Rejected over reluctance issue!!

[silkmink]

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE MESSAGE!

I submitted a story based on the television show Supernatural earlier this year and it got rejected because of paragraph spacing. I was informed that I should consult with a volunteer editor. I found an awesome one. She has a lot of experience with Literotica writers. We worked together extensively and I got 7 chapters written. I have had over 100 people tell me how awesome the story is. I decided it was time to submit it again and again, it was rejected. Here is the letter I got:

Dear Writer,

Thank you for your submission to Literotica. We appreciate the time and effort you've taken to write a story and submit it to our site. However, we've found that we cannot post your submission in its current form. The checklist below may help you in re-examining your manuscript.

We do not publish stories involving real-life people or copyrighted characters in non-consensual or reluctant situations.

Please feel free to re-submit the story after a Volunteer Editor has examined it, or after you've made revisions. You can find a list of Volunteer Editors here.

Please consult our Writer's Resources section and make sure you read our submission guidelines:

If you have any questions on these, please let us know.

Thanks for your time, and look forward to reading you again!

Laurel & Manu
Literotica.Com

*******
My response (which has not been answered):


Dear Literotica team,

I am confused about my rejection. I submitted this "Supernatural" based story last summer and I was rejected because the paragraphs were not spaced out enough and I was encouraged to find an editor from the list of volunteer editors on your site. I did and she helped me tremendously. I have 7 chapters written, edited and well spaced.

I resubmitted the story yesterday and got rejected on the basis that copyrighted characters can't be involved in "non-consensual or reluctant situations." If this is the case, why wasn't I told the first time I submitted instead of working so hard to get it right only to have another completely unrelated rejection reason? I've read your submission guidelines 5 times and I don't see your rejection reason (reluctance involving copyrighted characters) listed there. Is there another list of do's and don'ts that I missed?

Incidentally, “non-consensual” and “reluctant” are two completely different things. I see how they're similar but one implies rape and the other can be like a husband wants to have sex with his wife and she's had a bad day and so she's reluctant but then he buys her flowers and she's all about it.

Another thing that has me confused is how is writing about a character, that was created by the original writer as heterosexual, being both gay AND incestuous allowable? In my story Sam is very attracted to the female demon but reluctant because of the underlying implications of sex with a demon but eventually he is freed and HE is the one who penetrates his captor without being forced to. I'm curious, is this a legal issue? I'd like to know in case I publish elsewhere. If it is, what can I say? I am flabbergasted that homosexual incest between two copyrighted heterosexual siblings is allowable.

One last thing, speaking of writing heterosexual characters as homosexual, in one story published on your site, I read the following line in a story based on the television show "Supernatural."

"Sam was mortified to be spread out like a buffet in front of his brother. He refused to acknowledge that he was also turned on by it, doing his best to ignore his obvious, heavy erection. Despite having tried already, Sam's hands flexed, testing the wrist restraints; his thighs tensed, pressing against the straps."

Judging by this description, I would say there is some serious reluctance going on there.

In another "Supernatural" story that you admitted to your site I read these lines...

"All my reservations, my inhibitions, go flying. It must be the curse. Right? Ah, who cares! I explore every part of his mouth with my tongue, every part of his face with my lips. "

"Reservations"? "Inhibitions"? are these not synonyms for "Reluctance"?

If Sam was restrained and his brother teased him and stroked him to arousal, would that be alright?

To me, these two excerpts sound like reluctance. Reluctance not just to the sex but reluctance to gay sex and reluctance to having sex with his own brother. Again, how is this different? Please explain.

Thank you for your time.

*************

One last note (this is not in the message I sent them)

Both the excerpts I used in my message are referring to incest between the two brothers (Sam and Dean Winchester).

Also, In my story, Sam Winchester is chained up and when the demon (in the body of a human female) interacts with him, he is reluctant but is clearly aroused. She does not "force" him to do anything.

 

[zaleska1]

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE MESSAGE!

I submitted a story based on the television show Supernatural earlier this year and it got rejected because of paragraph spacing. I was informed that I should consult with a volunteer editor. I found an awesome one. She has a lot of experience with Literotica writers. We worked together extensively and I got 7 chapters written. I have had over 100 people tell me how awesome the story is. I decided it was time to submit it again and again, it was rejected. Here is the letter I got:

Dear Writer,

Thank you for your submission to Literotica. We appreciate the time and effort you've taken to write a story and submit it to our site. However, we've found that we cannot post your submission in its current form. The checklist below may help you in re-examining your manuscript.

