Republicans

[Sandia]

Never, we have so much in common.

"Like rough sex, eh, Never? And I like "Radwave"-- I may change my name!"

Yes. Then again, I also like the idea of Killer and lavender mud wrestling.

I don't understand your continued reluctance in this thing.

And Dougy, you said: How can we trust people to do the right thing?

This is the argument for libertarianism. You're right, you can't trust 'em; that's why you don't want them telling you what to do.

And Sin, the argument about whether the rich consume more resources is a tricky one, but surely they benefit more from the system, don't they? The system - the economic system, and the legal system - are what makes their wealth possible.

Patents
Copyrights
Corporations
Securities
Contracts
The civil court system
Even the economic infrastructure benefit

the rich more than the poor, right?

 

[sigh]

Education, at the primary and secondary level, is about developing skills that anyone can learn. Art is a talent. No school can teach talent. Are you suggesting they can, or are you suggesting that the school system should cater itself to those that have the 'talent'?

Ishmael

Ah, there we go. You see, hon, I believe that at the very heart of all debates is a misunderstanding of each other's assumptions and this is a perfect example of that. You assume that art is a talent. I disagree. I say that art is an expression. Anyone can express themselves and everyone should, and learning to express yourself, and being rewarded for doing so, is more important in my book than mastering a multiplication table.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: Re: Piffle.

Many trial lawyers are getting very wealthy "shaking down the system" and they're paying big political bucks to keep the gravy train running. Don't give me that crap about "standing up for the little guy and truth, justice and American way" either in the face of the massive onslaught on the US economy by trial lawyers.

Ask about the 400% increases in liability insurance for doctors who deliver babies (driving many of them to quit delivering babies over fear of unreasonable lawsuits). Ask about the dwindling pool of rural doctors who are forced to leave the rural areas because they can't charge enough to pay for the liability insurance.

Ask also about the clients who hire the lawyers - they too share a responsiblity for such problems. The lawyers offer them a get rich quick scheme, or a way to blame someone for their misfortune, and they go for it - happily and with a vengence. It takes two to tango - or rather three; what about the insurance companies that would rather settle on a questionable lawsuit than fight it out of principle?

I would have to see a study of a good selection of lawsuits which determines how many are just "shaking down the system" and how many are actually valid lawsuits addressing negligence to make a determination of just what the causes of our problems are.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

And Sin, the argument about whether the rich consume more resources is a tricky one, but surely they benefit more from the system, don't they? The system - the economic system, and the legal system - are what makes their wealth possible.

Patents
Copyrights
Corporations
Securities
Contracts
The civil court system
Even the economic infrastructure benefit

the rich more than the poor, right?

They benefit the entrepenuers more, those that properly (and sometimes improperly) work the system to gain more wealth - sure. Many "rich" people were once poor, but here they found "the land of opportunity". Is that a bad thing to have a system that rewards hard work, inventiveness and initiative?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Re: Re: Re: Piffle.

Ask also about the clients who hire the lawyers - they too share a responsiblity for such problems. The lawyers offer them a get rich quick scheme, or a way to blame someone for their misfortune, and they go for it - happily and with a vengence. It takes two to tango - or rather three; what about the insurance companies that would rather settle on a questionable lawsuit than fight it out of principle?

I would have to see a study of a good selection of lawsuits which determines how many are just "shaking down the system" and how many are actually valid lawsuits addressing negligence to make a determination of just what the causes of our problems are.

I would too.

A number of states are dealing with medical malpractice lawsuits by restricting the "pain and suffering" amounts to $250,000 and lower. If there's a solid case of egegious wrongdoing, I'd like to see it be higher (many states allow higher awards based on judicial discretion). At the same time, I'd rather see a modification to the system that prevents frivolous lawsuits from being brought. Concentrate resources where they're really needed based on the merits of a case.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

They benefit the entrepenuers more, those that properly (and sometimes improperly) work the system to gain more wealth - sure. Many "rich" people were once poor, but here they found "the land of opportunity". Is that a bad thing to have a system that rewards hard work, inventiveness and initiative?

Those things that you describe are like setting up the ball field. The field, the rules, the refs. When the game starts, those that excel, succeed.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Anyone can express themselves and everyone should, and learning to express yourself, and being rewarded for doing so, is more important in my book than mastering a multiplication table.

