Rules on quoting lyrics?

[ChloeTzang]

Chloe's the secret weapon, mate. Where do you think she got the Oz Rock from in the first place?

Alex will figure it out - a tranny in a Sandman, that's unexpected, but in long tradition - Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, etcetera...

Too right, me old buckaroo. Lol.

Thx Alex, I’m glad that sparked you off. Have to admit, legally, I think Keith nails it. On Literotica, and on Wattpad, I don’t worry about it - altho on Wattpad I often don’t use the lyrics. I just insert a YouTube clip of the actual song. Be nice if you could do that here, then the lyrics argument becomes irrelevant

 

[Thefireflies]

I’m thinking how this affects my idea for “Song for my Story” thingy.

After reading this thread and the other thread, particularly the advice by Vix Giovanni there, plus reading a little extra online, I’m going to pull any lyrics out of my ‘Song for my Story’ story. One or two lines of lyrics here and there added slightly to one or two scenes in my mind, mainly because of how the songs impact me, but removing them won’t take away from the story.
However, it appears story writers are restricted heavily in this area, while other artists of all sorts are borrowing from one another all the time. It’s a shame stories might be devoid of people singing a couple of lines of lyrics at the top of their lungs at gigs, or a lover singing a line or two from a song to a loved one, as many of us do in real life. To me, these details are part of what makes stories more realistic.

As a musician and a songwriter, I’ve had other musicians and bands cover a few of my originals. My understanding is that I have a valid claim to some undetermined portion of any profits someone else might make by playing my song, but I can’t bill them for playing it on a street corner or around a campfire.

This post had me thinking, are musicians playing covers in public settings for money or fun breaking copyright infringement? And what if a busker plays your song on a street corner and also posts it to YouTube and makes money from it? There are many musicians on YouTube singing covers and if they’re not making money there, they often have links to Patreon etc.

But if it made it into a platinum album or the soundtrack of a movie, I’d want some love.

Yes, and if for some reason a story with someone else’s lyrics goes bigtime and makes money, I suppose there is a legit reason to maybe ask for some royalties.

 

[Thefireflies]

Too right, me old buckaroo. Lol.

Thx Alex, I’m glad that sparked you off. Have to admit, legally, I think Keith nails it. On Literotica, and on Wattpad, I don’t worry about it - altho on Wattpad I often don’t use the lyrics. I just insert a YouTube clip of the actual song. Be nice if you could do that here, then the lyrics argument becomes irrelevant

I don’t read on Wattpad, but I’m curious how this works – do you write something like: With the crowd cheering, going absolutely f’n berserk, Chloe stood, walked up to the mic at the front of the stage, and swilling from the bottle of vodka in her hand, she began belting out the lyrics to Cold Chisel’s Khe Sanh.
Does the reader then have a link click on and view the video? If so, that’s a good idea. Better than people having to look it up.

Btw, I looked up buckaroo, and it appears it’s an American term, not Oz…
But then again, Khe Sanh (see link above lol) wasn’t an Aussie thing to be singing about…

 

[ChloeTzang]

I don’t read on Wattpad, but I’m curious how this works – do you write something like: With the crowd cheering, going absolutely f’n berserk, Chloe stood, walked up to the mic at the front of the stage, and swilling from the bottle of vodka in her hand, she began belting out the lyrics to Cold Chisel’s Khe Sanh.
Does the reader then have a link click on and view the video? If so, that’s a good idea. Better than people having to look it up.

Btw, I looked up buckaroo, and it appears it’s an American term, not Oz…
But then again, Khe Sanh (see link above lol) wasn’t an Aussie thing to be singing about…

On Wattpad you can insert an image or videoclip as part of each chapter header and also anywhere in your text. I use a lot more music in Wattpad versions than I do here, it’s a great feature. On the other hand, Wattpad targets a different audience and a huge percentage of them are teenagers who’ve grown up with social multi media.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This post had me thinking, are musicians playing covers in public settings for money or fun breaking copyright infringement?

Music copyright certainly does include public performances. I'm not sure if it works the same way everywhere, but in a lot of places this is covered handled by the venue - if you play at a concert hall, they pay some portion of receipts to an organisation like the Performing Rights Society, which then passes those on to the copyright owners. See e.g. https://www.prsformusic.com/royalties/live-performance-royalties

And what if a busker plays your song on a street corner and also posts it to YouTube and makes money from it? There are many musicians on YouTube singing covers and if they’re not making money there, they often have links to Patreon etc.

Here in Australia, buskers are required to pay for a license. I'm not sure, but I think part of that license fee goes to copyright holders.

Copyright owners can and do go after YouTube performances. Often, rather than requiring that the video be taken down altogether, they'll monetise it instead - YT puts ads on your video, and the copyright owner gets paid out of the advertising revenue. So the performer isn't sending money to the rights owner directly, but there is a compensation arrangement there. If the video owner doesn't agree to monetisation (or if the rights owner isn't willing to accept that option) they can get the video pulled altogether, and if that happens repeatedly the video poster might get banned.

I've heard of this being exploited in rather creative ways: neo-Nazi starts recording himself in public, with the intent of putting the video up on YouTube, but protesters start singing Disney songs so the video will get pulled for copyright.