We do not publish stories involving real-life people or copyrighted characters in non-consensual or reluctant situations.

Please feel free to re-submit the story after a Volunteer Editor has examined it, or after you've made revisions. You can find a list of Volunteer Editors here.

Please consult our Writer's Resources section and make sure you read our submission guidelines:

If you have any questions on these, please let us know.

Thanks for your time, and look forward to reading you again!

Laurel & Manu
Literotica.Com

*******
My response (which has not been answered):


Dear Literotica team,

I am confused about my rejection. I submitted this "Supernatural" based story last summer and I was rejected because the paragraphs were not spaced out enough and I was encouraged to find an editor from the list of volunteer editors on your site. I did and she helped me tremendously. I have 7 chapters written, edited and well spaced.

I resubmitted the story yesterday and got rejected on the basis that copyrighted characters can't be involved in "non-consensual or reluctant situations." If this is the case, why wasn't I told the first time I submitted instead of working so hard to get it right only to have another completely unrelated rejection reason? I've read your submission guidelines 5 times and I don't see your rejection reason (reluctance involving copyrighted characters) listed there. Is there another list of do's and don'ts that I missed?

Incidentally, “non-consensual” and “reluctant” are two completely different things. I see how they're similar but one implies rape and the other can be like a husband wants to have sex with his wife and she's had a bad day and so she's reluctant but then he buys her flowers and she's all about it.

Another thing that has me confused is how is writing about a character, that was created by the original writer as heterosexual, being both gay AND incestuous allowable? In my story Sam is very attracted to the female demon but reluctant because of the underlying implications of sex with a demon but eventually he is freed and HE is the one who penetrates his captor without being forced to. I'm curious, is this a legal issue? I'd like to know in case I publish elsewhere. If it is, what can I say? I am flabbergasted that homosexual incest between two copyrighted heterosexual siblings is allowable.

One last thing, speaking of writing heterosexual characters as homosexual, in one story published on your site, I read the following line in a story based on the television show "Supernatural."

"Sam was mortified to be spread out like a buffet in front of his brother. He refused to acknowledge that he was also turned on by it, doing his best to ignore his obvious, heavy erection. Despite having tried already, Sam's hands flexed, testing the wrist restraints; his thighs tensed, pressing against the straps."

Judging by this description, I would say there is some serious reluctance going on there.

In another "Supernatural" story that you admitted to your site I read these lines...

"All my reservations, my inhibitions, go flying. It must be the curse. Right? Ah, who cares! I explore every part of his mouth with my tongue, every part of his face with my lips. "

"Reservations"? "Inhibitions"? are these not synonyms for "Reluctance"?

If Sam was restrained and his brother teased him and stroked him to arousal, would that be alright?

To me, these two excerpts sound like reluctance. Reluctance not just to the sex but reluctance to gay sex and reluctance to having sex with his own brother. Again, how is this different? Please explain.

Thank you for your time.

*************

One last note (this is not in the message I sent them)

Both the excerpts I used in my message are referring to incest between the two brothers (Sam and Dean Winchester).

Also, In my story, Sam Winchester is chained up and when the demon (in the body of a human female) interacts with him, he is reluctant but is clearly aroused. She does not "force" him to do anything.

Silkmink
I do understand your frustration at having put a lot of work into your story only to have it rejected twice. Unfortunately this happens all the time in the publishing world, at least it has not been returned as 'not publishing quality'.
As a professional screenwriter I guess I would be seriously pissed if somebody messed with any of my creations without my permission and characters in a television series will be subject to international copyright owned by the production company and/or creator.
If you have a good story then it will stand on it's own with characters and a background of your own creation, you should not need to piggy-back on another writers work.

 

[sr71plt]

You didn't get rejected for reluctance. You got rejected for using a taboo character. To the question of why this wasn't pointed out in the first rejection, the story was probably rejected for the first issue observed. There was no particular reason for the editor to look more closely at something she was rejecting at that point anyway. She's got a big load of stories to pass through every day.

