self conscious writing question

[karaline]

Sorry about the random title, I just really don't know how to phrase my question. A few months ago I noticed I have a tendency to do something when I'm writing. I don't know how to describe it so I'm going to give you a few examples.

'They were going to have sex, she realised, right there on his kitchen counter.'

'She noticed he was watching her intently, trying to gage her reaction.'

'He watched as she peeled off her latex gloves and slid the top half of her overalls off, tying the sleeves in a knot around her hips she revealing a strappy leopord skin print top.

I realised the sentences could manage perfectly well without the bits that I've bolded, and I've wondered if they might be unnecessary and perhaps take the reader out of the flow. But yet unless I'm very conscious of my writing I tend to use these phrases repeatedly, particularly in heated or emotional points in the story. At first I thought it might be a self confidence thing and working from the basis that less words are usually better I've tried to delete them when I see them.

...Until a few days ago, when I was reading about pacing and the author showed two different paragraphs. she used the kind of phrases i'm concerned about in the second example, and suggested they improved the pace of the writing. She only touched on the subject briefly, and I haven't come away feeling like I really understand why she thought the second example was better, but she seemed to be suggesting that these extra phrases made the sentences longer; slowing the reader down -something you might want to do at certain points in your writing.

So now I'm confused

Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

 

[ElectricBlue]

the narrator's voice

What these phrases are doing, it seems to me, are bringing the narrator's voice into play.

Without those phrases, the story is faster, more precise, crisper. Cuts to the chase, if you like.

When you introduce the narrator's voice (and it can move close to being the author's voice at times, which is another thing entirely), there is a distance being added to the telling, another layer.

You are introducing the notion of what the narrator has noticed, has realised; which immediately raises the question, what has she missed, why was he slow to realise? What's the psychology of the narrator? It's no longer a straight tell, there's something else going on.

This can add another layer to the telling, the question is what you do with it. It's a style thing. Some writers here will say, never do it, it just slows things down. Others will say, yes, exactly, that's what I want.

Shameless self promotion - I use the narrator's voice a lot, deliberately. I've been called a slow burn writer, languid, serene, slow, laconic, nostalgic, my narrator at times aloof and distant, cynical even. My favourite - like telling a story in front of a fire, with a whiskey in my hand, embers cracking. It's when my narrator's voice tangles and weaves in and out of my author's voice that it gets interesting. That's when it's my job as the writer, to keep up.

 

[sr71plt]

I think it's a function of writer's voice, neither right nor wrong, depending on the context.

 

[49greg]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt because even I think I tend to be too wordy.

For me it depends on the degree. When taken by themselves, all your examples are valid to my way of thinking. When they are all added up though, they tend to be too much.

Without your narrator's voice the sentences may be crisper, but to me they also seem flatter, more devoid of emotion. Especially the last one, "He watched" adds emotion. Just peeling off clothes, well we all do that when we get ready for a shower or bed. Him watching her peeling off clothes, well that's different. Kinda like the difference between "Nude" and "Nekked". It makes it more exciting.

 

[jsmiam]

I'm also of the neither right not wrong crowd. It's your writing, it's how you tell the tale, do what you want!

it's a couple extra words here or there, not extra sentences or paragraphs or pages.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Looks to me like youre simply putting the cart before the horse. My opinion isn't criticism, simply observation. Its not uncommon.

 

[karaline]

Looks to me like youre simply putting the cart before the horse. My opinion isn't criticism, simply observation. Its not uncommon.

No offence taken, not quite sure what you mean, but you're not coming across as particularly harsh.

Shameless self promotion - I use the narrator's voice a lot, deliberately. I've been called a slow burn writer, languid, serene, slow, laconic, nostalgic, my narrator at times aloof and distant, cynical even. My favourite - like telling a story in front of a fire, with a whiskey in my hand, embers cracking. It's when my narrator's voice tangles and weaves in and out of my author's voice that it gets interesting. That's when it's my job as the writer, to keep up.

Thanks Electric Blue for your helpful reply. As for your shameless self promotion. Your writing sounds interesting. Where would you suggest I start?

