Renaissance Italy

[Marsipanne]

I have some questions for all you history buff literoticans out there. I've started writing a piece of erotica (my first!!) and it's 7500 words so far. It's set in Renaissance Italy and is romance. However, there's a problem for me: I know very little about renaissance italy (a few documentaries on da Vinci etc., three novels set in that time)

Questions:

1. I read somewhere that outside of city-states there were big pieces of land governed by a 'noble' of some sort. Would these people have titles and what kind? E.g. duke, baron etc.

2. What kind of food did they eat? Did they have 'normal' bread or non-yeast bread like they have in pizza?

3. Anybody know how the Medici organised their armies??

I really should do all this research myself, and I've done a little on the internet but it's yielded surprisingly little. Most of the stuff's about art and the patrons and the big feuds between Sforzas Medici etc. (aren't these names cool?!!). These little things about food etc. I can't find.

Anybody help? Oh, and if there's anything you know about the renaissance, even the most random, please tell me. It's the little details that help make a story more interesting.

 

[minsue]

Calling Perdita! Has anyone seen 'Dita?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Or, this may help — http://www.boisestate.edu/courses/hy309/docs/burckhardt/burckhardt.html

At the least, it could be fun to read, if you are interested in Renaissance Italy.

 

[Guest]

Marsi, someone PMd me to say she couldn't believe I had not yet posted here. My interest is in Venetian history, esp. the Renaissance. I mention that because if you know any Italian history it makes a difference what city or area your story is set in. If you want authenticity you will need to research seriously, unless you luck out and someone here can help with the specifics.

Perdita

 

[Marsipanne]

I'm doing a cop-out regarding specifics. I only say it's in Tuscany and the Medicis are fighting somebody (which seemed to happen a lot). Most of my information comes from reading Vittorio, the Vampire, by Anne Rice. It's not really the stuff about the big famous people I need to know, it's the peasantry and the struggling artists etc. It's not a huge part of the story, but historical inaccuracy can be annoying to some so I'm making my best effort to not put anything that's wrong.

 

[minsue]

It's not a huge part of the story, but historical inaccuracy can be annoying to some so I'm making my best effort to not put anything that's wrong.

You might want to use something other than Rice for your info then. She's a master of detail, but I don't know how accurate that detail is.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Food was a basic concern of all periods. Most food to be preserved over the long winter was either salted or dried, a process based on the Egyptian process of embalming. Especially popular was preserved herring, a trade dominated by the Hanseatic League and the source of its wealth. People depended on preserved foods for winter and spring, before crops began producing fresh food again. Bringing back this salted food was back-breaking work, since the food would have to be soaked in many changes of water, all of which would have to be drawn from a well. Usually, people cooked something along with the food, like beans, to absorb the salt they could not get out by rinsing.
The food thus presented was salty and bland, and so it was served with spicy sauces into which the meat or fish, cut into small pieces, was dunked. The yellow sauce, made of ginger and saffron, and the green sauce, made of ginger, cardamom, cloves and green herbs, were as common as mustard and ketchup on a modern American table. Pepper became so valuable it was used as part of a dowry. Europeans, chronically short of hard currency, sometimes used spices to pay their debts. These spices were not used to cover up spoiled meat, however; spices were abandoned long before reliable refrigeration came into use that actually retarded spoilage. In fact, these spices were a matter of acquired taste. Spices were also associated with Paradise; Europeans believed that Eden was a real place that simply had to be discovered. The mania for spices thus helps explain the drive to get to the Spice Islands and India by sea.
In the beginning, the rich and the poor ate the same food, only the rich ate more of it. But in the Renaissance, the upper and middle class diet began to change. They abandoned spices as old-fashioned and began to present foods in simple sauces that allowed the natural flavor to be revealed. The Italians were the first to emerge from world of medieval spices and cooking. The new Italian cooking techniques were transferred to France when Catherine de Medici arrived from Florence to marry Henry II, carrying with her a battery of Italian chefs. Many of these new cooking ideas were written down in cookery books that were among the earliest printed materials.
Table manners were poor by modern standards. People used their fingers to eat, rather than forks that could become dangerous weapons in the hands of easily excitable individualists. Indeed, as late as 1897, British sailors were forbidden to use forks because it was said to do so would damage their manliness. People were always scratching because of fleas and lice, and courtesy books recommended openly washing your hands before choosing your meat so everyone would know your hands were clean.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I'm no schloar on Italian history, but in Italy when it comes to large landholders you may find the papacy to be one of the biggest. From the time of at least Gregory II most of the landowners in the Itlaian penensula owed at least token fealty to the pope.

For specific titles, the head of Venise was the Doge. A kind of prince in his own right, but elected I believe.

Rome was a Duchy, which would make the titular overloard a Duke. You could probably get away with using anglican titles Baron, Count, Duke etc, but I am pretty sure the Italians had their own system.