 

[lovecraft68]

We do not publish stories involving real-life people or copyrighted characters in non-consensual or reluctant situations.


I think this is it, right here. It has nothing to do with reluctance, its whoever your character is or too closely resembles.

Your reluctance was portrayed fine and the site is okay with reluctance.

Its rape they take an issue w....

Yeah, I can't even finish that sentence. They could care less about rape.

It's your character and they are telling you that pretty plainly.

 

[silkmink]

Silkmink
I do understand your frustration at having put a lot of work into your story only to have it rejected twice. Unfortunately this happens all the time in the publishing world, at least it has not been returned as 'not publishing quality'.
As a professional screenwriter I guess I would be seriously pissed if somebody messed with any of my creations without my permission and characters in a television series will be subject to international copyright owned by the production company and/or creator.
If you have a good story then it will stand on it's own with characters and a background of your own creation, you should not need to piggy-back on another writers work.

Dear Zaleska,

Thank you for your reply but you're not really addressing the point of my post. I understand if you don't like people "piggy-back"ing on the work of an established writer/creator. I respect your opinion on fan fiction but with all due respect, your opinion on fan fiction is none of my concern. I am seriously not trying to be a b*tch but I am not interested in launching into a discussion about whether or not fan fiction is a legitimate thing. I write about Supernatural because the two main characters inspire me to write erotica. I only started writing because if I didn't get these stories out of my head I was going to explode. I am not interested in writing erotica about anything else. I have several published authors as friends who like my work and I've even told them that, in my opinion, fan fiction is "lazy" writing. All the background and subtext has been done or me. I don't even have to describe the characters in great detail. So, I am not looking to be published professionally nor do I think that what I do could ever be considered legitimate literature. I write, pretty much, exclusively for fans of the show and I give all the credit to Eric Kripke for his writing and creation of the show and characters.
That said, I would like to read what people have to say about this issue of reluctance with copyrighted characters being allowed in some stories but not in mine. In the actual show there is a scene where the same character I write about is coerced into sex with a demon. Like my story, he has serious hesitation and she entices him until his animal urges get the better of him. This theme is used constantly in fan fic about Supernatural. What you will NEVER see on the show is either of the two lead characters engage in homosexual activity or homosexual incest. I have no problem with homosexual erotica but honestly (in my opinion) rewriting the very nature of an established character is "cheating" and incest? That's just gross. Seriously. However, the Literotica team have no issue with the established and copyrighted characters doing something they would never do as written by the creator but not okay with themes that actually happen on the show.

 

[sr71plt]

You seem to be avoiding the simple point too. The privately owned Web site reserves the right not to post stories about characters they consider taboo. Case closed.

 

[silkmink]

To those of you who are writing that the problem is that they do not publish stories about copyrighted characters and reluctance, I think you may have missed the part of my post where I included two excerpts from two different stories about Supernatural POSTED ON LITEROTICA RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT, that use the exact same characters I am using that involve reluctance. Let me post them again.

"Sam was mortified to be spread out like a buffet in front of his brother. He refused to acknowledge that he was also turned on by it, doing his best to ignore his obvious, heavy erection. Despite having tried already, Sam's hands flexed, testing the wrist restraints; his thighs tensed, pressing against the straps."

The last sentence illustrates the character wanting to get away. He doesn't "get into it" until his brother's dick is inside of him. That is straight up RAPE!!

Here's another story about Supernatural posted on this site.

"All my reservations, my inhibitions, go flying. It must be the curse. Right? Ah, who cares! I explore every part of his mouth with my tongue, every part of his face with my lips. "

To me, these two excerpts sound like reluctance. Reluctance not just to the sex but reluctance to gay sex and reluctance to having sex with his own brother. Again, how is this different? Please explain.

 

[silkmink]

You seem to be avoiding the simple point too. The privately owned Web site reserves the right not to post stories about characters they consider taboo. Case closed.

sr71plt, You are 100% correct but if that is the case, don't give me a bullshit reason that clearly does not apply to other authors. Fine, let them say, "F*ck you, we don't want to publish your story because we just don't feel like it." or "We just think you're a crappy writer" or whatever. I'm not saying that they have no right, I am saying that they (and all people) should be true to their very own standards and if they're not, I think they should be called out.
Incidentally, I have two stories published on another site. One, posted last July has 1147 hits and the other posted last Friday already has 172 hits. And yes yes yes, before you all say "If you're published elsewhere why don't you F off and quit b*tching about Literotica. My point is that they are being hypocritical and I find that frustrating.

