Rejected for relationship between minors

[JT750]

So I've had a second rejection on my first story submission over a story point involving a brother & sister and their cousin when they were in their early teens playing a game of truth or dare. The excerpt itself is brief, vague, and non-sexual (quoted below):

Oh crap, yeah, I remember it all. Harmless kids stuff, really... curious exploration. Between the three of us, I was fourteen, Traci was thirteen, and Candy was twelve. Its the kind of stuff you try not to think about because it was embarrassing and you hope that no one else remembers it or at least never talks about it either.

"We did things that summer I wasn't really comfortable with... looking at each other naked... I remember Traci daring me to kiss you on the lips and you seemed to like it. And I remember the time we came back from swim class and I went to my room to change and, instead of going to your's, you followed me into my room to watch."

"Yeah... I remember. But I didn't do anything then."

"You wanted to watch me undress. You pulled down your trunks to show me your weener first... and it was bigger than the last time I'd seen it. I didn't even know what a hard on was then, but I knew enough to be freaked out." I nodded, not knowing how to apologize. Clearly she'd been repressing this for awhile and tonight brought it all back.

Does this really constitute a sexual relationship between minors? If so, I'm having a hard time with stories which have already been submitted and been accepted which have similar themes or stronger behavior.

---------------

For example, the story Free Show by Fever...
http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/fs_i_1172_h0.shtml

The basis of the story involves skinny dipping at the creek in their early teens, discusses peeping and one sibling's masturbatory pleasure around puberty when the other sibling became more modest, and vaguely transitions the "free show" game beginning at some point and ending well into adulthood. That's a pretty tame comparison, I think... but still involves minors.

---------------

Then we have the story Mindy Fucks Pt I by Tristan...
http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/mfii_i_863_e0.shtml

In this story, we have a father walking in on his wife who is in bed masturbating... watching their 17 year old daughter on a hidden closed-circuit TV. The 17 year old daughter is also masturbating and vocalizing her lust for her father, unaware that she's being watched. This all sets the stage for her 18th birthday present later on.

---------------

There's also three parts to Growing Up With Sis by IndianAsian...
part 1: http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/guwsi_i_7_f9.shtml
part 2: http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/guwsii_i_7_f9.shtml
part 3: http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/guwsiii_i_7_f9.shtml

In this story, the older sister's friends are mentioned as being 14 or 15 while the protagonist of the story is a 12 year old boy. Only one season changes (summer into autumn) from when the ages are mentioned. Initial relationship between sis's younger brother and her friends begins with just kissing. In part 2, couple months later, the boy overhears his sister and a friend in her room with what he later discovers to be a vibrator and sex manual and begins his own discovery of self-pleasure. Soon after, he's pleasuring himself to the sight of his naked sister and her friend in the pool... In part 3, the action picks up later that same day with the sister and her friend walking in on the naked 12 year old boy with the friend laying hands upon his "turgid rock" and caressing and later his sister grabbing him less gently in the same place... and building up to a more intense encounter with her later --though no part 4 is available, so to find out what happens next, the author recommends:

"To know what happened between us ...
Mail me with u r FANTASIES..."

So is what I wrote more against the minors policy than these stories? The policy of no sexual relationships between persons under 18 seems pretty straightforward, but the enforcement of it seems somewhat varied. Like what constitutes a sexual relationship? Are different people involved in the decision making process when reviewing newly submitted stories, and/or do they use their own individual personal discretion which varies from reviewer to reviewer?

 

[emap]

You may not need to adjust anything and simply put a note in saying all participants of sex acts graphically described are over 18. Probably better if you simply put in there that you are both over 18, like a reference to her 18th birthday last week or whatever.

When it comes to underage they err on the side of caution, as in if a character is acting underage or there is mention of underage sexual activities and no clear fast forward to 18 or older you will be rejected.

As an example, my zombie sex story was rejected at first because I did not make a strong enough mention of her age. I simply added in a mention of graduating high school and bam it is accepted. It's usually not that hard, Though there are instances where it does require often mentions of age, usually when you are talking two adults roleplaying one being young.