Well let's address that assumption/assertion:

Would you agree that art and music has been around a lot longer than science, math and engineering as we now know them?

Which would you say has done more to improve our lives over the last few centuries - art or science/engineering?

Did art find penicillin? Did art discover bacteria and virsues? Did art develop electronics, thermodynamics, mechanical engineering, physics, medical science, computer science, environmental science, weather forecasting - any of the other myriad scientific or engineering disciplines?

Could any of those disciplines have been explored and developed to any degree without a rudimentary understanding of the language of science and engineering - math?

Would you be expressing yourself here, in this medium, if it wasn't for some artless "nerd" who concentrated on the science and engineering disciplines?

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Those things that you describe are like setting up the ball field. The field, the rules, the refs. When the game starts, those that excel, succeed.

Only if the rules are conducive to success - the failure of the Soviet Union is an example that the wrong rules, even when purportedly used to "level the field", do not result in excellence or success.

 

[Rick DeVille]

There is an amazing political naivety and immaturity in US.
Political thought can’t be readily divided between Democrats and Republicans.

BTW:All porcupines float in water.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Piffle.

A number of states are dealing with medical malpractice lawsuits by restricting the "pain and suffering" amounts to $250,000 and lower. If there's a solid case of egegious wrongdoing, I'd like to see it be higher (many states allow higher awards based on judicial discretion). At the same time, I'd rather see a modification to the system that prevents frivolous lawsuits from being brought. Concentrate resources where they're really needed based on the merits of a case.

A hard balance to arrive at - who decides what is frivolous? The personal injury and liability lawyers argue one way, the insurance companies and doctors another way. Who is right and who is wrong? It isn't easy to decide because they often both have valid points to their arguments.

What I think the real problem is, is the mentality of the jurors and the plaintiffs who bring the "frivolous" lawsuits. If people thought a bit more rationally rather than emotionally, were taught personal and civil responsibility, I think the problems would not be so egregious.

 

[Rick DeVille]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Piffle.

A hard balance to arrive at - who decides what is frivolous? The personal injury and liability lawyers argue one way, the insurance companies and doctors another way. Who is right and who is wrong? It isn't easy to decide because they often both have valid points to their arguments.

What I think the real problem is, is the mentality of the jurors and the plaintiffs who bring the "frivolous" lawsuits. If people thought a bit more rationally rather than emotionally, were taught personal and civil responsibility, I think the problems would not be so egregious.

Jesus L. Christ

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Good night fellow Litonians - as much as I enjoy this, it is past my bedtime, and the bed beckons.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Piffle.

Jesus L. Christ

I was going to ask what your point was - thinking this was just an exclamation, but I get it.

 

[sigh]

Well let's address that assumption/assertion:

Would you agree that art and music has been around a lot longer than science, math and engineering as we now know them?

Which would you say has done more to improve our lives over the last few centuries - art or science/engineering?

Did art find penicillin? Did art discover bacteria and virsues? Did art develop electronics, thermodynamics, mechanical engineering, physics, medical science, computer science, environmental science, weather forecasting - any of the other myriad scientific or engineering disciplines?

Could any of those disciplines have been explored and developed to any degree without a rudimentary understanding of the language of science and engineering - math?

Would you be expressing yourself here, in this medium, if it wasn't for some artless "nerd" who concentrated on the science and engineering disciplines?

You misunderstand. What I'm saying is that learning to express yourself is a talent that underlies ALL learning, including the sciences. STG, I'm a scientist, okay?, but I'm good at what I do because I was taught how to let go and be good at those things for which I have a natural talent.

Art is important because it teaches you to go beyond what you once considered your limitations to be. Without such an mindset, there would never be greatness.

(And by the way, there was no greater nerd in my school than me.)

 

[REDWAVE]

Education

Fascinating. This has turned into a debate about education. Lavy is advocating a traditional liberal education, encompassing the arts as well as technical disciplines. We can argue over which is more important, but to me there's no doubt they're both important. However, the trend for quite some time now has been toward jettisoning the arts and humanities, and even the social "sciences" (semi-sciences?), in favor of a purely "practical" technical and/or business education. Also, there has been a big move back toward making education the exclusive province of the rich and affluent, and greatly limiting the availability of education to poorer people. Why?