 

[Handley_Page]

'She noticed he was watching her intently, trying to gage her reaction.'

Please forgive me, but are you trying to write in American or English ?

In English English, that would be gauge.

I just thought that you may be using an 'American' Word Proc.
I urge you to consider changing the default setting to "British English".

 

[sr71plt]

Please forgive me, but are you trying to write in American or English ?

In English English, that would be gauge.

I just thought that you may be using an 'American' Word Proc.
I urge you to consider changing the default setting to "British English".

"gauge" is preferred in American English too.

 

[Handley_Page]

"gauge" is preferred in American English too.

Thank you;
my apologies.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

GAGE is an old word, think of ENGAGE. Gage usta be a dowry or ring fiancées used as marriage performance guarantees. Gauge is a standard for comparison, gage (verb) is the comparison. Everyone gages the value of a diamond.

 

[sr71plt]

Everyone gages the value of a diamond.

Nope. In the American system "gauge" is preferred here too. Look it up in Webster's. At the verb placeholder of "gage," it refers you to "gauge," which means "gauge" is the preferred spelling in publishing. (You're having rather a losing day today, aren't you, JBJ? And you never have a citation for your off-the-wall calls. Perhaps you should just stop pretending to know what you don't know.)

(Now it's time for you to irrelevantly call me names or make some other nonsensical crack.)

 

[redzinger]

I currently have greengages in my garden. They are rather delicious.




(In answer to the OP, it depends on your writing style.)

 

[karaline]

I currently have greengages in my garden. They are rather delicious.

I love greengages.

I had a quick google, according to the internet (and we all know what a reliable tool that is when your looking for factually correct information) its one of those awkward words that can be spelled either way. I can't pretend I was aware of this though, I can't actually spell (see my signature). I am attempting to write in British English, my spell check is american (can't work out how to change it -even though i am usually quite good at figuring this stuff out) also my editors to date have been American and Canadian. So there you have it.

I'm happy to have spelling mistakes pointed out to me, but I'd like to get back to the original subject, if anyone has any further suggestions, those made so far have been pretty illuminating.

 

[karaline]

I currently have greengages in my garden. They are rather delicious.

Oh, you're in London too? Well hello delicious greengage grower!

 

[sr71plt]

I had a quick google, according to the internet (and we all know what a reliable tool that is when your looking for factually correct information) its one of those awkward words that can be spelled either way. I can't pretend I was aware of this though, I can't actually spell (see my signature). I am attempting to write in British English, my spell check is american (can't work out how to change it -even though i am usually quite good at figuring this stuff out) also my editors to date have been American and Canadian. So there you have it.

*sigh* another wrench in the works. Looking up things on the Internet doesn't make you an expert or your resulting guidance good. Publishing does NOT fall in with "spell words either way." Publishing cares more about a standardized read by readers/buyers than it does about the personal preferences of authors. When you post a story to Literotica you are engaging in publishing. The dictionary authorities of publishers specify what the preferred spelling of a word is. That's the preferred spelling of publishers, either in the British or the American system. I don't know what the British system gives as a preference, but it doesn't condone "just spell it any way you like." It wants standardized views for the readers/viewers. It's really made the decisions easy for you. Just look it up in the dictionary and take the preferred spelling.

I see thread after thread here claiming that writers are posting stories here to develop their skills and then I see the same folks fully willing not to learn how to to pin down their technical skills for publishing--being casual and thinking that their personal preferences rule. They don't.

Finding how to set the review language depends on the system you have. If you have "tools" on the menu, pull down to "language." If you have "review" on the menu, pull down to "set language." This should give you options, including British English and American English.

 

[Bramblethorn]

'They were going to have sex, she realised, right there on his kitchen counter.'

...

I realised the sentences could manage perfectly well without the bits that I've bolded, and I've wondered if they might be unnecessary and perhaps take the reader out of the flow. But yet unless I'm very conscious of my writing I tend to use these phrases repeatedly, particularly in heated or emotional points in the story. At first I thought it might be a self confidence thing and working from the basis that less words are usually better I've tried to delete them when I see them.