 

[JT750]

Actually, earlier in the story, its clearly stated that both brother and sister are 20 and 18 (respectively). The excerpt from my own story references them remembering back to the more innocent game of truth or dare when they were 14 and 12.

 

[emap]

Then you either need to restate after the flashback their current age or make the flashback ending clearer because apparently there was confusion.

 

[CopperSkink]

I haven't been caught yet because I haven't bothered to submit anything so far, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. My characters grow up, have children, and keep mussing around, and eventually the children get to be "that age" and do adult stuff themselves. Far down enough, children of some characters are quite a few years older than children of others, and the two end up interracting on occasion while the older one fucks around. I'm sure that, at some point or another, the site editers will be more than curious what those underaged characters are doing in a story of an adult nature, and then doing adult things in the very next story, despite me mentioning that a good seven years have passed.

When it comes to under-aged material, we as a public would rather not know. At worst, a "we fooled around as kids, now we're embarassed around each other." While you make a good argument (there's a certain story that existed on Literotica for a number of years with two characters 16 and 17 throughout its five chapters), some stories do slip through the cracks, and some site editers are more forgiving than others. It may be you got two (or the same) crabby ones, but trying to make the same argument to them will probably be about as valuable a way to spend your time as shitting into your hand.

Take the previous advice, making it nice and clear that actors are currently of-age, and that any 14 this or 15 that is only a brief allusion. From your exerpt, I doubt your story would suffer much if you chopped it down to a sentence or two that's substantially less graphic. Remember: When it comes to the rules, it's up to the authority doing the interpreting, not how well you argue.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

So I've had a second rejection on my first story submission over a story point involving a brother & sister and their cousin when they were in their early teens playing a game of truth or dare. The excerpt itself is brief, vague, and non-sexual (quoted below):

"You wanted to watch me undress. You pulled down your trunks to show me your weener first... and it was bigger than the last time I'd seen it. I didn't even know what a hard on was then, but I knew enough to be freaked out." I nodded, not knowing how to apologize. Clearly she'd been repressing this for awhile and tonight brought it all back.

Does this really constitute a sexual relationship between minors? ...

In the eyes of a frightened story approver, on a bad day, yes.

... If so, I'm having a hard time with stories which have already been submitted and been accepted which have similar themes or stronger behavior.
For example, the story Free Show by Fever...
http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/fs_i_1172_h0.shtml

The basis of the story involves skinny dipping at the creek in their early teens, discusses peeping and one sibling's masturbatory pleasure around puberty when the other sibling became more modest, and vaguely transitions the "free show" game beginning at some point and ending well into adulthood. That's a pretty tame comparison, I think... but still involves minors.
...

The under-18 masturbation would make this story unacceptable to Lit and if you report it they will pull it, and may ban the author.

If so, I'm having a hard time with stories which have already been submitted and been accepted which have similar themes or stronger behavior.
...
Then we have the story Mindy Fucks Pt I by Tristan...
http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/mfii_i_863_e0.shtml

In this story, we have a father walking in on his wife who is in bed masturbating... watching their 17 year old daughter on a hidden closed-circuit TV. The 17 year old daughter is also masturbating and vocalizing her lust for her father, unaware that she's being watched. This all sets the stage for her 18th birthday present later on.
...

The under-18 masturbation would make this story unacceptable to Lit and if you report it they will pull it, and may ban the author.

... If so, I'm having a hard time with stories which have already been submitted and been accepted which have similar themes or stronger behavior.
...
There's also three parts to Growing Up With Sis by IndianAsian...
part 1: http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/guwsi_i_7_f9.shtml
part 2: http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/guwsii_i_7_f9.shtml
part 3: http://www.literotica.com/storyxs/stories/guwsiii_i_7_f9.shtml

In this story, the older sister's friends are mentioned as being 14 or 15 while the protagonist of the story is a 12 year old boy. Only one season changes (summer into autumn) from when the ages are mentioned. Initial relationship between sis's younger brother and her friends begins with just kissing. In part 2, couple months later, the boy overhears his sister and a friend in her room with what he later discovers to be a vibrator and sex manual and begins his own discovery of self-pleasure. Soon after, he's pleasuring himself to the sight of his naked sister and her friend in the pool... In part 3, the action picks up later that same day with the sister and her friend walking in on the naked 12 year old boy with the friend laying hands upon his "turgid rock" and caressing and later his sister grabbing him less gently in the same place... and building up to a more intense encounter with her later ...