 

[sr71plt]

If you want to talk to the Web site owners, send a PM to Laurel (top right of this page). Yammering about it here is just spitting (and I do mean spitting) in the wind. I don't feel your pain because you're being so pissy about it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

sr71plt, You are 100% correct but if that is the case, don't give me a bullshit reason that clearly does not apply to other authors. Fine, let them say, "F*ck you, we don't want to publish your story because we just don't feel like it." or "We just think you're a crappy writer" or whatever. I'm not saying that they have no right, I am saying that they (and all people) should be true to their very own standards and if they're not, I think they should be called out.

Unless you've run over Laurel's dog or something, it's highly unlikely they're picking on you personally. The inconsistency is more likely just because mods are human, and humans aren't 100% consistent. Maybe they missed stuff when they read other people's work; maybe they decided to change the rules and didn't feel like going back through tens of thousands of stories to find old stuff that no longer fits the rules.

 

[silkmink]

You seem to be avoiding the simple point too. The privately owned Web site reserves the right not to post stories about characters they consider taboo. Case closed.

Dearest sr71plt,

Let me get this clear. I'm being "pissy" because I have an issue with hypocrisy? I'm just about 100% sure that if we met on the street and were just having a conversation and I told you a story of someone or some organization being hypocritical (like, say your average Republican), you would agree that it was fucked up. I'm actually a very reasonable adult woman. I have a good education, an infectious sense of humor and a great job in journalism with one of the largest news organizations in the world. I'm not some dumb kid who thinks my smut stories are on par with Hemingway. It's masturbation material for fuck's sake. I would be completely and totally fine with having someone tell me my stories are shit. It is, after all, subjective.

Let me reiterate; I am not irritated because Literotica rejected my story but because the reason for their rejection implies hypocrisy. Incidentally, I have since been told that because there are several different moderators there can be discrepancies. And it's true that going back over thousands of stories to see if they comply with all the rules would be ludicrous if not impossible. That said, I find it hard to believe that hypocrisy doesn't bother you. Hell, even hypocrites hate hypocrisy. (And I'm not implying that you are a hypocrite.)

By the way, it may (but probably not) interest you to know that most experts on body language agree that the words one uses constitute a miniscule amount of insight into the actual intent of their message. Unless you can see a person's body and face as well as hear their tone, you are only getting a fraction of the true meaning. You have no idea about what my true tone was in writing my initial post or my subsequent replies. I should have perhaps used emoticons. In summation, your perception of me and the tone of my message is, in effect, as important to me as it would be from someone with Asperger's disease. Try not to assess too much based on the written word.

Kind regards from a seriously not pissed off person.

 

[silkmink]

You make a lot of sense Bramblethorn. I don't believe they are personally singling me out. I'm sure that if anyone (right now) submitted a story with copyrighted characters involved in reluctance that they would be rejected as well.

 

[silkmink]

Oh and sr71plt? I would say that my "yammering" (as you so eloquently put it) falls under that troublesome (to people like you) category of that whole freedom of speech thing. If you don't like my "yammering" why don't you kindly fuck off from this thread. And I say this with all due respect.

 

[FallingToFly]

What category did you submit to?

If you submitted to any other category besides Celebrities, you probably got rejected based on that, because they won't post fanfiction as anything except fanfiction. (Speaking from experience here, I posted my first fanfiction to the Romance category and got rejected- resubmitted it as Celebrity and it went through just fine.)

It's a CYA thing- there is a disclaimer at the top of every Celeb story posted by the site, and many FF writers post their own disclaimer as well- they own nothing, they're just writing this for fun, and it is in no way an accurate or true reflection of or story about the character/celebrity.

 

[sr71plt]

If you submitted to any other category besides Celebrities, you probably got rejected based on that, because they won't post fanfiction as anything except fanfiction.

I doubt that. If the story was otherwise acceptable, I think Laurel would have just changed the category. There most likely was something involving the celebrity character that the site wouldn't permit. Of course the OP came out of the gate claiming the rejection was for reluctance (which doesn't get rejected here).

