self censorship

[kinkyretep]

I started this discussion on the general board and I fear it may have been a mistake. It seems they're not really very interested in the ethical and psychological dynamics of writing there. I hope you'll forgive my n00bishness but I though I might repost it here and see if the topic does better.

---1st post---
This is my first thread on this board, in fact I probably wouldn't have made it except that this point started to niggle at me. I've been reading literotica for a fair few years now. Shall we say since well before I was 18 which is more years than I prefer to admit. Over the years I've noticed something. Occasionally I would read a story and return to re read it on a whim and be unable to find it. I usually wrote it off as me not looking properly or getting mixed up but not that long ago, well 2005 so yes a while ago, I went back to a story being able to remember its proper title but could not find it. It wasn't terribly offensive, not by literotica standards. A story of 3 girls who decide to get revenge on the virgin who is marrying their ex by befriending her and arranging her rape at the bacholoret party. There was a sequel that also disappeared about her getting her revenge by having one of these girls, a white racist, raped by 3 well endowed black men. I found it odd so I did a little digging, apparently it was her 1st 2 try's at a non consent story and it made her uncomfortable, it was at her own behest that the stories were removed.

I can relate to this some what my self. The 1st erotic story I wrote as a teenage boy I deleted latter in a fit of adolescent guilt. I quite regret it now to be honest. It seems very harmless now. A little light bondage and food sex.

The question I would pose to you. Self censorship, is it ever a good idea? Especially after the fact when you've already put it out there for the great unwashed to read? I recall certain incidences of popular authors quitting the site to move on, we hope, to bigger and better things and taking their stories down in the process. The out cry was such that they re posted what they considered to be the best of their work and after this people were still putting in requests and offering to swap zip archives of her work that they'd saved. In theory you can never physically force the suppression of your work once its in circulation.

But why would you want to? What's your verdict. Is killing a bad story to be compared to sparing the world a monster or is it comparable to killing the bastard child you're to ashamed to own up to?

---42nd post---

While it's virtually impossible to fully repress a work once it's been out there, other reasons may have impact on such a decision: if they get taken on by a hardcopy publisher, it may be part of the deal that all internet copies are removed prior to publication - this also means taking care about cached pages which can linger and cause problems; also if the author goes on to write in other genres that would be 'tainted' by any connection they have with semi-pornographic writing. In most instances, a publisher's looking for original and previously unpublished work, wihch includes publication on an internet site, and an author might need to take that work down before submitting elsewhere. Sometimes the decision may be a personal one, such as some you've touched upon, and sometimes they really will have been removed where an author has improved so much they then find their early works embarrassing shambles that ought to have been drowned at birth or even never conceived.

In this particular case I do not believe the author published, nor was it the quality of writing per se that led her to remove it. You see at the time I could more or less remember the name, either of the author or the story I'm not sure, and was able to track down, I think probably on this forum or it forerunner, a section she wrote about why it was removed. Something to do with being uncomfortable with its content. Actually if any one can remember that post it might be germane to link it.

The reason I went back a few months later to check on that particular story (aside from the fact it was a 4 part series with 2 episodes pending) was its content. I an interest in the psychology of female sex offenders. Now if you go on to google scholar you'll find many psychological papers about pedophile female sex offenders or incidence of statutory rape, you'll also find tons of statistics. However what you won't find are psychological case studies of women who have committed or been accomplices in rape perpetrated upon sexually mature individuals. They just don't seem to exist in the same way they do for male rapists.

So here was this story about 3 women premeditating, planing and executing the rape of a 4th woman and vicariously and voyeuristically enjoying it. A story that was its self written by a woman. I thought it might be worth another read. However I'm fairly sure (because as I said I have this vague memory of a forum post) the very reasons it was interesting to me is probably why she deleted it. I believe having written and published a story and a sequel she squicked at her own work.

If you feel uncomfortable with the moralistic tones of this discussion consider the question put this way instead. Is it good practice to publish something that makes you squick. And if you only find something squicks you reading it a few months latter is it good practise to deny that author that you used to be who dreamt up the squicking material in the past.

PS: actually I think I remember the title now. I think it was something like unwelcome help or unwanted assistance ... or maybe unasked for gift ... not sure.
PPS: Actually I'm 90% sure now it was called unrequested help.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You've obviously decided that these women had no right to take your fun away from you.

Good luck with that.

 

[sr71plt]

There's no telling why the author took it down (you're even making assumptions that it was a female author), but none of this relates to censorship. If the author wanted to delete it for any reason whatsoever, there it is then. Beyond that, it's a little amusing to talk of consulting a Lit. story as psychological research because you couldn't find any clinical studies on what the Lit. story dealt with. Huh? This is fiction--probably whipped up completely from the imagination.

