Roman Plumbing and Oppression?

[Weird Harold]

A couple of interesting historical tidbits were included in this evenings ModernMarvels episode on plumbing.

1: The Roman Emporers considered the elaborate public baths that ancient Rome was famous for as, "entertainment for the masses to keepcommoners from thinking about more important things, like revolution." Essentially, the public bths were presented as the first stage of the "Bread and Circuses" philosophy that culminated in the spectacles staged at the Collesium .

2: The early Christians associated the public baths (and Roman plumbing in general) with the decadence and oppression of the Roman and therefore set-up the conditions that led to the Black Plague by discouraging bathing and other basic sanitation.

3: "Some historians believe that the dementia caused by lead piping contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire."

These tidbits gave rise to some questions:

A: Since baths are just another means of pacifying the masses, should RedWave give up bathing?

B: On a more serious note, does the theory of Christians associating the Roman Baths with decadence (and possibly dementia) being a contributing factor to the scale of the black plague hold water? Could the theory be extended to explain early Christian attitudes about sexuality -- even in part?

C: Could lead poisoning explain the fall of the Roman Empire or at least explain the number of "mad" emperors?

 

[Coolville]

Explains a lot.
Somebody had better repair the lead plumbing in the White House - NOW!

 

[SINthysist]

I think they had a fear of water...

Another tidbit I picked up off one of those channels was that alchohol, beer, wine, etc., was so heavily consumed by European anscestors because drinking the water could be so dangerous. Some have even suggested that it shaped the evolution of our bodies by weeding out those with genes intolorant to alchohol consumption.

Alchoholism hence may have been created by water!

 

[lovetoread]

A: Since baths are just another means of pacifying the masses, should RedWave give up bathing?

Yes,it only calms you.


B: On a more serious note, does the theory of Christians associating the Roman Baths with decadence (and possibly dementia) being a contributing factor to the scale of the black plague hold water? Could the theory be extended to explain early Christian attitudes about sexuality -- even in part?

Yes,if they just would have kept things clean,and gotten rid of the rats,the plague would have never been so bad.

I think sexuality scared the leaders,thats why it was deemed as evil. Not because of the Roman Baths.


C: Could lead poisoning explain the fall of the Roman Empire or at least explain the number of "mad" emperors?

I think it was because of inbreeding,but the lead poisoning didnt help out much.

 

[Sillyman]

I don't know. A lot of the earliest Christian gestures were made as a direct suck-up to Rome.

 

[Weird Harold]

Could the theory be extended to explain early Christian attitudes about sexuality -- even in part?

...

I think sexuality scared the leaders,thats why it was deemed as evil. Not because of the Roman Baths.

Originally posted by Sillyman
I don't know. A lot of the earliest Christian gestures were made as a direct suck-up to Rome.

I agree (sort of) that early christian leaders were "scared" of sexuality, but the questionfor me has always been "why were they 'scared of sexuality'?"

When Rome fell and the Christians no longer had to "suck-up" to Rome is when many of the anti-sexuality precepts either came into being or came to the forefront of doctrine. Coincidently this seems to happen about the same time as bathing fell into disfavor -- at least as a social function.

It does seem to fit a theory that there was a backlash against anything associated with the Romans -- especially with "Roman Decadence."

 

[Anne Waters]

A couple of interesting historical tidbits were included in this evenings ModernMarvels episode on plumbing.

1: The Roman Emporers considered the elaborate public baths that ancient Rome was famous for as, "entertainment for the masses to keepcommoners from thinking about more important things, like revolution." Essentially, the public bths were presented as the first stage of the "Bread and Circuses" philosophy that culminated in the spectacles staged at the Collesium .

2: The early Christians associated the public baths (and Roman plumbing in general) with the decadence and oppression of the Roman and therefore set-up the conditions that led to the Black Plague by discouraging bathing and other basic sanitation.

3: "Some historians believe that the dementia caused by lead piping contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire."

These tidbits gave rise to some questions:

A: Since baths are just another means of pacifying the masses, should RedWave give up bathing?

B: On a more serious note, does the theory of Christians associating the Roman Baths with decadence (and possibly dementia) being a contributing factor to the scale of the black plague hold water? Could the theory be extended to explain early Christian attitudes about sexuality -- even in part?

C: Could lead poisoning explain the fall of the Roman Empire or at least explain the number of "mad" emperors?

Cool stuff!

Re the black plague, didn't the 14th Century outbreak start in asia and spread to europe via ship borne commerce?

Also, I don't think the lack of bathing contributed in any major way to the plague. Ancient Rome had it's share of rats too, nor was its sewage system really any good. They just dumped into the Tiber.

 

[Olivianna]

Re: Re: Roman Plumbing and Oppression?

Re the black plague, didn't the 14th Century outbreak start in asia and spread to europe via ship borne commerce?

Also, I don't think the lack of bathing contributed in any major way to the plague. Ancient Rome had it's share of rats too, nor was its sewage system really any good. They just dumped into the Tiber.

Yeah, you're right. The plaque was carried to Europe via ships, thus the port cities and towns were hit the hardest. It managed to penetrate into the hinterlands, but not as successfully.

As for plague and bathing - there have been plagues throughout history. Ancient Greece was hit hard by one in 430 BCE...the point I'm trying to make is that dirty or not, plagues happen (in ancient Rome too). The thing with the the Plague of 1348 was its virulence - it managed to wipe out 1/3 of the population of Europe (a conservative estimate at that). Certainly, cleanliness in general would make matters worse - filth would attract more disease-carrying rats.