(And I see that the yammering just goes on and on. )

 

[MatthewVett]

Oh and sr71plt? I would say that my "yammering" (as you so eloquently put it) falls under that troublesome (to people like you) category of that whole freedom of speech thing. If you don't like my "yammering" why don't you kindly fuck off from this thread. And I say this with all due respect.

sr71plt isn't a government or official body, and he has no obligation to allow you free speech. I think you misunderstand the concept. It's the same reason why Literotica can ban you and my newspaper doesn't have to publish my letters to the editors about the Rushkies infiltrating American society. The more you know...

 

[sr71plt]

sr71plt isn't a government or official body, and he has no obligation to allow you free speech. I think you misunderstand the concept. It's the same reason why Literotica can ban you and my newspaper doesn't have to publish my letters to the editors about the Rushkies infiltrating American society. The more you know...

Thanks. I posted to the thread to try to help her. Apparently she doesn't want to be helped.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yet again another example of someone confused and frustrated with literotica's legendary inconsistency and yet that person is now the target.

To the OP here is how lit works in a real life analogy.

A security guard watches someone steal a TV right in front of them, just walks out the door. You say "That's against the rules!" Guard shrugs.

You sit and watch 5 other people all walk out without paying for anything and the guard just sits there.

You say "screw it" and take something.

The guard stops you and wants to arrest you for stealing, "But what about those other people?" you ask.

"Oh, well I felt like paying attention this time!" the guard says

Then the people around you say "Yeah, stop whining"

The owner of this site barely looks at the stories, she probably catches one out of every 20 "rule breaking stories" and the boot lickers here have no idea why the one person "caught" gets aggravated.

So just wander off and my suggestion is to keep submitting the story until it gets through because it will.

 

[zaleska1]

Silkmink,
Have you considered a message to Lauren asking her POLITELY to explain in detail what caused the rejection, and perhaps requesting that she reviews the submission again.

I do realise that often these forums are used as rant-pits for spit fights rather than genuinely seeking help but if you really want to resolve the situation then take it to the source.

 

[sr71plt]

Not really. More another person with a high sense of what their "entitlement" should be for free. She was politely helped and just kept on railing. Just one of those refusing to accept the reality of the nature of privately owned free-use sites. She's the one who kept on pushing it.

Of course you now are--but you've got a different agenda. You don't really give a shit about her, do you? Where were you in trying to help her work out what her actual problem was? You just regurgitated what I posted and then went off on your totally irrelevant rape rant.

Vulture much?

 

[zaleska1]

Not really. More another person with a high sense of what their "entitlement" should be for free. She was politely helped and just kept on railing. Just one of those refusing to accept the reality of the nature of privately owned free-use sites. She's the one who kept on pushing it.

Of course you now are--but you've got a different agenda. You don't really give a shit about her, do you? Where were you in trying to help her work out what her actual problem was? You just regurgitated what I posted and then went off on your totally irrelevant rape rant.

Vulture much?

Rape rant?

I guess these threads are just another 'handbags at dawn' forum.

Do not think I shall bother any more.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm dying to know what a "handbags at dawn" forum is.

And, yes, LC used the thread to peddle his rant on rape stories again:

Your reluctance was portrayed fine and the site is okay with reluctance.
Its rape they take an issue w....
Yeah, I can't even finish that sentence. They could care less about rape.

 

[jeremiahj]

I'm dying to know what a "handbags at dawn" forum is.

And, yes, LC used the thread to peddle his rant on rape stories again:

Your reluctance was portrayed fine and the site is okay with reluctance.
Its rape they take an issue w....
Yeah, I can't even finish that sentence. They could care less about rape.

Handbags at Dawn

It's a British expression, a purse is called a handbag in the UK. A play on 'Pistols at Dawn' but is used as a mocking expression for a 'cat fight', particularly when a childish arument has got spiteful or bitchy. I think that it originated with either Monty Python or Benny Hill and was a comedic sketch of two call girls fighting a duel with their bags/purses.

I just happen onto this post and have no interest in the content.

 

[sr71plt]

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[Pure]

Note

I think silkmink's issues have received enough attention. If the thread is become 'free speech' bickering, I'm moving it to GB.

pure.
mod