It also gets abused by organised crime. A friend of mine is a singer who used to post up recordings of her singing classical music, works that are long out of copyright. Somebody started putting up spurious copyright strikes, claiming they were the owner and demanding that she let them monetise the video or they'd get it taken down (which could eventually lead to her getting banned). Apparently this is quite a nice money-maker for organised crime these days, because it's a lot of work for individuals to fight these bad-faith claims.

 

[Thefireflies]

On Wattpad you can insert an image or videoclip as part of each chapter header and also anywhere in your text...

Thanks Chloe. I like the concept of linking a video clip, but yeah, it might not work so well here.

Music copyright certainly does include public performances...
Here in Australia, buskers are required to pay for a license. I'm not sure, but I think part of that license fee goes to copyright holders...

Thanks Bramblethorn. I knew buskers were licenced by local councils, but I assumed that was more for regulation purposes. In some locations it appears buskers are required to audition before they’re issued with a licence.
What you describe with your singer friend is terrible and I hope her experience didn’t discourage her.

On another note, it appears movie and TV show quotes appear to fall under the same rules as lyrics, so authors can’t have a character quoting Arnie in Predator, joking, “Get to the choppa!” or quoting Monty Python’s Black Knight, “It’s just a flesh wound!” or have characters referencing Ted Mosby’s Dobler-Dahmer Theory from HIMYM.
There are so many references to pop culture within all forms of media these days, and I can see the potential for lines to become blurred for authors, and perhaps even publishers, who might not remember or know they're using something that isn't original and has become a ‘meme’.
Of course the line isn’t so blurred with specific song lyrics.

 

[KeithD]

On another note, it appears movie and TV show quotes appear to fall under the same rules as lyrics, so authors can’t have a character quoting Arnie in Predator, joking, “Get to the choppa!” or quoting Monty Python’s Black Knight, “It’s just a flesh wound!” or have characters referencing Ted Mosby’s Dobler-Dahmer Theory from HIMYM.

50 words in a quote is the standard (unless you're writing a critique of the work itself, in which case quoted material can be more extensive) as acceptable, so whoever is holding that standard doesn't know copyright law.

 

[Thefireflies]

50 words in a quote is the standard (unless you're writing a critique of the work itself, in which case quoted material can be more extensive) as acceptable, so whoever is holding that standard doesn't know copyright law.

In my quick search I found a few sites and discussions giving similar the advice, but found this one linked to an article on how US Fair Use and Copyright laws apply when including quotes in published stories.

 

[Bramblethorn]

On another note, it appears movie and TV show quotes appear to fall under the same rules as lyrics, so authors can’t have a character quoting Arnie in Predator, joking, “Get to the choppa!” or quoting Monty Python’s Black Knight, “It’s just a flesh wound!” or have characters referencing Ted Mosby’s Dobler-Dahmer Theory from HIMYM.

Movie quotes certainly can be covered by copyright, but those particular examples seem doubtful to me.

Part of the requirement for copyright protection is the "threshold of originality". It is very difficult for any short sentence to meet that threshold, and "get to the chopper" or "it's just a flesh wound" are way too commonplace to qualify - they were probably said many times by others before those movies came out. If you were republishing the script for an entire scene, or if you were reusing the video/audio from the movie rather than just re-recording the words, that's more likely to be an issue. A lot of what makes those lines memorable is the context and the delivery.

One of the factors relevant to copyright is how much you've taken of the original work. Because songs are a lot shorter than movies, even a couple of lines might represent a significant portion of the work, and song lyrics are often highly distinctive.

 

[AlexBailey]

I'm glad I asked. Thanks for the thoughtful and researched comments. I learned another thing at Lit.

It seems to be pretty easy to write the part without the lyrics, though I will reference the song. The title and one line can draw the soundscape I'm looking for.

 

[SimonDoom]

On another note, it appears movie and TV show quotes appear to fall under the same rules as lyrics, so authors can’t have a character quoting Arnie in Predator, joking, “Get to the choppa!” or quoting Monty Python’s Black Knight, “It’s just a flesh wound!” or have characters referencing Ted Mosby’s Dobler-Dahmer Theory from HIMYM.
There are so many references to pop culture within all forms of media these days, and I can see the potential for lines to become blurred for authors, and perhaps even publishers, who might not remember or know they're using something that isn't original and has become a ‘meme’.
Of course the line isn’t so blurred with specific song lyrics.

I don't share the concern that these would be considered copyright infringement. A pretty good article on this subject is here: https://fairuse.stanford.edu/2003/09/09/copyright_protection_for_short/

Copyright infringement is unlikely in the case of the use of short quotes from movies or books in your story for three reasons.

1. First, the lines might not meet the threshold of originality or creativity. You can't use copyright law to monopolize the ability to make basic statements, like "It's just a flesh wound!" or "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."

2. Second, the use of a single line from a movie or book probably is not a substantial enough copying of the work to qualify as copyright infringement. It's a tiny part of the whole work.

3. Third, it might be fair use because such a tiny piece of the copyrighted work is being used.

I wouldn't spend any time worrying about using the phrase "It's just a flesh wound" in my story.