The under-age sex would certainly make this story unacceptable to Lit and neither the story, nor the author are still listed under the search facility, so I assume they have been banned.

... So is what I wrote more against the minors policy than these stories? ...

Not "more", just deemed "against".

... The policy of no sexual relationships between persons under 18 seems pretty straightforward, but the enforcement of it seems somewhat varied. Like what constitutes a sexual relationship? ...

Laurel gave the definitive answer on Under-18 at 06:20 UTC on 7th December 2002 in http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2151906#post2151906 and amplified it in http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=32096307#post32096307 at 08:53 UTC on 29th September 2009. She is the instantiation of the owners on this board.

... Are different people involved in the decision making process when reviewing newly submitted stories, and/or do they use their own individual personal discretion which varies from reviewer to reviewer?

There are still people who think that an individual using the pseudonym "Laurel" reviews all fifty or so new stories per day herself. Others, myself included, think that the first pass is an automated search for key words/phrases and that the company which owns this site (among others) employs more than one person to do the secondary vetting.

Having said all that emap's advice is good (but please don't tell her I admitted that).

 

[emap]

Ooooo oooooo I was actually right I was actually right. I am so going to print out this entire thread and past it to the wall so I can point it out and say see I was right then.

 

[Guest]

Ooooo oooooo I was actually right I was actually right. I am so going to print out this entire thread and past it to the wall so I can point it out and say see I was right then.

Hahahahahahahah.

sorry. I had a bad thread elsewhere and then came across this and it made me smile. Visions of you in front of the computer doing the Snoopy Dance.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... so I can point it out and say see I was right then.

Well I suppose in 5000+ posts, by the "law of averages" you must get something right eventually.

 

[emap]

Eeeekkkkk I passed 5000 and didn't even notice.

Darnit I was gonna do a 5000 thread and see what funny stuff the whole three posters left me.

 

[JT750]

For what its worth, I wasn't hoping to get the story approved based on how well I argued my point... rather, as this is my first submission, I'm just trying to get a clearer understanding of the whole process. Like I said, it seems pretty straightforward to say no sexual relationships between minors, but what exactly constitutes sexual relations and how close to the line can you get without crossing it?

 

[Guest]

You seem to have hit on a topic that has been done a couple times, and it seems that the posters of the original thread never found the answers they were looking for. I hope you do.

That being said, I think it best to err on the side of caution. Obviously, some stories are going to get through that are objectionable, and you may skirt the boundaries of what is acceptable and not, without getting caught. you may have to find the boundary yourself through trial and error.

I would hate, however for another thread to be started a year or two from now and see your name up there as an example of someone who "crossed the line" and being used as proof (for someone else) that sex with a minor is okay.

Simply put, I am not sure where the black and white "do not cross" line is from up close. I choose not to find out. I do sincerely hope that you find it, and are not penalized for it. I think they might ban or remove you completely for violations (if they're deemed bad enough by a censor).

Good luck

~Paul

 

[JT750]

Sex with minors bad. Curious teenagers seeing each other naked happens, though and can lead to shenanigans when they grow up... or, as is all too often the case these days, can lead to shenanigans sooner.


Anyhow, I wish the rejection explanations were a bit more specific. Its like, you have problems A, B, and E... either figure out what we're referring to on your own and fix it or have someone else look over your story. Wouldn't it be easier, since they spotted a problem to cite specifically what they've got a problem with? Well maybe not, but it would definitely be easier for the author. **sigh**


I've got some additional revision ideas in mind for the next re-sub, but I feel so frustrated that I want to spell out the characters' ages in every other sentence where any sort of contact is mentioned or even remote innuendo of sexual desire is hinted at. Of course, I'd rather not butcher my own story just for the sake of making an issue out of my frustration.

