Segregating a series of items

[CopperSkink]

One thing I can't seem to come to terms with anyone on is the use of commas in a series of items. I was taught that when you listed things in a sentence, you had commas here, here, and there. Anyone lately will tell me you only need one here, here and nowhere else. But that conveys a different meaning, no?
In the first example, there are clearly three items up for sale. Two of them "here", and one "there." In the second, you have for sure one "here", while there may be only one or as many as two items following in "here and nowhere else."
I first asked the question in what must have been sixth grade or so, wondering how to list shows on Nickalodian (however the fuck it spells; I can't spell to save your life so don't ask). There was Rugrats, that one camping show, the one where slime got poured on unsuspecting victims, and so on. Then there's a new problem: Ren and Stimpy. In the process of making a list, there's already an "and" at the end. Am I supposed to put a comma? No? We're left with three options: "Rugrats, the camping show, the slime show, Ren, and Stimpy." In that format, Ren and Stimpy are two different shows. Let's try again.
"Rugrats, the camping show and Ren and Stimpy." Again, it's hard to discern that Ren and Stimpy are one show because there's no isolation from the previous item.
A third time: "Rugrats, the camping show (or summer camp; sixth grade was a long time ago), and Ren and Stimpy." At last we have cohesion, however it's spelled.
Yet there are still discrepencies, like what if the three items are all one word each? "Sticks, canes and video games." Obviously it's not difficult to see that there are three distinct items (though obviously "video games" isn't one word like I was suposed to be using), because why else would there be a comma between sticks and canes? What if we have four or more items?
Candles, wine, flowers and dinner. Is flowers and dinner one item, or two? It may be that we already have candles and wine at home, and flowers and dinner is a single item because we have to go shopping for it. Let's make it even more difficult.
Invite your mom and dad, your brother and your sister, your cousin and your uncle and your aunt. Now what? "Mom and dad" are clearly one item as are "brother and sister". After that? Cousin and uncle and aunt may be one item, or it may be three. Does that mean I have to make one phone call, two, or three? It's like calling your aunt and uncle's house. It belongs to both of them, so by the rules it should be aunt's and uncle's, but common English allows for your aunt and your uncle to be listed as a compound entity entitled "aunt and uncle", with the posessive 'S being tacked on to the very end rather than distributed to every individual listed. You wouldn't call "Ben and Jerry's" "Ben's and Jerry's" because the name of the company is "Ben and Jerry's", even if it sounds like there are names because it's one single business name.
So there we have it. Are we supposed to be lax about the comma for the final item so long as it doesn't muss up the intention? Half the time I have to call my authors specially just to see if I caught their meaning because they don't believe in adding it.
Yes?
No?

 

[Darkniciad]

Might I suggest some paragraph spacing? *laugh*

I'm of the mind that I still use that final comma all the time. It just eliminates any potential "huh?" moments.

For your one specific example, you can solve the Ren and Stimpy problem by enclosing the actual names of the shows in quotes, single quotes, or italics. That groups them as single items in the eye. How correct that is by the authorities, I can't say, but it works for me from a readability standpoint.

 

[CopperSkink]

May be that my education is too dated to get that far. I know about italicising or underlining books, but television shows is too far beyond my ken.
Paragraphs only look nasty because they're so wide.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I've edited stories for writers that have gone both ways. One writer using commas in all places, a different one not. I don't think either is incorrect. I usually suggest using commas where it improves the flow of a story. If I find myself backing up to reread something that's a good indicator something is amiss. Personally, I like the commas there, but that's just me.

 

[Darkniciad]

Paragraphs only look nasty because they're so wide.

It's wall-o-text to me. Print paragraphing simply doesn't work on a computer screen. Your eyes get lost too easily without frequent "whitespace" to serve as bookmarks. Shrinking it down doesn't really help.

