Religion?

[Hubs_in_hose]

Since someone else brought it up in another thread here, I wanted to expound on where I am with my beliefs. If this isn't the place for such a thread, please delete it. I didn't want to post this on the GB, as there are too many clowns there that would do nothing but attack what I am saying. If it can be discussed here, great, if not let it fall to irrelevance.

First, a bit of background. I grew up in a Christian home. We did not regularly attend church, but we did maintain the basics. I became more religious as a young adult. I attended church more often and even participated in some church activities. When I met the woman that would become my wife, we became more active in church as she was a devout Christian. She at least compromised to go to the church that I had somewhat been attending. Over the years (we have been married for almost 20 years now) we have been a part of several churches that had large schisms. These happened at different churches and different states. We were not at the core of the fights, but always seemed to be involved with one of the factions.

I said enough and have since quit all church.

Since then, I feel as if a blindfold has been removed from me. I look at the actions of all organized religions and see how they manipulate their members. In the Christian churches, I don't see a body that worships God. I see a body that tries to defend their actions by using the Bible. They believe that it is the word of God but don't see any error in just following portions of the book. Nor do they seem to understand that the book has been rewritten many, many times over the centuries. I see much of the same thing in many of the Islamic beliefs as well. (How a faith can so willingly abuse women as an act of religious belief boggles my mind.) I will admit that I have not been a follower of the Jewish religion so I cannot say that they are or are not a party to the same selective practice as the others.

Do I believe in God? I believe in a Creator or some kind of force that we cannot understand. I do not believe that God or the Creator has a direct hand in our lives. It sickens me when people say "It is God's will" when something horrible happens, like the death or serious illness/injury to a child, extreme damage from storms or other acts of nature, or any other unexplained phenomenon. Why would God/Creator willingly allow such tragedy to his/her creation?

I don't believe in any organized religion. I do believe that they exist to manipulate the uneducated masses and to somewhat control them. I will never donate a dime to any church. They preach that they are helping others when at the core of what they want to do is build a bigger monument/building to honor the preacher that extracted the money. As a former trustee of a church it sickened me to see how much money is spent on salaries and church building and so little is going to actually helping people that need it (less than one dime out of every dollar taken)

The sad part of all this is that I cannot really discuss this with my family. I wish that I could remove the yoke off my wife and kids. But they believe that church is something that they have to do.

I know that there are many more people out there, like me, that have given up on religion. I wonder how long it will be until the non-religious will be the accepted norm for this country?

I guess what I want to believe is that I believe in a Creator that is more interested in how I treat others than if I believe in him.

 

[johneb87]

Religion is always a touchy subject and discussing it on internet forums can lead to either thoughtful discussion or instigate a flame war (usually the latter).

As for me, I have a similar story. I grew up attending an Episcopal church. While it is the more liberal of Christian faith (pro-gay rights, pro-women), I still got sick of organized religion in general. Especially when hearing churches debate who was more "Christian" than the other. While I no longer attend church, I still stay in contact with many family friends there and still participate in some activities such as delivering meals on Thanksgiving to the less fortunate.

I still consider myself a spiritual person but refuse to recognize any God through an organized religion. Though lately, I have not been on speaking terms with God since the sudden and tragic death of my Grandfather a couple years ago.

Thank you for sharing your experience, Hubs, and I hope this thread does remain civil.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I am an atheist. A, meaning 'no" theo meaning "god," ist sufix meaning "one who espouses."

I espouse that gods do not exist.

I do not accept a "God" defined as "the universe" (the universe is already defined) or "The Life Force" or "Love." These concepts already have been defined, and "God" has been defined as something other than these things.

There is much talk about "believing in evolution" or "believing in the big bang, etc. This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what, exactly, science is and does. I do not "believe in evolotuin." I accept that there has been sufficient evidence to show that evolution is a process so highly probable as to be a theory-- it's possible that somehow someday there might be a better theory that better explains the evidence we have gathered. So too, there might someday come conclusive evidence that a self-aware, self-created, prime creator of the universe exists, and then I will accept that evidence. I won't "be forced to believe" in such a creature, as so many proselytizers threaten-- I will have knowledge that it exists.

 

[PennLady]

These types of threads do seem to lend themselves to flame wars, unfortunately.