Again, the ruling class learned some important lessons from the 1960's. Through a liberal policy of student financial aid (grants and loans), education was made widely available to the children of working class parents. These college students as a result became "uppity." Educated blacks became very uppity, and incited other blacks to uppityness. The ruling class learned that the greatest danger to it was an educated working class. That is why they have greatly restricted access to quality education for the poor.

Also, the capitalist ruling class needs wage-slaves who are technically skilled and can perform the tasks big corporations need them to perform, but they don't want people who are capable of independent thought and critical judgment-- which is what a well-rounded, "liberal" education creates.

Well-trained robots-- that's what they want.

 

[Unclebill]

Re: Re: Republicans

Originally posted by Dougy
. . . As far as Libertarians...how can you trust that people, left to their own devices will make appropriate decisions?

Based on whose judgment? Yours? Libertarians advocate you making your life's decisions and bearing the responsibility for them. It's called freedom and individual rights.

Are you offering a better idea? If so, what? The slavery of collectivism?

Are you so arrogant and condescending that you actually believe that some government bureaucrat should be making the decisions regarding the private lives of the people at large? Or is it you who should be making the decisions for everyone? There's a name for that concept: it's called tyranny. It's been practiced by a few already: remember Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot (sp?), Mao Tse Tung and a few others. Fine results they produced, eh?

Originally posted by kotori
Hey some of those Enron and Worldcom and Aldelphi people in gated communites are moving up to new, federally-operated, barbed-wired gated communities, like Lewisburg and Leavenworth.

Too bad we don't have a way to put the criminals in Congress who have been cooking the books worse than this for fifty years in with these newcomers to the game.

Originally posted by princessa
what facts?

in a general sense, what he says is true.

republicans = big business = cut taxes, all about money and keeping it

What an novel concept: property rights and freedom. Sadly, the Republicans give little more than lip service to the concept, however.

Originally posted by princessa
. . . democrats = small business, minorities = more social issues

Meaning more power of the politicians to dispose of the lives and property of others. Small business because they raise taxes and create obtuse and intrusive regulations to the point of virtually destroying the business community.

Originally posted by Ishmael
. . . The "Big Business" myth is the most pervasive and misdirecting lie the Democrats have been able to perpetuate.

Ishmael

I dunno about that. I think the one that corporations pay taxes is a bigger one.

Originally posted by deliciously_naughty
blah blah blah blah blah

spew spew spew spew

it's that time again....let's play I . . . refuse to see reality !

You're already out to a huge lead, it would seem, in your chosen game.

 

[Lost Cause]

Teach anything you want....

As long as it's based in truth! Small arms theory and marksmanship, as well as stock market investing, should be required credits.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

Ok, I must comment on the arts issue here... Where do you draw the line for cutting an arts class or cutting a core class? For Christ's sake my school had 15-16 different choirs,bands and orchestra's total. Would you rather keep all 15-16 musical "classes" than a science, math or language class if you were forced to cut on or the other?

For me it is an easy choice... You cut one of those arts "classes" in favor of something the students will NEED in the real world. Because some of you need to face the facts, Math is just a tad more important than being able to sing, play an instrument or paint some dreadful looking pear.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

For me it is an easy choice... You cut one of those arts "classes" in favor of something the students will NEED in the real world. Because some of you need to face the facts, Math is just a tad more important than being able to sing, play an instrument or paint some dreadful looking pear.

I don't know that it is an easy choice, but it is a choice that some people might have to make. I was not advocating that art isn't important, or that we don't need the arts in school, I was just trying to define priorities should worse come to worse, but you would have thought I had desecrated some holy icon the way they reacted. Shit people, it is just a hypothetical debate for most of us - there are certainly a lot of other things to cut before you cut items in education. You can't take someone having a little bit different viewpoint without coming unglued??

This thread has really degraded dreadfully. People on both sides calling other people names and getting downright pissy. Lighten up.

 

[Temptress_1960]

I want to belong to a Democrats only Country Club and a Democrats only home owner's association.

I think I need to move to Massachusetts or Vermont.

What makes you think Vermont is all Democrats???

A good many of us are stubborn Yankee Independents, thank you.