 

[kinkyretep]

I'm working from memory its true but that's not the same as an assumption. I do tend to check the profiles of writers of any story that catches my eye. That and there is this memory of this discussion (which I freely admit I can not find) as to why it was removed. You may not consider that very reliable but that's not the same as assumption.

Personally it is precisely because it is the fruit of the imagination that it becomes interesting. It is her interpretation of why and how a female sexual abuser might offend. Drawn from her own psych as a woman.

You've obviously decided that these women had no right to take your fun away from you.

Good luck with that.

Now that's a little unfair. I'll admit there is a part of me that is always annoyed when I can't find something I expect to be there, on or off line. But I'm equally annoyed with my self for not having the presence of mind to save it. Nowadays if I see anything I think I might want to refer to on line, be it stories or a news article, I save it.

I'm genuinely interested in discussing this. However the emphasis is on discussion there. What I want to avoid is a shouting match of platitudes with no real content. That is what the thread in general looked like it was becoming. I would have thought people here would be interested in the ramifications of hating or other wise disliking your own work. There are those who would class it as a form of self loathing, and perhaps by extension the destruction of your work self abuse.

I'm curious as to why some one would ever chose to delete something they'd been ok with publishing a few months before out of a dislike for the content (as opposed to the writing style). The only explanation I can dream up is some sort of life changing epiphany.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm curious as to why some one would ever chose to delete something they'd been ok with publishing a few months before out of a dislike for the content (as opposed to the writing style). The only explanation I can dream up is some sort of life changing epiphany.

For lots of reasons, including you didn't think it was written well, or you sold it to someone demanding you take it off the Internet, or you don't like seeing the criticism it's getting, or your mother found it on your computer and won't let you out of your bedroom until it's toast.

I don't get what you are getting at--or why we should care why an author takes his/her work down.

If they take it down because it now disgusts them, so what? They don't owe anything to the reader concerning what they choose to do with what they wrote.

 

[evanslily]

I'm curious as to why some one would ever chose to delete something they'd been ok with publishing a few months before out of a dislike for the content (as opposed to the writing style). The only explanation I can dream up is some sort of life changing epiphany.

Well, the thing is, you're never going to know. Sure, you can speculate. Life changing epiphany, yep, maybe. Someone rumbles your Lit identity - like your boss? Yep, maybe.

I don't know that you're going to get many answers, to be honest. The vast majority of Lit authors never come here to the Authors' Hangout and I'm willing to bet that of those who do, most haven't deleted a work for the reasons you've identified. Some pull stories for publication elsewhere occasionally or because a particular story isn't as good as they'd like it to be.

 

[sr71plt]

Nope, never have pulled a story (and nearly all of them are sold, some more than once--so that's not a blanket reason either). Can't imagine doing so short of having the sheriff show up at my door, or one of my good friends saying, "Hey, wait a minute--that's me." I'm counting on none of my good friends even knowing Lit. exists.

 

[kinkyretep]

For lots of reasons, including you didn't think it was written well, or you sold it to someone demanding you take it off the Internet, or you don't like seeing the criticism it's getting, or your mother found it on your computer and won't let you out of your bedroom until it's toast.

I don't get what you are getting at--or why we should care why an author takes his/her work down.

If they take it down because it now disgusts them, so what? They don't owe anything to the reader concerning what they choose to do with what they wrote.

ok I did mention my reasons for thinking why it was removed for that reason. For the sake of argument can we assume that so? Given the topic here is self censorship not publisher or indeed mother censorship.

And doesn't it bug you? Doesn't it seem like a very odd way to behave? Are you not just a little bit curious why some one would delete their own work in revulsion?

I don't know that you're going to get many answers, to be honest. The vast majority of Lit authors never come here to the Authors' Hangout and I'm willing to bet that of those who do, most haven't deleted a work for the reasons you've identified. Some pull stories for publication elsewhere occasionally or because a particular story isn't as good as they'd like it to be.

Yet I have this firm memory of reading something from the author her self about the removal. ... Is there anywhere else she could have written it aside from here?

Also I did a brief search of this forum. Maybe not nowerdays but in 2005 there was this thread which did seem to indicate some people were thinking of pulling work.

 

[sr71plt]

For the sake of argument can we assume that so?

Ummm. no, not me. You may not have anything better to do than obsess over this; I do.

And doesn't it bug you? Doesn't it seem like a very odd way to behave? Are you not just a little bit curious why some one would delete their own work in revulsion?

No, not really. Seems minutia to me. This is the point, I think, when I go off to see if you've actually posted any stories here and therefore have an oar in the water at all.

Most of the people I've seen pull work here did so because they were trying an unsuccesful power play. "Either the site adminsiters do A, or I'm pulling my brilliant work."