 

[Guest]

*snip*
Anyhow, I wish the rejection explanations were a bit more specific. Its like, you have problems A, B, and E... either figure out what we're referring to on your own and fix it or have someone else look over your story. Wouldn't it be easier, since they spotted a problem to cite specifically what they've got a problem with? Well maybe not, but it would definitely be easier for the author. **sigh**

I share your feelings on the blandness of the rejection notices, but they are, after all just digital form letters. They kind of have to fit for everyone. I don't think the editors (site, not volunteer) have time to go through and write lengthy explanations. Nothing would ever make it through because it would all be sitting in queue.

I've got some additional revision ideas in mind for the next re-sub, but I feel so frustrated that I want to spell out the characters' ages in every other sentence where any sort of contact is mentioned or even remote innuendo of sexual desire is hinted at. Of course, I'd rather not butcher my own story just for the sake of making an issue out of my frustration.

Sounds to me like you really need an editor, someone who can take the time to go through your story with you and provide feedback and answer questions. Maybe in real time, like IM or at least via email with revisions attached in a .DOC format. Try January's editor sticky. It should be up in a few days.

good luck.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... I'm just trying to get a clearer understanding of the whole process. Like I said, it seems pretty straightforward to say no sexual relationships between minors, but what exactly constitutes sexual relations and how close to the line can you get without crossing it?

As I said in my earlier post (giving links to the relevant threads), the best available information is:

Our decision to not accept stories that include scenes of sexual relations involving people under the age of 18 is not meant as a slight to those who write those stories, nor is it meant as a moral judgment on such stories. We do not feel comfortable posting stories involving sex with young children. Therefore, an age line had to be drawn. For convenience sake, we drew it at the age of consent in our area - 18 years of age. It's that simple.

We do not believe that ANY fiction should be banned or forbidden. We are staunchly against government censorship. However, we do have the right as a private entity to set our own rules. There are many sites which do accept stories involving underage persons, so there's no need for us to do so. ...

You can have underage people in stories, even in the erotic categories. Many characters in stories have children, younger family members, etc. who are part of the plot. However, they cannot be involved in sexual activity in any way - including (but not limited to) voyeurism (watching others have sex), exhibitionism (being watched), masturbation, and of course actual sex.

 

[JT750]

The under-18 masturbation would make this story unacceptable to Lit and if you report it they will pull it, and may ban the author.

The under-18 masturbation would make this story unacceptable to Lit and if you report it they will pull it, and may ban the author.

So how does one go about reporting individual stories? I don't want to get authors in trouble, but if its against the rules then leaving such stories up sets a bad example for other writers looking at existing stories to see what will fly and what won't.

Really, the authors shouldn't be banned since its the fault of whomever approved the stories. Its not like the writers got a blind approval then slipped in and changed their stories to break the rule after the fact... unless they somehow did, then that would be wrong and should be punished. But whoever read the stories in question and gave them the green light should be held accountable for letting such violations slip by.

 

[CopperSkink]

Then we're getting into universal law, where one person who gets more law than others demands equal law be imposed on everyone else. There's some leniancy, some strictness, but overall there aren't any "Remember how I said I was fifteen? I'm actually thirteen," stories or people mating with dolphins or anything.

One or two stories with someone five minutes (or even a day) away from turning eighteen isn't quite a crime, nor is someone alluding to sex in the past, depending on the degree. Sometimes we just get stuck with the picky site editor.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

So how does one go about reporting individual stories? ...

At the bottom of every page of every story is a line reading:

– Report problems with this story, click here.

 

[bflagsst]

So how does one go about reporting individual stories? I don't want to get authors in trouble, but if its against the rules then leaving such stories up sets a bad example for other writers looking at existing stories to see what will fly and what won't.

Really, the authors shouldn't be banned since its the fault of whomever approved the stories. Its not like the writers got a blind approval then slipped in and changed their stories to break the rule after the fact... unless they somehow did, then that would be wrong and should be punished. But whoever read the stories in question and gave them the green light should be held accountable for letting such violations slip by.

Some earlier stories were submitted by British writers, and I think the rules were a little vaguer. Reporting a story from years ago seems really petty. Actually, reporting any story on this site seems petty.