[tr][td]One thing I can't seem to come to terms with anyone on is the use of commas in a series of items. I was taught that when you listed things in a sentence, you had commas here, here, and there. Anyone lately will tell me you only need one here, here and nowhere else. But that conveys a different meaning, no?
In the first example, there are clearly three items up for sale. Two of them "here", and one "there." In the second, you have for sure one "here", while there may be only one or as many as two items following in "here and nowhere else."
I first asked the question in what must have been sixth grade or so, wondering how to list shows on Nickalodian (however the fuck it spells; I can't spell to save your life so don't ask). There was Rugrats, that one camping show, the one where slime got poured on unsuspecting victims, and so on. Then there's a new problem: Ren and Stimpy. In the process of making a list, there's already an "and" at the end. Am I supposed to put a comma? No? We're left with three options: "Rugrats, the camping show, the slime show, Ren, and Stimpy." In that format, Ren and Stimpy are two different shows. Let's try again.
"Rugrats, the camping show and Ren and Stimpy." Again, it's hard to discern that Ren and Stimpy are one show because there's no isolation from the previous item.
A third time: "Rugrats, the camping show (or summer camp; sixth grade was a long time ago), and Ren and Stimpy." At last we have cohesion, however it's spelled.[/td][td]***********************************[/td][/tr]

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... I was taught that when you listed things in a sentence, you had commas here, here, and there. ...

The use of the "Oxford comma" is a vexed question, and has been for many years. I recall the arguments for and against being explained to me in school almost 60 years ago.

There are times when it is necessary to distinguish the "and" as part of the list delineating the last entry as opposed to simple part of a noun phrase:

"What is for tea?"
"We have cold meat, salad, bread and butter."

Versus

"We have cold meat, salad, and all the usual."

My advice to authors was also given to me many years ago:

To find where you need commas, just read it aloud. Where you pause for a moment, put a comma. Where you pause for a little longer, put a full stop. Where you pause for breath, put a new paragraph.

 

[CopperSkink]

Best advice I've heard all day, and this is a day in which a guy told me to put your dog in the flatbed of your pickup rather than in the cab when he hasn't shat yet (he's saying this as he's scooping dogshit out of his flatbed).

Vexes me that "bread and butter" should be one item, during which there's no "and" leading off the final item in a list of three or more, but I know damn well that the author has the perogitive of calling them two seperate items and is awkwardly correct. Emphasis on awkwardly.

If I were to say such a thing aloud, it would be "...and bread'n butter" but of course just because that case of being able to replace "and" with " 'n " doesn't help us in things like "Ren and Stimpy" or "Beavis and Butthead". To be an orthodox writer making everything as clear as possible, I'd write "...and bread with butter". And yet we're writing fiction, which is an example of how people talk opposed to what may or may not be in the Big Book of Writing. If it doesn't sound natural, the reader flinches.

And yes, white space does help the eyes. It's been a while since I was on the yearbook staff when I got taught these things, see.

 

[sr71plt]

That comma before the conjunction in a series ("red, white, and chartreuse") is called the serial comma or the Oxford comma. It's true that its taught as a matter of choice in high school and college English classes in the States. Every U.S. publisher I've worked for has specified using it, though, to have absolute clarity for the read on how the sentences works. The Chicago Manual of Style "strongly recommends" using it (6.19).

It's not used when each element is separated by a conjunction, though ("red and white and puce") (CMS 6.20)

 

[glynndah]

I tutor kids in grade school English. While that last comma: one, two, three, and four used to be optional {way back when}, the latest series of textbooks for the sixth grade set makes it mandatory, i.e., one, two, three, and four.

So, that series would be Catdog, Two Angry Beavers, Rugrats, and Ren and Stimpy.

There. Are the waters muddy enough for you yet?

 

[PeterFrancisM]

It seems to depend on the house rules that a given publisher sets up. Mine won't accept the Oxford comma, which is a bugger, because, it just appears automatically when I type. I have to go over my text even befoe submitting it to avoid making my editor grumpy.

Peter

 

[sr71plt]

It seems to depend on the house rules that a given publisher sets up. Mine won't accept the Oxford comma, which is a bugger, because, it just appears automatically when I type. I have to go over my text even befoe submitting it to avoid making my editor grumpy.

Peter

What publishing house is that? I've never encountered a mainstream publisher that didn't use the serial comma.

I could conceive of a scientific publisher that wouldn't use it--but even the standard editorial manual for the sciences, the APA manual, specifies using it (3.02).

 

[CopperSkink]

Catdog was well after my time, unfortunately.

I try to invoke the almighty powers of logic and clarity when I write. Without the serial comma, there's too much ambiguity that could be settled easily enough by adding it. Once (and only once) I had one author (English) insist on witholding it, citing style. Being the editor, there's nothing I can do apart from letting him have his way or else changing it without asking for permission. Garg.