...Until a few days ago, when I was reading about pacing and the author showed two different paragraphs. she used the kind of phrases i'm concerned about in the second example, and suggested they improved the pace of the writing. She only touched on the subject briefly, and I haven't come away feeling like I really understand why she thought the second example was better, but she seemed to be suggesting that these extra phrases made the sentences longer; slowing the reader down -something you might want to do at certain points in your writing.

So now I'm confused

Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

All else being equal, I like to delete superfluous words, but there are certainly times for those constructions.

Yes, sometimes it's about pacing/rhythm of a sentence. I will tweak my stories according to what rhythm feels best to me, but unless I'm writing outright verse, I couldn't tell you what the rules are that govern that; it's instinctive.

But also, a big consideration here is that this construction draws you closer to that character's perspective, pulling the perspective from third-person omniscient to third-person close. It draws the reader's attention to her thoughts and feelings and the limitations of her knowledge. That can make a scene feel more intimate; it's a bit like the cinematic technique of showing a close-up of somebody's face to illustrate their reaction.

 

[karaline]

*sigh* another wrench in the works. Looking up things on the Internet doesn't make you an expert or your resulting guidance good. Publishing does NOT fall in with "spell words either way." Publishing cares more about a standardized read by readers/buyers than it does about the personal preferences of authors. When you post a story to Literotica you are engaging in publishing. The dictionary authorities of publishers specify what the preferred spelling of a word is. That's the preferred spelling of publishers, either in the British or the American system. I don't know what the British system gives as a preference, but it doesn't condone "just spell it any way you like." It wants standardized views for the readers/viewers. It's really made the decisions easy for you. Just look it up in the dictionary and take the preferred spelling.

I see thread after thread here claiming that writers are posting stories here to develop their skills and then I see the same folks fully willing not to learn how to to pin down their technical skills for publishing--being casual and thinking that their personal preferences rule. They don't.

I can see you missed my attempt sarcasm in the brackets there.

Two points: first up, language is a constantly evolving, fluid thing. This does mean that occasionally a word can be spelt in two different ways. I'm sure publishers, dictionary writers and primary school teachers would like to see Gage/Gauge standardised but currently it isn't, informally Gage is the more technical term, making it less suitable for my purposes. But still both can be used interchangeably. I'm fairly confident of this because when I cross referenced them in my dictionary the synonyms matched exactly (I hope this is clear from my screen shots)

Secondly, surely thats the job for the editors? I mean of course we shouldn't be slackers, but we all make mistakes and spell checker doesn't always spot them. I am dyslexic, and I once submitted an entire paper about a randomised controlled trail. My spell checker didn't pick up on it because it is a correctly spelled word, its not the word I was meaning to use but its still a word. Thankfully the editor was more understanding than you seem to be.

 

[TxRad]

I love greengages.

I had a quick google, according to the internet (and we all know what a reliable tool that is when your looking for factually correct information) its one of those awkward words that can be spelled either way. I can't pretend I was aware of this though, I can't actually spell (see my signature). I am attempting to write in British English, my spell check is american (can't work out how to change it -even though i am usually quite good at figuring this stuff out) also my editors to date have been American and Canadian. So there you have it.

I'm happy to have spelling mistakes pointed out to me, but I'd like to get back to the original subject, if anyone has any further suggestions, those made so far have been pretty illuminating.

If you are using word, the spell check language is set with the dictionary you use. Right click on the little book with the red check mark on it at the bottom of the page. There should be a list of dictionaries you can use if you click the dictionary button. In your case select British over American.

 

[sr71plt]

I can see you missed my attempt sarcasm in the brackets there.

Two points: first up, language is a constantly evolving, fluid thing. This does mean that occasionally a word can be spelt in two different ways. I'm sure publishers, dictionary writers and primary school teachers would like to see Gage/Gauge standardised but currently it isn't, informally Gage is the more technical term, making it less suitable for my purposes. But still both can be used interchangeably. I'm fairly confident of this because when I cross referenced them in my dictionary the synonyms matched exactly (I hope this is clear from my screen shots)

Secondly, surely thats the job for the editors? I mean of course we shouldn't be slackers, but we all make mistakes and spell checker doesn't always spot them. I am dyslexic, and I once submitted an entire paper about a randomised controlled trail. My spell checker didn't pick up on it because it is a correctly spelled word, its not the word I was meaning to use but its still a word. Thankfully the editor was more understanding than you seem to be.

