Responsibility...Where Does It Belong?

[catalina_francisco]

Given recent discussions, and also the fact this comes up from time to time, where does responsibility lay when playing? Is it automatically all up to either the PYL or pyl, or is it something shared? How do you handle it? What happens when something unexpected happens...does it alter anything in terms of who is responsible? Is everything predictable and therefore a possibility to call someone on their actions if they don't seem to comply with your expectations, unspoken or otherwise?

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

For me, human responsibility lies with the person who knows they have the power to make the change and sees the way to get it done with the will to do it.

I understand power exchange in terms of a game with rules and roles that are agreed upon, but I also believe that there should be recourse to "out of character" expression in terms of being human.

In military terms it would be the "permission to speak freely?" paradigm. You ask for the right to express yourself outside the agreed upon chain of command in the spirit of making things better. Then you do the best to honestly express it. To not do so even in military terms often means going against your best judgment or following a bad order or doing something you know is destructive. Expressing yourself, although not expecting to get your way, you've lodged a complaint, so to speak, that counts in the future if things go sideways again. You set a precedent and an expectation.

If you have no right and no power based on the original agreement, and no out of character recourse, either secure one or change the terms, or accept that you have no power.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If you have no right and no power based on the original agreement, and no out of character recourse, either secure one or change the terms, or accept that you have no power.

For the PYL-- you're where the buck stops, buddy. Either own that responsibility or change the game you claim to be playing.

For the pyl-- if you have agreed that the buck stop is in the hands of someone else, you have to accept the possibility that the buck might not stop where you want it to. Either own that responsibility or change the game you claim to be playing.

And as always, I remind people that the person being done unto does NOT need to be the sub, the person administering might not be dominant. IF you approach a submissive top with the expectation that they are dominant-- thereby leaving them to their own assessments-- it's not going to end well.

 

[kittyn_]

In all (consensual) sex, everyone has shared responsibility. It's MY job to tell whomever I'm playing with exactly what I cannot handle and, considering my mental issues, a quick list of 'If I'm non-responsive/nonvocal, check X, Y, and Z please'.

It's the other parties job to tell me that same list of "Hey, this is what I can't handle, and this is a potential sign YOU should call this off" (yeah, I think the top type should let their HELL NO! situations be known too)

It's everybody's job to respect the intent of the other persons lists. Does that mean that the lists can't change? Nope. I'm in a long term relationship. I LOVE knowing we have worked through some of the things that scare the shit out of me, or have tried things that just seemed unappealing. It's fun, overall, and gives a better idea of exactly why you don't like a particular thing.

And yeah, there's always times when everything goes to shit. Miscommunications, accidents, bad days, whatever. I honestly don't think in responsible and safe environment that the blame EVER lies solely on one person. Granted, TPE would probably have it's own mess of problems with that statement, but I honestly could never go far enough to have no say, ever. I have no issues with my objections being overruled, but they damn sure need addressed upon occasion, ya know? So I can't even really think far enough into it to come up with a potential solution in TPE situations.

 

[Netzach]

Be a grown ass adult whoever you are and it should work out, is my philosophy.

 

[desertslave]

I think responsibility is shared. Even in a theoretically no-recourse relationship one still has the duty to themselves to express legitimate concerns--at the very least in regard to health and harm. For example, if I think my appendix is acute or proper circulation is at issue, my prime directive of not allowing Master's favorite toy to be harmed kicks in. It then becomes his responsibility to let me change position or get me to the ER.

 

[njlauren]

I think it is a shared responsibility, even in a TPE. For a dominant in a TPE to make the kind of decisions that go along with the power they have, they need information, they need feedback. If their sub/slave is claustrophobic or is having claustrophobic feelings with certain things the D does, and doesn't tell them, how the heck would they know to use in making decisions.....or if a sub is sick or has lost circulation or is blacking out or whatever, they have to tell the dominant that, because likely (hopefully) they don't want their owned sub to come to harm. Likewise, there is responsibility (IMO, and that is all this is, I don't claim it as 'the way) with a dominant to communicate with the sub where something could be misconstrued. Fore example, let's say the dominant has had a fight with someone in their family, is feeling stressed and worn out and can't deal with their sub, wants to be left alone. A sub could feel like they were being punished, being banished, as punishment and could really emotionally tear themselves apart, when it has nothing to do with them, IMO a good dominant would communicate with the sub (even though technically they may not have to in the terms of their contract) to let them know they simply need space to process something or deal with something.

Or for example, look at play in less severe/non d/s situations, where there is a safe word. A dominant who relies on the sub to use a safeword is setting themselves up for potential issues if they rely on that alone, it is also the responsibility of the dominant/top to observe their 'victim' and look for any signs of distress or issues. A sub in subspace may not know or realize damage is being done, and likewise a sub/bottom may stubbornly refuse to safeword, even though they are in distress, because they don't want to disappoint their top/bottom or take pride in being able to take it (and interesting take on this can be found in an internet story called "Soul Mates" by someone called tigger, has to do with a dominant who falls for a guy who isn't really a sub but wants to please her, and ends up taking crap he shouldn't, because he has this sense of honor that he has to do it 'for her'..and she for weird reasons blows by everything she stands for and ends up doing really stupid things...classic example of mutual stupidity).

