing it, making love, not fucking, the door bursts open, they're shocked and cover up instantly, the kid runs away crying. They immediately get dressed, their "moment" is over, and go out to face the family (who knew and approved of them sleeping together). Grandma asks what he saw, she says "everything". Then they all console the kid and explain in age appropriate terms that they love each other etc.

Okay, not to be a wet blanket, ‘cause I can indeed see the charm, but I think you’d have a seriously hard time selling that to Laurel. I’ve might of course be wrong - good luck.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Okay, not to be a wet blanket, ‘cause I can indeed see the charm, but I think you’d have a seriously hard time selling that to Laurel. I’ve might of course be wrong - good luck.

I think a one sentence, "oh my God, the child has seen us" declaration will get through, but any hint or suggestion that the child is a participant or the adults are sexualising the encounter in any way, that's a flat no.

The test, as others have pointed out, is whether the scene is deliberately or unintentionally suggesting there's more here to the eye, encouraging readers to read between the lines (between the sheets). The surrounding context is key - if it's all understated - but may still be intimate between the adults - then it's more likely to pass. But if the preceding and subsequent passages are full blown Caligula porn or blatant fucking, then the child is a prop, no one is fooled, and Laurel didn't come down in the last shower.

I'd still say, write it and tell Laurel it's there, than not write it.

I don't think this is set up is remotely close to the guy we had several months ago trying to get a hall pass for breast feeding and cunilingus in the same paragraph.

 

[intim8]

Okay, not to be a wet blanket, ‘cause I can indeed see the charm, but I think you’d have a seriously hard time selling that to Laurel. I’ve might of course be wrong - good luck.

Yeah, I know. In fact, I'm convinced it would not get through, despite EB's encouragement. And by the time I'm ready to post it, 20 some previous chapters will already be up.

So the question is...

Given the situation: the family likes the boyfriend, father and mother included. The kid adores and looks up to him until <something> happens that makes him think the boyfriend is bad. He's convinced otherwise by the family and the mother (in hospice). He loves to draw, so he draws a picture of the family that includes the boyfriend. It strengthens their relationship, and even strengthens the family, who is in a crisis with the mother's terminal cancer at only 40-ish years old.

... what else can that <something> be? I'd love to find something that would be as believable and impactful that wouldn't risk triggering a rejection.

Oh, and the main story is these kids (early college-age ish) are starting a social club (shades of Ben Franklin's "Junta" and Scottish pubs of the 16-1700s), backed by real money from the wealthy family of one of the kids. The boyfriend and sister are a founding part of this. After the mother dies, the club votes to start a memorial fund in her name for future members in financial difficulty, because she would have wanted to be part of it if she had lived long enough.

The whole scene in question is part of illustrating what exceptional people these are, and how the sister is so in part because of her mother, and is attracted to the boyfriend because of seeing the same in him.

 

[intim8]

I don't think this is set up is remotely close to the guy we had several months ago trying to get a hall pass for breast feeding and cunilingus in the same paragraph.

Oh gawd....

But yes, if I move forward on it, I will consider your advice very seriously. Maybe even contact Laurel before putting up any of the story, so I know whether I will have to rework the middle.

The damn thing is a complete 300K first draft that I wrote years before I had an account here, or even considered having anywhere to publish it.

 

[AndersonsBiographer]

I'm writing a romance (my first >750 entry into Romance!) between two single parents (of toddlers) juggling work and childcare and trying to steal a moment for themselves here and there. This might require a more precise understanding of Lit's sex-around-minors guidelines than I've needed before. Could people weigh in on whether the following scenarios would be acceptable?

1. At the park, while the kids are playing, stepping between two tall cars to make out for a few seconds. (It's established that this isn't considered negligent, because there are lots of other adults around, they can hear their kids the whole time if if they don't have line of sight, etc.)
2. Petting on the couch while admonishing each other to be quiet lest they wake the kids napping in another room.
3. Cuddling companionably, not sexily, where the kids can see them. Imagine sitting on the couch with their legs intertwined or with one's head on the other's shoulder.
4. Playing footsie under the table while eating dinner with the kids. Exchanging looks over their heads and dropping hints about what might come after the kids are in bed.
5. Openly kissing each other hello and goodbye. Maybe on the cheek, maybe on the lips, but quick and with the lips closed.
6. A blowjob with the door locked after the kids are in bed in a different room.
7. FMC telling MMC, in her kids' hearing, "Let's have dinner together. Just the two of us. It'll be an adult dinner." Wink wink. Kids (three and four years old) would be shown as not understanding, but of course it'd be clear to the reader what that means.

Again, not looking for a discussion on the merits of Lit's policy here, just trying to understand what it is so I can stay on the right side of the line.

All except #1 should be fine, I would think. Probably that one too, though going off for some nookie while other people watch your kids (unless they've been asked and have agreed to do) doesn't seem like a good idea.

If none of them fly, then there's only one other option for you:
8. Your characters are Barsoomians and the "children" are slowly-growing eggs that won't be developed enough to hatch until their 18th birthday.

Don't get too wild around the incubators.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Kids get funny notions. Actually, it’s a major myth that children are charming little angels; they are wretched, petulant little monsters most of the time. Anything can trigger the little beasts and such behaviour in adults is commonly tagged as ‘childish’ for a reason.

Maybe the bf inadvertently threw out something the kid treasured or spoiled the kid’s secret plans by inviting the sister out. Maybe he inadvertently disclosed a secret. It doesn’t have to be something that would upset an adult, just enough to set off the little troll.

 

[intim8]

Maybe the bf inadvertently threw out something the kid treasured or spoiled the kid’s secret plans by inviting the sister out. Maybe he inadvertently disclosed a secret. It doesn’t have to be something that would upset an adult, just enough to set off the little troll.

That's good, but his whole involvement revolves around the relationship with the sister, and part of the kid liking him so much is seeing how much the mother likes him, so I want it to involve the sister. Something a bit more significant than childish petulence. And I'd prefer him to be wholly innocent. (Their only sin in the original scenario was forgetting to lock the bedroom door).

But it does give me an idea. Maybe the BF makes the sister cry. Some minor thing to her, but looks bad to the kid. Though I don't want him bringing the kind of drama that even a small argument would be to the family in the situation they're in. The kid might be mollified, but the rest of the family might not. Maybe he makes her cry in happiness (no, they're nowhere near ready for a ring yet), but the kid doesn't understand the difference.

It's a line of thought to pursue thanks.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I wrote a chapter of Mary and Alvin in which it's a recurring motif that every time they try to have sex, their newborn daughter starts crying and interrupts them. I had no problem getting that through.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Thanks, everyone!

Yeah, the tone is definitely "oh no we have to stop or they might see something and that'd be mortifying" not "oh it's so exciting that we might get caught." So I suppose the kids are involved, in that they are a device to heighten the MCs' sexual frustration, but the kids are not themselves sexualized in any way. It could be a puppy or a boss who won't stop calling after-hours or anything else.