Salvation or Damnation???

[ShynCarolina]

On another thread I saw two things I thought I would never see on this board 1) Someone complained about the lack of argument inducing threads & 2) Lasher actually agreed with Flagg on something (having read so many of Lasher's posts...I can almost feel the pain where he had to do it).

I figured that since I have seen some very good religious discussions here that it would be a perfect place to ask my question.

As a child in Sunday School I was taught that all you had to do was believe in Jesus and you would be saved. No matter what else you did, what sins you committed, you could never lose that salvation.

However, for whatever reasons, a person chooses to commit suicide, then they have broken one of the 10 commandments;"Thou shalt not kill". I have been told that some denominations view suicide as a sin that automatically dooms ones soul to rot in hell.

Question is: If you have accepted Jesus as you are taught as a child in Sunday School (the salvation) is suicide covered by that or does it outweigh it (the damnation)?

Let the discussion/arguments/flames begin

 

[*Eve*]

I was raised to believe that when you sin you can only be forgiven if you ask the Lord for forgivenes. I believe that he will forgive you of anything if you just ask and one sin is no greater than the other, but as far as suicide, there is no asking for forgiveness once you are gone. He can't forgive you if you can't ask for it. That's just my belief and I'm sure I'll get flack for it, but I'm sticking to it.

 

[Jonas]

I believe that if your a Christian and have Jesus in your heart, suicide would be impossible. It is only when you have lost God, or don't have the faith you profess that such despair can overcome you.

 

[Bigdog]

I'm looking forward to reading all the responses this thread gets. My wife's father committed suicide 14 years ago and she is still traumatized by the memories. She was raised in a Christian faith and has never resolved whether he was "allowed" into Heaven. My answer has always been "Yes", I believe the circumstances leading up to his death (cirrosis and/or liver cancer) and his sincere attempt to shield his family from the pain of watching him waste away would grant him forgiveness from any merciful Deity. He had no way of knowing that his actions would completely destroy the family and send them spiraliing into the abyss of depression.

I have great respect for the opinions voiced on this BB and salute you for speaking your minds openly.

 

[Jonas]

Big Dog, your father-in-law is most definitely in heaven.
I don't see that situation as suicide at all. I don't think that there are any hard rules to God's mercy.

 

[CreamyLady]

I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and was taught that suicide was a mortal sin: despair, the denial of God, and His gift of hope and life.

That's not a very comforting thought for those left behind after someone commits suicide, particularly when there has clearly been horrendous suffering involved and one knows the decision was not made lightly.

Now, I try to understand where it came from, what kind of suffering there was, and turn my attention to the grieving family and friends. In my view, the victim is at peace, but those left behind need compassion and care.

As for salvation and damnation, well, I'm not equipped to deal with that. I no longer consider myself Christian. However, I will ask this question: what hell could possibly be worse than a life one is desperate to end?

 

[ShynCarolina]

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.

*Eve*: Is this request for forgiveness like confession to a priest that Catholics do or something as simple as asking in prayer? I was brought up in a non-denominational church that told us as children that we only had to ask for that forgiveness once and we were covered forever and ever. If you ask for forgiveness after that first acceptance of Christ, is that more of a way of reaffirming your faith versus gaining forgiveness for your "new" sins???

Jonas: What about situations such as depression that are physical imbalances more so than a lack of faith?

Bigdog: I feel that there is a special grace that God gives to those who are suffering and that your wife's father is definitely being cared for in heaven. I think that in cases of suffering where an individual can coherently decide on their own, that it is not really suicide. Its a shame that families and loved ones have to live on with the stigma of suicide after a situation like that.

CreamyLady: I thought the Catholics were the ones that I had heard viewed it as a mortal sin. I completely agree that it is those left behind who a hard time of it. With the doubts and questions of what they did or didn't do.... Only they are magnified in a situation where there is no apparent physical suffering and the person seemingly kills themselves for no good reason. As for hell being worse, I guess it depends on what you're brought up to believe hell is (fire/brimstone and burning forever or the solitary despair that was in the movie "What Dreams May Come")

Thanks again for your thoughts

 

[Siren]

 

[Endlessly]

My mother was Irish Catholic, my dad's a bastard, and my "adopted" dad, my pastor, just did a funeral service for a guy who blew his brains out.

His answer, and one I agree with:

You don't know.

The 'unforgivable' sin talked about in the Bible is blasphemy of the holy spirit, and it's hotly debated whether suicide falls into that category. If not, then the question is no longer CAN the sin be forgiven.. But did the person WANT forgiveness.

Did they repent in the split second before the bullet ended the thought process? Did they ask God to forgive them before the rope cut off all circulation to the brain?