 

[kinkyretep]

I'll save you the trouble. It's all on my hard drive. I only saw fit to sign up today.

I'm quite sure it wasn't a power play. The rest of her other non non consent stories weren't removed. Although I've no idea if she's still on the site or if she's removed them but they lingered on for a while after she removed those 2 stories.

 

[oggbashan]

I have never deleted a story. I have edited one drastically after the comments showed that I had fucked it up by simple mistakes I ought to have spotted myself but that's it.

Perhaps I ought to delete some of my earlier stories. I couldn't write them now because I have developed as a writer (of fiction) since then. I leave them up to remind me how much I have changed as a writer.

That doesn't mean that my more recent stories are necessarily better. They're just different and I can still write a bad story now as I did then. If I wanted to publish my stories in a book I would select some and reject others.

Since it is free for me to post as many stories as I want on Literotica and is also free for the readers I don't feel any obligation to reduce my posted stories to just those that I consider my "best".

I can understand why someone would want to remove their stories. I expect that the most likely reason is that there has been a change in their real life situation which means that having stories on Literotica could be a serious embarrassment.

Og

 

[DeeZire]

On the missing rape stories - one factor could be LIT's aversion to rape. Rape stories do get through, but it seems to be a gray area. If the rapist is enjoying the proceedings and the victim isn't, this kind of story could get flagged and deleted.

Another factor is growth. Many writers come here as beginners. As they get better at their craft, they recognize shoddy writing, and perhaps feel less enthused about sharing their early works that no longer hold up. This is not a life-changing epiphany, it's just artistic maturation.

 

[kinkyretep]

Gentlemen I must apologise. I have found the author of the 2 stories in question and it was not indeed a woman. It was msboy8. I guess time can even distort my memory. (I'm assuming I thought ms stood for miss) I can not find the reference to his reasons for removing it but proof of its existence can be found here. I still can't understand his reasons for removing it and I found it interesting enough to re read but as the author is no longer posting here I guess I'm not going to find out. I wouldn't say that makes this a closed topic (please note most of his stories are still online) but one that is not likely to be satisfactorily concluded. ... so ...

 

[driphoney]

Okay, I'll bite ...

I've considered taking my story down. And it's not even finished yet. And I still might someday.

Why?

Not because I'm ashamed of any perversion I've put in it. If anything, just the opposite. Even though I've gotten some really special feedback and very little criticism--though the competitor in me would love much better scores---it was just an attempt to do something I'd never done before, and I was frustrated by the lack of black male/white female romance non-gang-bang type stories. Frankly, I don't think it's that good. Also, it's fairly light on the sex and heavy on the story and the story, in my opinion, is just so-so, the sex less than.

It's my story; I basically wrote it for myself, as do most Lit writers. I don't get paid to share it and, if I decide to hide it back on my hard drive, so be it. Easy come, easy go. It doesn't mean there's anything deep or psychological going on. A few years ago I decided to paint a room black and gray and white. People get to see, some even enjoy it; others do not. Now I'm growing a bit tired of it and thinking of changing it. Now, another person may find they painted a room and had a violent reaction to it and with emotion and feeling turned around and immediately repainted it, then had to call a therapist to work out why. But is that normal or usual?

Maybe everyone here is centered enough that their writing brings them pleasure and growth and hasn't devolved into the kind of angst-filled guilt ridden situation you're hoping to discuss. Maybe somebody will come along.

 

[driphoney]

Another factor is growth. Many writers come here as beginners. As they get better at their craft, they recognize shoddy writing, and perhaps feel less enthused about sharing their early works that no longer hold up. This is not a life-changing epiphany, it's just artistic maturation.

You beat me. And, as a better writer, epitomized the phrase, "less is more".

 

[kinkyretep]

Actually it looks like all he left was poetry. his score card was full of so much more ... I wonder if in the end he did publish. If so i'd like to know where. still I'm sure those 2 stories did disappear in an isolated incident though. Really I'd rather they didn't since they might be published some where but i'm guessing it ain't so.

Even so I may message him. See if he ever did publish those 2 stories.

 

[poppy_cock]

He left in 2005. http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=373500

In his signature line (don't know if you've got siggies turned on) it just says that he's leaving for 'greener pastures'. I s'pose that could mean he was disgusted by his own stories.

Personally, I think it sounds more like he got bored and left.

Okay?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This is an interesting topic. I think it speaks to how seriously we take ourselves and our material, and how much we respect our readers.

I've deleted stories. And I think the main reason is that writing for me is essentially about communication, and communication is a binary process: (A) You do the best job you can of saying what you want to say, and (B) Readers decipher what you've said and understand it according to their own lights.

I can control (A). I'm never sure about (B) until the story's out there and the responses come trickling in.