I was raised Catholic and kind of went back and forth in college and after and even went at least occasionally when I was living with my then-fiance (now husband). He is not part of any organized church, so it's all foreign to him.

Since then, I've had no reason to resume. We both thought the pre-marital counseling we received wasn't terribly useful. It focused 90% on birth control, when we felt other issues deserved attention, for example. I had issues with the Catholic Church positions on gays, birth control, women priests, etc., and it didn't seem right to attend Mass when I had those differences. And this was all before the child abuse scandals came out.

Since that all came to light, along with the cover ups, etc., I simply couldn't bring myself to go back. How could I possibly trust the institution that allowed this to happen? I know there are good priests -- I've known some -- who are completely innocent. So it's not their fault. But it is the fault of their bishops, cardinals and the Pope.

Do I have issues with the basic teachings of Jesus, which amount to, in the words of George Carlin in "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure:" Be excellent to each other? No, I think that about sums it up. There are worse codes to live by.

One thing that's always stuck in my head was an observation from a friend of mine, also not Catholic, who majored in religious studies. He noted that Catholicism adheres a lot more to "Paulianity," the teachings in St. Paul's epistles, than the direct words of Christ. Maybe therein lies some of the problem.

Oh, yes, full disclosure: I have had both my kids baptized in the Catholic Church. Partly for family issues, and partly b/c I guess old habits die hard.

ETA: All that said, I find no reason to mock or otherwise disrespect those who do believe in (a) God and practice a religion. The problem comes when they try to force it on the rest of us, no matter our beliefs.

 

[Redkate]

I don't want to comment on my religious beliefs on Internet forums. It usually does end in a flame war and not worth it because no one changes their mind and few people are willing to even listen to other view points.

But I would like to say I hate it when people can't tell the difference between atheism (correctly defined above) and agnosticism

That's all from me on the topic.

 

[Hubs_in_hose]

Thank you for those that are keeping it civil.

 

[TxRad]

agnostic, yes that would be me. Yes I believe in a higher power but I won't and can't call it a deity.

I was brought up going to church but when the deacons on the front row started to look down their noses at me and others, I kind of lost it one Sunday and pointed out the lady sitting next to them was not the woman on their lap at the clubs the night before.

The old saying about there being no atheists in a fox hole is the main reason I'm an agnostic. There are no atheists in a foxhole but after a while you get a lot of agnostics. I'll leave the reasoning for someone else because I don't want to go there.

Last but not least, I have no problem with religion if that is your thing. My problem is with churches. Most do more harm than good.

That's my take on religion, pure and simple.

 

[bashfullyshameless]

In the Christian churches, I don't see a body that worships God. I see a body that tries to defend their actions by using the Bible. They believe that it is the word of God but don't see any error in just following portions of the book. Nor do they seem to understand that the book has been rewritten many, many times over the centuries. I see much of the same thing in many of the Islamic beliefs as well. (How a faith can so willingly abuse women as an act of religious belief boggles my mind.)

It's not an act of religion. It's EXACTLY what you see in the Christian churches you speak of; it's the use of a religious text to justify doing what people just want to do anyway. It's the same with homophobia, it's the same with the effort to exclude science from our schools, and it's the same angle that was used to justify slavery for far too long. It's an act of control, and hate, and fear & paranoia, with a religious text used as a shield so those who abuse others can do so and still convince themselves that they're the good guys.

 

[Darkniciad]

Those who can -- do. Those who can't start a religion and sponge off everyone else for the rest of their lives.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm a Satanist of the Levay school of thought which is more philosophy than practice.

This is not to say I have no morals I have as many as anyone, but their based on my concept of right and wrong, no one else.

I believe in the black flame a power source living within all of us that we can tap for desired effect.

In a sense I believe that we are all our own gods and at the end of the day are only liable to ourselves no one else.

 

[desertslave]

HinH, my experiences mirror yours very closely. I was raised Lutheran, enjoyed Sunday school, got very enthused as a young teen, and then seriously disillusioned due to two schisms in a period of 3-4 years. I went from considering seminary to fuck it all in about 6 months' time.

I church-hopped with friends of mine for a while...Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal...and attended several bar/bat mitzvahs for Jewish friends. Nothing felt right to me. I looked into pagan/Wiccan groups, which resonated better. I've read Buddhist and Taoist texts.