We don't know. We weren't there inside the thought processes.

Not comforting, not damning, but it's the only answer I have.

 

[ShyGuy68]

I honestly don't believe in god like they teach in Christianity. And I because of that I don't believe in heaven and hell either.

I do however respect that people have a belief, and I don't mind it at all, unless they start to try and convert me. In my opinion there is just to much proof that the human beings evolved over millions of year, and wasn't created. I once asked a christian if it wasn't possible that the humans had been created to evolve, but he said that god wouldn't create an nonperfect human. I was to young to discuss it further with him, but have several other points to make if I ever get into that discussion again.

Now back to the topic, if a christian is going to commit suicide, and ask forgivness before he do it, maybe he will get into heaven. But well you just don't know.


ShyGuy

 

[Xander]

I have to back Shyguy on this one. I too don't believe in Christianity as the bible teach it.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that there is some kind of intelligense out there, looking over us all.
Now when that is said, I believe that you can only be forgiven for your sins in what you do in your life. meaning you try to make it good again.
As far as the heaven and hell question goes. Well I simply don't know. I have no idea what happens after you leave this world. Nor do I have any beliefs about it. As far as I know, when you're dead you're dead. However I do believe that death is supposed to be a release and not a punishment.

As for the suicide question. It's too complex for me to give an answer to that.

If I blow myself away, will I go to hell? I don't know.
If I ask for forgiveness the moment I pull the tricker, will I go to heaven? I don't know.
Does the bible tell the truth and nothing but the truth? I don't know.
Is the bible the best selling novel in history? I don't know.

There are just too many aspects in religion. Too many questions and too many humanly uncomprehendable things in it.
I don't even wanna try to make sense of it. because I know I can't.

 

[Laurel]

Here's a hypothetical for ya... You have two people: the first is a dyed-in-the-wool nonbeliever - someone who denies the existence of a god. He donates their time to helping others, brightens the lives of all around them, is a loving & devoted spouse, and doesn't even get a parking ticket.

The second person spent the first 30 or so years of their life as a drug-dealing, womanizing criminal who's beaten and raped women. He's cheated on his spouse, had children out of wedlock, and is just an all-around bad example of humanity. He's now in jail, and has "found" Jesus.

Here's what bothers me: when I talk to my Christian friends, they tell me that the first person will not be entered into the kingdom of Heaven, whereas the rapist/philanderer/criminal will. Because the latter has faith, and that's all that matters in their view. You see those specials on jail and see all those evil violent criminals taking up religion all of a sudden, and all those Christians praising these criminals for "seeing the light" and it just irks me! These same Christians who would snub a non-believer - or even a believer of another faith - will gladly kiss ass to evil so long as it joins their club!

So beyond the irrationality of it all, beyond the whole factual "is there a God" thing - even if I decided for some reason that I needed to believe, Christianity would not be for me because it's laws are so twisted and subject to interpretation that it's ludicrous. (And if you think I'm wrong, check out http://www.godhatesfags.com - the guy's a minister, and pulls quotes directly from the Old Testament showing that gays are evil and hated by their own creator.)

It doesn't seem, in practice, to reward goodness - only belief. And the Bible itself is so ambiguous and contradictory that everyone sees in it what they want to see. Like the suicide question... Some say that damns you to hell, some say that it doesn't.

Anyhow, sorry for the rant.

 

[Flagg]

I guess the problem is that heaven is so hyped up that if you were to believe everything that's said about it everyone would kill themselves instantly.
Men (the ones who created the whole notion of God) suddenly realised that this could be an almighty flaw in their invented religion so they did what multinationals/governments would do to fix up a loophole - they invented a new clause in the contract - you can't kill yourself.

The whole thing is soooo ludicrous that it amazes me that intelligent people fall for it. By all means have faith but organised religion is a fucking joke. Who the hell do you think organised it??!!

2) Lasher actuallyagreed with Flagg on something (having read so many of Lasher's posts...I can almost feel the pain where he had to do it).

Who the fuck are you?

[Edited by Flagg on 07-14-2000 at 04:05 AM]

 

[Xander]

Looks like your beloved Madam has been busy on here today And as usual. Laurel Do you EVER sleep??

Here's what bothers me: when I talk to my Christian friends, they tell me that the first person will not be entered into the kingdom of Heaven, whereas the rapist/philanderer/criminal will. Because the latter has faith, and that's all that matters in their view. You see those specials on jail and see all those evil violent criminals taking up religion all of a sudden, and all those Christians praising these criminals for "seeing the light" and it just irks me! These same Christians who would snub a non-believer - or even a believer of another faith - will gladly kiss ass to evil so long as it joins their club!