 

[CopperSkink]

The "report" function is as valid a piece of equipment as anything else on Literotica. Submitting stories may as well be petty. I appreciate the use of the report tool as it allows us an opportunity to weed out offensive material Literotica promised not to feature, like people getting killed by wild dogs in the act of underaged... wtf else isn't allowed... consensual sex in the missionary position.

I've got my own ideas about what's petty, of course. I'd report a story for having incorrect material or else being generally unreadible, but I wouldn't submit a story or my name into a contest, nor would I "invite" people to read my stories and vote for me if it did. Seems petty to me, but like the report function, it's another part of the site.

 

[bflagsst]

The "report" function is as valid a piece of equipment as anything else on Literotica. Submitting stories may as well be petty. I appreciate the use of the report tool as it allows us an opportunity to weed out offensive material Literotica promised not to feature, like people getting killed by wild dogs in the act of underaged... wtf else isn't allowed... consensual sex in the missionary position.

I've got my own ideas about what's petty, of course. I'd report a story for having incorrect material or else being generally unreadible, but I wouldn't submit a story or my name into a contest, nor would I "invite" people to read my stories and vote for me if it did. Seems petty to me, but like the report function, it's another part of the site.

The only part of your response I understood was your first sentence. I'm not being snide, I don't follow what you're saying. Do you submit stories or poems to Literotica?

 

[JT750]

Then we're getting into universal law, where one person who gets more law than others demands equal law be imposed on everyone else. There's some leniancy, some strictness, but overall there aren't any "Remember how I said I was fifteen? I'm actually thirteen," stories or people mating with dolphins or anything.

One or two stories with someone five minutes (or even a day) away from turning eighteen isn't quite a crime, nor is someone alluding to sex in the past, depending on the degree. Sometimes we just get stuck with the picky site editor.

See, I kind of agree with you on this... though there was that one example I cited above where the participants were definitely in the young teens and engaging in groping and masturbatory activities. That one definitely crosses the line.

But the 17 year old who's about to turn 18 doesn't bother me because 18 isn't necessarily the age of consent in all states in the US and definitely not in all parts of the world... it just happens to be the arbitrary line where most people agree that its acceptable. And the story about the kids game "Free Show" seems harmless enough, but I don't consider basic voyeurism (just seeing naked bodies) to be an issue... watching actual sexual activity, on the other hand, would be pushing the line too far.

Still, rules are rules, so yeah... it should be applied to everyone equally.

 

[JT750]

Some earlier stories were submitted by British writers, and I think the rules were a little vaguer. Reporting a story from years ago seems really petty. Actually, reporting any story on this site seems petty.

Seems rather petty to point that out in that manner, too. As for reporting older stories from a time when the rules were more vague, I'm comfortable with that. If the site has changed its rules, it should apply its newer, stricter rules to older material as well. The rules should apply to everyone or else why bother having rules to begin with?

 

[bflagsst]

Seems rather petty to point that out in that manner, too. As for reporting older stories from a time when the rules were more vague, I'm comfortable with that. If the site has changed its rules, it should apply its newer, stricter rules to older material as well. The rules should apply to everyone or else why bother having rules to begin with?

When the NHL made the rule that everyone wear helmets, everyone didn't have to wear helmets. The older players played for years without helmets when the rule was: everyone wears a helmet as part of the uniform. It doesn't really matter what you're comfortable with, you're a brand new member to a ten year old website. How are you going to appear on the scene and start reporting and flagging stories that have been here for years? Especially when it's obvious you don't know the rules, as you can't get a story accepted.

 

[Guest]

Seems rather petty to point that out in that manner, too. As for reporting older stories from a time when the rules were more vague, I'm comfortable with that. If the site has changed its rules, it should apply its newer, stricter rules to older material as well. The rules should apply to everyone or else why bother having rules to begin with?

When the NHL made the rule that everyone wear helmets, everyone didn't have to wear helmets. The older players played for years without helmets when the rule was: everyone wears a helmet as part of the uniform. It doesn't really matter what you're comfortable with, you're a brand new member to a ten year old website. How are you going to appear on the scene and start reporting and flagging stories that have been here for years? Especially when it's obvious you don't know the rules, as you can't get a story accepted.

Oh god, here we go. I smell an argument brewing.