Apparently you missed that publishing doesn't work that way. Yes, there's a standard spelling for the verb "gauge." I told you what it was and told you where you found its standardization--and why it was standardized.

No, publishing is not as fluid as you claim on spelling. Word choice, yes, spelling, no. (The exception is that the different publishing systems, e.g., British, U.S., use variant spelling for some words. They still demand consistency within their style, though.)

I'm a professional editor and I gave the guidance on this and cited sources and procedures. And, no, it's not the editor's job to clean up anything you don't want to bother with--if you want to develop as a writer. Editors are supposed to only have to work on the margin, not babysit for your failure to learn the trade.

God, some of you amateurs here are hard headed--and feel compelled to give half-assed opinions on what you have little knowledge of and thus lead others astray.

Here's an essay on how to use a dictionary as a writer: https://www.literotica.com/s/dictionary-smarts-can-up-ratings (not that you will feel the need to actually learn these things.)

 

[HandsInTheDark]

My personal take:

'They were going to have sex, she realised, right there on his kitchen counter.'

"She realised" has to be there because it's the action at hand. But I think I'd have used "she suddenly realised". Now the action conveys more interesting information, to wit that she's in an unexpected situation.


'She noticed he was watching her intently, trying to gage her reaction.'

This seems harmless enough. Again, it's the action at hand. I'd prefer to know her reaction to being watched, though. 'She shivered uncomfortably as she noticed his eyes, locked on her body' or something.


'He watched as she peeled off her latex gloves and slid the top half of her overalls off, tying the sleeves in a knot around her hips she revealing a strappy leopord skin print top.

This is a mess. Even without the grammar mistake ("revealed"?) the sentence is over-laden. Too much is going on and the actor changes from him to her in the same sentence without clear demarcation.

He watched as she slowly peeled off her latex gloves, and swallowed as she tossed them aside with a wicked smile. Next she slid the top half of her overalls down, revealing a strappy and tight top. She arched her back, almost mockingly, and he found he couldn't take his eyes off the hardening nipples the tight cloth outlined.

Not only do we know what's going on, in small, simple sips of information; but we also know this guy is doomed.

 

[karaline]

If you are using word, the spell check language is set with the dictionary you use. Right click on the little book with the red check mark on it at the bottom of the page. There should be a list of dictionaries you can use if you click the dictionary button. In your case select British over American.

I've done this a few times, it just doesn't seem to work. I can still see spell check highlighting my english spelling as a mistake and I know for all the stuff I can see there must also be lots of stuff I'm missing. I must remember when I'm actually around someone who knows mac books to ask them too take a look.

(not that you will feel the need to actually learn these things.)

That's an interesting accusation to make sr71plt, I initially started this thread because I had a question, a question that I asked because yes I do want to learn things. Its notable that your response to that question was minimal and yet you've devoted paragraphs to tearing strips of me for my spelling. Last night I was alone for the first time in weeks and had a brief window of opportunity to get some work done on my current WIP. I spent far more of it than I care to admit reading definitions for the word gage/gauge and feeling irate because your responses to my points have pushed my buttons. Ultimately this is my fault, I chose to spend my time in an pointless argument with a random on the internet instead of using my time more productively, but I have to say that I lurk on this group on the most part, I often have questions I'd like to ask but I don't because I perceive this place to be hostile and unhelpful. You've confirmed all of my suspicions. I'll think twice before asking another question here.

 

[ElectricBlue]

shameless self promotion

PM sent

EB

 

[karaline]

PM sent

EB

Got it.

And thanks to everyone for your replies, they've been really helpful x

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AH is a modern Old West saloon. Its all gun slingers, gamblers, and dancing girls. Choose your roll carefully.