Even today, when it comes to food there is a difference between northern itlalian & southern italian. What the staple crop was & how it was prepared with varry from city state to city state and region to region. If you are working with Venice, be aware that the city was the hub of a vast trade network that stretched as far as china. So you won't be too far out on a limb to feature most any kind of dish at a banquet.

The Medici did not field an army perse. Compulsary service was with their navy. This is the era of the Condoratti. Basically large mercenary formations employed by whatever city state could afford them. They were predominatly foot, although some employed cavalry and crossbowmen.

As Dita said, through research will be neccessary if you wish to capture realism in the work. As far as the Medici are concerned I would begin by picking up a used copy of the Prince. It is about as good a starting point as any for research into power, politics and intrigue as you will find.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Good points, Colly. The church and government in Italian history were intricately united. I can't recall the date but it was not that long ago that the Vatican separated itself from Italy to become its own city-state.

I think only Venice had a doge, who was selected by the nobility and had very little singular power, he really had to represent his constituency.

If one gets into any Renaissance art, then Venice is not to be ignored (nor Rome or Florence).

Perdita

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Good points, Colly. The church and government in Italian history were intricately united. I can't recall the date but it was not that long ago that the Vatican separated itself from Italy to become its own city-state.

I think only Venice had a doge, who was selected by the nobility and had very little singular power, he really had to represent his constituency.

If one gets into any Renaissance art, then Venice is not to be ignored (nor Rome or Florence).

Perdita

Remember with the Doge, his power was absolute, but he was still a citizen. As a citizen he could be arrested, tried for treason etc. At least 2 men were executed for plotting treason against the freedoms of their fellow Venicians. You may read that to mean they were embroiled in plots to try and claim the title of Doge for themselves and their heirs in perpetuity.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Remember with the Doge, his power was absolute, but he was still a citizen. As a citizen he could be arrested, tried for treason etc. At least 2 men were executed for plotting treason against the freedoms of their fellow Venicians. You may read that to mean they were embroiled in plots to try and claim the title of Doge for themselves and their heirs in perpetuity.

Colly, I'm not sure what you mean. I never thought of a doge as that powerful. He was strictly observed and judged, even after death, and a virtual prisoner of the doge's palace. My recall of what I've read is that a doge was truly a servant leader. Yeah, there were some bad eggs but none came close to "ruling" Venice like a monarch.

P.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, I'm not sure what you mean. I never thought of a doge as that powerful. He was strictly observed and judged, even after death, and a virtual prisoner of the doge's palace. My recall of what I've read is that a doge was truly a servant leader. Yeah, there were some bad eggs but none came close to "ruling" Venice like a monarch.

P.

I defer totally to you on this one Dita. My recollection was that the Doge was similar to Roman dictators, appointed for a one year term with sweeping powers. As I said before though, Italian history is not my strong point and with the jumble of things I can recall reading I am quite likely confusing the scope of the Doge's powers with some other city state.

-Colly

 

[minsue]

I defer totally to you on this one Dita. My recollection was that the Doge was similar to Roman dictators, appointed for a one year term with sweeping powers. As I said before though, Italian history is not my strong point and with the jumble of things I can recall reading I am quite likely confusing the scope of the Doge's powers with some other city state.

-Colly

Aw, don't defer! There's something very sexy about two intelligent women arguing over Renaissance rulers.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Most of the wealthy Italian families that had armies didn't have their own standing armies. They used the services of paid mercenary armies called condotta headed by men known as Condottieri, who might fight first for one family, then turn around and fight for the other one, depending on who paid better. Families and city-states and the Pope were always trying to buy off each other's armies or bribe them, and the condottieri themselves were always selling out one family to another. Italian politics during the renaissance was infamous for its complexity and viciousness.

Everyone was fighting everyone, and the Pope of Rome was fighting with the Pope at Avignon, and the Duke of Burgundy was trying to establish a Kingdom in Naples. It was a total mess.

One of the most famous Condottieri was an Englishman named John Hawkwood, and a lot of the soldiers were French and English left over from the on-again/off-again 100-years' war between England and France. When raping and pillaging got slow in France, they'd mosey on down to Italy and spend a year or two down there.

All this info is from Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century, a terrific book.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Just did a quick look up in my best book on V. Doges were elected for life. They could not make any decision of state without the councillors of the six sestieri. All his actions were overseen/ruled by the Seignory (the six councillors plus the three tribunal heads). The doge even had to pay all expenses for any events held in the palace, and for repairs and restoration. Venice once had a pretty good checks and balances government. I think they were the only Italian city in history that defied the Pope once (can't recall the dates).

Gosh, now I feel like rereading all my Venice books. P.

 

[Guest]

Aw, don't defer! There's something very sexy about two intelligent women arguing over Renaissance rulers.

Minge! We weren't arguing, just having a civil and fun (for me) conversation about one of my favourite topicsl.

P.

 

[minsue]

Minge! We weren't arguing, just having a civil and fun (for me) conversation about one of my favourite topicsl.

P.

Don't ruin this for me, 'Dita....