I'm basically a 'nice' person who believes that being kind is important simply because it IS. No reason, no explanation beyond the fact that there should be more good in the world to offset the bad. Not out of fear of a deity, not to gain approval, but just because.

I've raised my kids that way, and I'm quite proud of them because they ARE kind, generous and generally unselfish, thoughtful people. My son feels that he's atheist, and I won't argue. My daughter leans towards paganism. She took a comparative religion class, though, and had to visit several religious services. The one that spoke to her the most was at a nearby Mennonite church. I had to chuckle at that, because my family, just a few generations back on my Dad's side, is Mennonite and Amish (from Lancaster Co., PA, where they first settled historically). I guess I still have that 'keep it simple' thing in my soul somewhere.

I agree with the last part of LC's post. If there IS deity, I think that it's within ourselves. We have the power to shape our world, for good or ill. I like making it better, whether it's through teaching, music, art, nursing, etc.

 

[johneb87]

I'm basically a 'nice' person who believes that being kind is important simply because it IS. No reason, no explanation beyond the fact that there should be more good in the world to offset the bad. Not out of fear of a deity, not to gain approval, but just because.

You hit the nail on the head there. I think simply following Wheaton's Law (Don't Be a Dick) would do far more good in the world than any organized religion ever could.

 

[litfan10]

Wonderful thread Hubs!

I was born Methodist. During and after college I had so many friends die in conflicts in the middle east (and except for a high school basketball knee injury, I could have been one of them) in the name of God that it made me wonder.

I spent many years after I graduated visiting any and all denominations' churches/temples etc developing a world view so to speak, and met many wonderful people and many assholes to find religion itself had nothing to do with it.

Through my marriage I was Catholic for my family and was happy in the role I could play in my church community. Sadly as I got to know the Catholic organization better it really soured my view. I had so many men who were supposed to be "guardians of the masses" lie to my face when we both knew it was lies that I couldn't tolerate the hypocrisy so evident at so many different levels.

As such I now believe in the need for all beings to treat each other as sacred. It is our responsibility and our actions that lead to the greater good of all. Biases need to be left at the door and substituted by true and unconditional love for all.

That is my religion.

Namaste'

 

[LadyVer]

Interesting post, Hubs. I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. I grew up in the church. I don't currently attend because polics and organized religion have joined forces and it's on a collision course. I also don't like the hate that seems to be the defining idea that is coming from both politics and the church.

 

[topace]

I guess it's time to explain what I believe in.

Let me put it this way: I follow one simple rule in my life: Do no harm to anyone in any manner, being it thought, speech, or deed.

That doesn't mean I don't fantasize, but I never can condone rape or other violent deeds that hurt others, not even in my mind.

I do not believe in macro-evolution (too much evidence against it), but accept micro-evolution as it has been proven to be true. I do not care in how the universe was formed otherwise.

I also believe in the concept of "mind over matter" - that is that what you believe in your head affects how your body can interact with the world - no special powers, just the control of my feelings via logic (like the Vulcans from Star Trek).

Am I spiritual? Maybe, I'm still debating this myself. Grew up Christian, but saw it was just another form of control IMHO when I got older and was living on my own.

 

[Hubs_in_hose]

I think the speech that Adam Savage gave at the 2012 Reason Rally put a lot of what I feel into words. I think his closing statement hit the nail on the head:

And finally, I have concluded through careful empirical analysis and much thought that somebody is looking out for me, keeping track of what I think about things, forgiving me when I do less than I ought, giving me strength to shoot for more than I think I am capable of. I believe they know everything that I do and think, and they still love me. And I’ve concluded, after careful consideration, that this person keeping score is me.

Video of his speech:
http://youtu.be/O1nSuWztIrY

full text of speech

 

[topace]

I think the speech that Adam Savage gave at the 2012 Reason Rally put a lot of what I feel into words. I think his closing statement hit the nail on the head:


Video of his speech:
http://youtu.be/O1nSuWztIrY

full text of speech

At least that guy isn't someone I call a sheep!

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Was born and raised a Lutheran.

First time I cracked a textbook I called bullshit on religion and broke my parents' hearts. To me, I just didn't understand how they could believe (in the immortal words of George Carlin) in the cosmic jewish zombie in the sky. Especially when scientists had figured out the truth.