I liked what someone else wrote, that the answer is both, that they need to act like adults and take responsibility on where they can, however that plays out in the dynamics of their relationship.

 

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

I agree the responsibility is shared. When I play with my pyl she has a safe word and a caution word although in the 13 years we have been together she has never used ether one. The first time I caned her I bruised her badly and sent her so far into sub space I was afraid we'd sleep on the floor of the room we we were playing in. I am not sure which of us enjoys her bruises more.

Still I have equal responsibility to ensure her safety. I do check with her frequently when we are playing. If the endorphins are flowing and I can't understand her response I'll sooth her with words and soft caresses until she can make herself understood.. Then she can decide if she has had enough or needs more.

When I was a kid my Texas momma used to tell me. "Boy you break them toys you can't play with them no more."

It is a lesson I have taken to heart especially with my most important toy.

MIke

 

[Sharon_]

Given recent discussions, and also the fact this comes up from time to time, where does responsibility lay when playing? Is it automatically all up to either the PYL or pyl, or is it something shared? How do you handle it? What happens when something unexpected happens...does it alter anything in terms of who is responsible? Is everything predictable and therefore a possibility to call someone on their actions if they don't seem to comply with your expectations, unspoken or otherwise?

Catalina

(shrug)
Not that I know very much at all to be speaking authoritatively in this venue, but we hillbillies have a saying that seems to apply (girls grow up rasslin' the fellas for sport, here):

If you're gonna rough-house and someone gets hurt, don't come cryin' to me.

Assumed risk.

Different thing than 'her skirt was too short'--sure, she may have been unwise to wear that garment in that location, and she'll have to own that...but it in no way shifts the blame for an attack from the criminal's shoulder--he will likewise have to own that one.

I would *think* after determining whether it was play or serious, the answer then becomes easy...but what do I know.

 

[geekmaster24]

Aw you guys are preaching my prayer....

It all comes down to communication.

If the sub does not communicate to the dom that things are not all right, then the dom has no idea that something is wrong. If the dom keeps going then and the sub does not say anything, how is it the doms fault that they continued with something the sub did not want.

At the same time, its the doms responsibility to ask questions on how the sub is about the relationship or session. If they do not, then they are not as good as they probably think they are.

 

[Netzach]

I think that there is a layer of responsibility if you're the top though. You are the designated driver of your sex life, and that's the price you pay for all this awesome power.

I think if you're not sure whether to press on or not, it's YOUR job to be the sobriety and put on the brakes. In the absence of any information, your responsibility is to manage the risk in the situation. If you can't manage the risk, you're not actually in control.

Sometimes that's OK. I reject the idea that everyone has to have such a control fetish that power without control isn't even considered as a valid choice. I thrive on situations I'm not entirely the final word on managing - with people who are OK with the results of that.

Plenty of people take risks together, but that needs to be overtly out there to be a hot and sexy moment of "let's take this risk together" versus a moment of "oh shit" which makes you look like a fool.

The submissive's job is to acknowledge and accept or reject the risks that can't be managed by anyone no matter how "good" they are - as an adult making an adult decision. "Oh Master is perfect and nothing will ever go wrong" is simply not an adult enough reaction for me to consider safe to walk and chew gum let alone do SM.

 

[bailey19]

Aw you guys are preaching my prayer....

It all comes down to communication.

If the sub does not communicate to the dom that things are not all right, then the dom has no idea that something is wrong. If the dom keeps going then and the sub does not say anything, how is it the doms fault that they continued with something the sub did not want.

At the same time, its the doms responsibility to ask questions on how the sub is about the relationship or session. If they do not, then they are not as good as they probably think they are.

I agree with geekmaster24.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think that there is a layer of responsibility if you're the top though. You are the designated driver of your sex life, and that's the price you pay for all this awesome power.

I think if you're not sure whether to press on or not, it's YOUR job to be the sobriety and put on the brakes. In the absence of any information, your responsibility is to manage the risk in the situation. If you can't manage the risk, you're not actually in control.

Sometimes that's OK. I reject the idea that everyone has to have such a control fetish that power without control isn't even considered as a valid choice. I thrive on situations I'm not entirely the final word on managing - with people who are OK with the results of that.

Plenty of people take risks together, but that needs to be overtly out there to be a hot and sexy moment of "let's take this risk together" versus a moment of "oh shit" which makes you look like a fool.

The submissive's job is to acknowledge and accept or reject the risks that can't be managed by anyone no matter how "good" they are - as an adult making an adult decision. "Oh Master is perfect and nothing will ever go wrong" is simply not an adult enough reaction for me to consider safe to walk and chew gum let alone do SM.

Word.

 

[BiBunny]

I think that if you choose to shirk your responsibility--top or bottom--and things don't go the way you want them to, then you have officially lost your right to bitch about it.