I don't like being misunderstood. I don't like for people to understand a story in a way different from what I intended. That takes the control away from me as an artist, and gives it to God knows whom, so it's not art anymore; it's happenstance. You're story's not what you intended. You've failed to communicate. Why would I want to leave a failure up?

Case in point: I wrote an Earth Day story several years ago based on the Asian tsunami that took so many lives that very same year. The story was supposed to be about how people reach out to each through sex when all other norms of human intercourse are destroyed. I knew it would be a tricky write, and when people started complaining about the tastelessness and exploitative nature of the story, I decided I'd missed my mark and I pulled it. I really didn't want necrophiliacs beating off to my story of love amidst the ruins.

It's not always possible to say just what you intended a story to communicate. But it is pretty easy to tell when you've failed to hit the mark. When people are snickering at a story, or turning away in disgust, and that story was not intended to be either funny or gastricly challenging, then you've lost control of your material.

For some people, that's okay. Any collection of words on a page is good enough for them, and they apparently measure success by the linear foot. But if you care about your craft, you've got to get both parts of that equation right.

So I don't think it necessarily takes some life-changing epiphany to cause someone to pull a story. Just a steady rise in the output on the crapometer.

 

[JamesSD]

Literotica is littered with abandoned story serials. Even if an author doesn't pull a story, many authors find they no longer have the time or spark to continue a series. They may move onto other things elsewhere or under a different name. In the most ideal situation, they find for-pay work that pulls them away from their work here.

If you like a story, download it. If a novel here you enjoy is unfinished, you can send the author encouraging praise (but don't demand it get done faster, that never helps), but really you can only cross your fingers and hope it gets finished.

People pull stories for a variety of reasons, ultimately personal, many unknowable.

 

[lisettepourtoi]

Am I wrong to write these stories?

I've recently begun writing stories after reading Literotica for several years. Most of the feedback I've received has been positive, some of it poorly written requests for stories, and then tonight I got an email that basically accused me of having done the things I wrote about in my story. (You can read my submissions at http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=1123197&page=submissions )

The story I've been writing, "The Wedding Gift," is in Taboo and BDSM, about an 18 year old woman who is "given" to her new stepfather as a sex slave. She gets pleasure out of the things he does, and does not try to get away. The email I received likened it to the kidnapper who was caught last week with the now-grown woman he abducted and her daughters who he fathered. The emailer than proceeded to warn me that non-medical doctors wouldn't be bound not to share my dark secrets should I go to seek help for my perversions.

I've rationalized my interest in bdsm and incest and non-consent/reluctance stories as indulging in fantasies. Especially as I do not have a boyfriend, it's a way to explore my sexuality on my own. The difference between fantasies of sex slavery and the reality is that when I read those stories, I see myself with a (very cute) guy who I've asked to play this game with me. The reality is something far worse than anyone could every even attempt to make sexy, let alone arousing.

Sorry if this is sort of rambling, but I feel conflicted since reading that email. Do I as a writer have a responsibility to write of only clearly consensual sex, to combat the rape culture ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture ), or should I feel free and guiltless to write about my dark fantasies?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Hmmm

I'm not so sure that self humilation over a piece of shit story isn't a good thing occasionally. It tends to keep your head its proper size.

That's why I never remove any of the crap I've written.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

You know I like acceptinjg most of what is writen here as fantasy. If I tried to anolize it all and see rapist in the fiction I'd probably go crazy. I've no doubt most of us could write a passable rape scene, or even worst, violent rape revenge scene. We are artist. Poe, King, many others are better then us at large. Does that make them sociopaths? Depends who you ask. Naive me wants to enjoy her fiction and ignore the possibility I may be reading any real life accounts. So sue me. I'm a selfish, self indulgent bitch.

Why try and look too deep into it? If your life isn't exciting, write it better.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

You know I like acceptinjg most of what is writen here as fantasy. If I tried to anolize it all and see rapist in the fiction I'd probably go crazy. I've no doubt most of us could write a passable rape scene, or even worst, violent rape revenge scene. We are artist. Poe, King, many others are better then us at large. Does that make them sociopaths? Depends who you ask. Naive me wants to enjoy her fiction and ignore the possibility I may be reading any real life accounts. So sue me. I'm a selfish, self indulgent bitch.

Why try and look too deep into it? If your life isn't exciting, write it better.

Don't write RAPE. You get death threats. Trust my experience.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Don't write RAPE. You get death threats. Trust my experience.

Serious damn. This place seemed pretty open minded to me.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Serious damn. This place seemed pretty open minded to me.

There are very strange people here. Occasionally, an honest story is written that strikes a nerve with them and shit happens. But think about it. A death threat on LIT? Like what are they really going to do? Throw darts at their computer monitors? ROFL