Now here's something that really makes me wanna puke my guts out. It smells a bit too much of fanatics. And the smell reminds me of dead animals in a soap factory. UGH!!!
Are going to tell me that if I go out and rape, molest, kill and then eat small children. I'll be forgiven in the eyes of God, if I find jesus while sitting on deathrow??
is there anybody here but me and Laurel that finds something wrong with this picture.

I guess, in the eyes of the "true" christians, I'll be condemmed to an eternity of pain and suffering right besides the ninth gate of hell.
Ah well. Can't make them all happy.

 

[Flagg]

If heaven is a place full of "true christians" then please show me the way to hell.

BTW have any of you seen The Devil in Miss Jones? Other than being a classic porn film it is also an interesting film about the notion of heaven and hell.

 

[Endlessly]

Gotta love the Christian-bashing. *Wry smile*

You know what? I'm just going to try to answer this question and then I'm going to wander off and leave this thread alone. I don't want a repeat of the Ireland thing because Flagg doesn't realize he's doing what we Christians are blasted for.. Being intolerant. *shaking head*

So much for respectful debate on this issue. And it's a shame.. It looked interesting. But I digress.

Laurel.. That bugged the heck out of me for a long time.. but the thing is, there's no such thing as 'degrees' of sin to God. Holy or unholy, black or white. One of the reasons so many people don't seem to like the Judeo-Christian idea of God is because you're either righteous or you're not.. And if they can handle that, they throw up their hands at the scripture "All your righteousness is as but filthy rags."

Doh.

So what's left? Grace. And grace is open to ALL.. If it weren't, what kind of grace would it be?

I don't know. I've never raped anyone or murdered anyone, but I don't think that just because I spend five days a week in church that means I'm guarenteed to go to heaven. I can give up all of my possessions and help the homeless and the heartsick, but that wouldn't be enough.

Not when you think about the things you keep in your closet, the things you don't wamt anyone to know about. And I'm not talking about this BB, I'm talking about the deeper stuff. The darker stuff. Everyone has it.

My point, to quote Max Lucado: You don't brag about your crayon drawings in the presence of Picasso. You don't show off your paper airplanes to NASA, and you don't think you're on par with Einstein because you can write E=MC2.

Just like you don't brag about your goodness in the presence of the Perfect.

Only a wishy-washy God could be bought by works.. Only an egotistical God could be bought by prayers.. And only a heartless God would sell salvation to the highest bidder.

I wouldn't worship a God who didn't extend His hand to everyone. But I also understand it's everyone's choice whether to take or leave that hand. Heaven, rightly speaking, is eternity with God; forgive me Flagg, but it doesn't sound like you're particularly interested in having all that down time with The Man. You're not interested in Heaven. Why would God shove it down your throat?

Laurel, I don't know what to tell you about the people who will snub non-believers or believers of another faith.. For me, personally, that's never been my policy. And for my pastor and the ministers I associate, it's never been their policy either.. or the policy of my friends. Dunno, maybe it's because one of the main rules of Catholicism (and I was raised by a Catholic mom) is that, if you so much as ENTERTAIN the notion you're better than someone else, you're going to hell.

And I hate to say it, but that alone spells trouble for some people on this board. *wry smile*

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to jump ship on this thread before it gets ugly.

Errrm, uglier.

 

[Deborah]

Holy shit! I'd have to write a book to address all the points raised in this thread. I will, I will, but not now. Work calls.

What's up with all the interest in "religion" lately on this BB? Some of you must think the end of the world is near. It is, it is, the antichrist has arrived on the scene and his name is dave-73.

BTW, Endlessly, that's the direction to look for the unforgivable sin. Yes, you're right, blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. Has to do with the antichrist. I'll explain later.

Who says the threads around here are boring? I find this discussion fascinating.

 

[Triatic]

I personally am an agnostic (fun fact - 'agnostic' is derived from the Latin 'ignoramus')...meaning I don't know what the hell is going on up there, and I sure ain't going to make any hard and fast decisions based on dogma.

They way I see it is this: you gotta come up with your own morality. You're responsible for your own actions. Closest thing to a religious statement I beleive in is the Wiccan philosophy: "An it harm none, do as thou wilt". Sound advice. And I really think that as long as you hold in your heart the desire to do good, without interfering in the rights of others or passing judgement on them, then that'll stand you in good stead when you do meet god, whatever he may be - hairy thunderer or cosmic cream-puff.

That said...we shouldn't be trashing Christianity too harshly. That's just compounding mistakes made along the line.