Later, I forgave them and became agnostic. Partially because I just wasn't sure what to believe, and partially because of how ANGRY some people can get when you say that they are atheist. Then I switched back to atheist after some really horrible behavior at my old church.

We nearly got a lesbian pastor. The ELCA made it okay for gay and lesbian pastors to practice even with their partners, and we nearly got Laura and her partner to move to our church. The bastards signed a petition to make sure that it never got to a vote.

Proud atheist. But I honestly don't mind if you're religious. As long as you don't use an ancient poorly-edited poorly-written tome to justify being a royal dick.

 

[TE999]

I was baptized and raised as a Catholic, but when I had a choice I stopped going to church. I didn't feel the need to go and still don't. I've attended Baptist and Lutheran services and I never felt the need to return there either.

I don't like being told what to believe in and what will happen to me if I don't. Hypocrisy of word and deed runs rampant among the so-called faithful and the self styled Simon-pure among us.

As Karl Marx once said "Religion is ... the opium of the people" and in a larger sense it's true. Religion can be a comfort, a crutch, a refuge, an excuse for conduct and convey a sense of belonging. It can be compassionate or cruel, forgiving or judgmental, a comfort or a curse simply because it's the people and not some ethereal being controlling events.

I always try to make things better today instead of thinking things will be better tomorrow because it's out of the hands of Man. Tomorrow never comes and it's up to you to improve your own lot in life now.

 

[MSTarot]

I was raised in a house where adults never raised their voices unless they were angry. When i was a very young child my Aunt took me to a fire and brim stone southern Baptist church for Easter services. The preacher scared the hell out of me!

That event colored my perception of religion as I grew older. I didn't want to go to church and when I was made to I didn't accept the near brain washing that takes place here in the south.

Told someone i was an agnostic once. His reply, rather heated at that, was "but you believe in Jesus don't you?"

I told him I have no problem with Jesus...I just don't like his fan club.

That phrase nearly cost me my job. I like freedom of religion, but we also need freedom from religion

 

[SamScribble]

Recently, three separate people of my acquaintance have tried to argue that without religion there can be no morality. I’m afraid this is not an argument that I even begin to buy.

 

[DeeZire]

While I'm not a big fan of reducing complicated concepts down to a bumper sticker slogan, in the case of religion, I think it's perfectly appropriate

God didn't make man, man made gods.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I'm pretty much an "irrelevantist;" I don't believe in any deity nor do I need one in the world. Growing up an RC, I was taught that "God created man in his image and likeness;" as an anthropologist studying comparative religion, I find it quite clear that "man creates god in his image and likeness." For some reason or other (he said facetiously), people's deities always seem to like what the people think they should do.
And trying to be practical about it, given so many believers in the world, I think we should return to King James' edict on religious freedom in New York for 1642: all were free to follow whatever beliefs they had as long as they didn't bother anyone else.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Recently, three separate people of my acquaintance have tried to argue that without religion there can be no morality. I’m afraid this is not an argument that I even begin to buy.

When I was chairman of a school board's education committee, we were re-writing the moral education policy, and an older member objected to my leaving god out of it.

"Without God," she said, "what's to stop you from murdering me?"

I was aghast. "I"ve never even thought of killing you," I replied. "and now you tell me the only reason you don't kill me is because of your god. What will I do if he changes his mind?"

I'd much rather have people be nice, or at least not kill me, because that's how they, not their deities, feel about it.

 

[nicecthulhu]

I've been an atheist since I was a teenager, so that would be about 30 years now. It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist.
I've known people of various Christian sects that were very pushy about their version of Truth being the only proper one. I've known atheists who think anyone who believes in a supernatural being is stupid.
I've discussed religion with a born again Christian who was respectful of my beliefs. I've discussed religion with my wife, who has been a Christian all of her life and has a very strong faith. I have no interest in changing her mind and she has no interest (well, very little interest) in changing mine.
Intolerance can be found in anyone no matter what their belief system and atheism, monotheism and polytheism are belief systems with no basis in fact. Having a belief system is a part of being human.
Science can neither prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being. Science and belief are two separate frameworks of human consciousness.
There have been people who were far smarter than I that had different views on religion.
How you behave is far more important than your religious beliefs.