 

[Guest]

Don't ruin this for me, 'Dita....

Colly, you conservative southerner, you. Venice was the San Francisco of the Renaissance, they would have thrown "Republicans" in the canals! So there. I win.

Bite me, Perdita

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, you conservative southerner, you. Venice was the San Francisco of the Renaissance, they would have thrown "Republicans" in the canals! So there. I win.

Bite me, Perdita

Bite you? I suppose since I lost that means I get to decide where

Decisions decisions

-Colly

On a side note, if they still toss Republicans in the Canals, I know a couple who could use it.

 

[minsue]

Ahhh....that's better

You ladies rawk, BTW.

 

[oggbashan]

Machiavelli's The Prince should be read to give you some idea of how political systems worked.

Raphael Sabatini (who?) wrote some good novels on the era. 'Love at Arms' and 'Historical Nights Entertainment' should give you a feel for the period.

Og

PS. Edited to add 2 more Sabatini books on the period: 'The Banner of the Bull' and 'Bellarion the Fortunate'.

 

[amicus]

Rural Italy is not much different now, well, at least in 1970, to speak personally, than it was 300 years ago.

It is the Catholic Church that basically dictates social customs, for all classes. It is olives, and their uses, grape growing and wines, and goat meat or fish, near the ocean.

For a novel, consider what you have read or seen, about Italian and French, men and women. Add to that the Spanish, and you have a Latin flavor to the personalities of both men and women that is quick tempered, violent, jealous and possessive.

I mention that, and imply the ancestry of the people, which is in such opposition to the Germanic peoples of the colder climes.

Enjoy your write and please let me know when you finish.

regards..amicus

 

[Marsipanne]

Thanks for the help, everybody. I knew the stuff about mercenaries, but one thing I'm not sure about is the state of the nobility. Because of the nature of city-states there wouldn't be 'kingdoms' as such, would there? So, there wouldn't a specific hierarchy throughout the whole of the country. I think the food thing's generally covered now, I think I can figure out enough. Some general questions:

Would a son of a wealthy/noble family fight as a mercenary/offer his services to e.g. Medici? I would expect that sons of rich to learn to fight (well they did in England didn't they) but would they offer their services to richer people in order to win support? Also, these 'country nobles', what sort of titles would they have? At the moment I've got 'Duke' which doesn't sound right. Would 'Don' by more suitable? I looked it up in a dictionary and it says it means father, but I read a book in which that title was used for the lord of the manor type guy.

Thanks!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thanks for the help, everybody. I knew the stuff about mercenaries, but one thing I'm not sure about is the state of the nobility. Because of the nature of city-states there wouldn't be 'kingdoms' as such, would there? So, there wouldn't a specific hierarchy throughout the whole of the country. I think the food thing's generally covered now, I think I can figure out enough. Some general questions:

Would a son of a wealthy/noble family fight as a mercenary/offer his services to e.g. Medici? I would expect that sons of rich to learn to fight (well they did in England didn't they) but would they offer their services to richer people in order to win support? Also, these 'country nobles', what sort of titles would they have? At the moment I've got 'Duke' which doesn't sound right. Would 'Don' by more suitable? I looked it up in a dictionary and it says it means father, but I read a book in which that title was used for the lord of the manor type guy.

Thanks!

The first son of a wealthy family would not enter the military. A third or fourth son might end up selling his sword arm, assuming his brothers were still alive, although the church was a much more attractive option if you cared to live long.

Sword skill has always been highly prized by the nobility, no matter what age. One of the rights of the nobility was to carry a sword, your average soldier fought with a pike or axe or other common weapon. In Italy, the favored technique was with the rapier. Italian sword masters developed this particular fighting style to the point where they were imported to teach the children of nobility all over Europe in latter centuries.

Here are a few general notes on titale of nobility:

In italy the rulers of truly vast holdings, Like Savoy were knon simply as counts. Up until the 11th centruy or so titles of nobility weren't really neccessary. Those of noble birth had surnames, those of common birth had only given names. In practice this meant Guiseppe was a commoner while Guisppe di Lanza was a noble. The sur name being most commonly the feif to which the nobleman held claim, I.e. in this case the town of Lanza. Di is not a title in itself, like the German Von.

Signori(equivilent of lord), Cavilieri (equivilent of knight), and Baroni (Baron), were intorduced by the normans in the late 11th early 12th centuries, but were not in extremely common usage.

Be careful with Duke. Only a few Duchy's existed in Italy. Savoy, Casto (the two sicilie) etc. these titles are equivilent of the Roayal dukedoms in England Like Yorkshire, Kent & Windsor. They are extremely high and extremely rare titles.

-Colly

 

[Marsipanne]

I've gotten rid of the 'Duke' thing now. I think some surname changes are in order too.

In my story, the noble who's son's a knight is the second son and was (note the was) rather reckless and somewhat blasphemous. I'll try and include as much of the information everybody's kindly given me in the story as possible.

Thanks again.