As to suicide...it's a toughie. I don't think that it's any sort of mortal sin which will consign you to hell for eternity. I don't think anything is, really. If there ARE any consequences, it comes from the pain of those you left behind...

 

[Gaucho]

As someone who was raised Catholic, with my formative years spent in Catholic school pre-Vatican II (that's prior to 1962 for all you neophytes), I have a variety of opinions on the subject. But for the moment, I'll let this suffice: As far as Heaven is concerned, I have to go along with Groucho. I'd never want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.

Wait a minute. I joined this club, didn't I?

 

[ShynCarolina]

Good info

Thanks again for all the feedback. It has definitely raised some very valid points. I am looking very forward to what Deborah's views are and hope that Endlessly doesn't drop out of the thread.

2) Lasher actuallyagreed with Flagg on something (having read so many of Lasher's posts...I can almost feel the pain where he had to do it).

Who the fuck are you?

[Edited by Flagg on 07-14-2000 at 04:05 AM]

No need to get uptight Flagg. Just finished reading your post about the board being boring and Lasher's "Why I hate everyone" post where he mentions having to agree with you. Looks like I suceeded in ending some of the boredom

 

[Enigma777]

Before I reply, I must say that I swear I did not read this thread before I posted my thread "How's this for serious?".

That out of the way, my father committted suicide 3 weeks ago. He was dying of cancer, and, although he never let on, apparently he was in a lot of pain, as explained in the letter he left.

Did he go to Heaven? Hell? I don't know. Even though I am Jewish (And in the minority in that on the board, it seems), I really had know idea what Jews believe. So I asked the rabbi that perfomed my father's service.

I think he could see the answer I wanted in my eyes, but I told him not to pull any punches. He told me that he was probably not in heaven (hey, I asked for it, right?!). And as I was walking away from him, he reached out his hand and touched me on the shoulder and said, "But I know he is in your heart."

And that is true... He is in my heart. But I am left with the question... Is there a heaven and hell? And if you do not beleive in God, are you damnned to burn in hell? What about a man who lives in the deepest jungle of Africa... He has never even heard of God, or religon... but he is a good man. Is he going to hell for the sin of living in a jungle?

I had better stop now... my brain is starting to hurt.

 

[SimplySouthern]

All of these very serious questions...and I can't seem to come up with an answer to any of them.

All I can say is what I believe. I am a child of one REALLY confused marriage. My mother was strictly Southern Baptist and my father was a devout Catholic. They wanted me to choose my own faith and insisted that I go to one service or another, but I was free to choose which one. Can you imagine anything more confusing?

What I learned from that experience is that I am not a fan of organized religion. I belive SOME of what the Catholics preach, and SOME of what the Baptists profess, but not ALL of what any one religion says. I am of the belief that every man and woman has to work out their own salvation (thats in the bible somewhere I think). I don't profess to know all about the ins and outs of what damns you to hell or saves you in God's good graces, but I do know that I am a firm believer in the "Do what feels right as long as you don't hurt others or trample their feelings in the process".

Does this extend to suicide? I don't know. Thats as honest as I can be. I have never had anyone close to me commit suicide, so I'm not sure how I would feel about it.

Just my opinion...feel free to tell me I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, and certainly not the last

 

[Beebeeblue]

I have no answer for that question. Being raised the daughter of a Pentecostal pastor, I was taught that inflicting harm on "God's Temple" was wrong. The temple being us. BUT I had a cousin kill himself not 2 weeks ago, because of the massive depression that had overwhelmed him since his MS had gotten worse. We watched him go from an active member in the community, to a man forced to live in a wheelchair. He couldnt take it anymore, so he ended it. Now I would hate to think that because he 'sped' up things a little, that he is subjected to eternal damnation. I believe that the Lord does have mercy on his people, and understands why we do the things we do.

 

[*Eve*]

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.

*Eve*: Is this request for forgiveness like confession to a priest that Catholics do or something as simple as asking in prayer? I was brought up in a non-denominational church that told us as children that we only had to ask for that forgiveness once and we were covered forever and ever. If you ask for forgiveness after that first acceptance of Christ, is that more of a way of reaffirming your faith versus gaining forgiveness for your "new" sins???

When you ask for forgiveness I believe that it's a request you take directly to good instead of a middle man. I believe that your own personal relationship with good should be between you and him, and not some man sitting in a booth.

 

[Deborah]

I'll answer all these questions. I promise. Tomorrow. Tonight I'm going out to see how many sins I can commit, you know, fornication and such.

BTW, ShyGuy, we already beat that evolution stuff to death two weeks ago over on the "Today is a new beginning (apparently)" thread. You get an "F" dude.