regarding song copyright

[Katiecat]

I know I saw something on here regarding song copyrights, but I can't find it now. My understanding is that lyrics of a song, up to two lines, can be quoted in a story. My question is from a different angle, though...

Frogsoup and I were listening to a song recently and were amused by the lyrics. We decided to each write a story based (loosely) on the song, and then compare the two. It was a fun exercise to see how differently the finished stories turned out. We each tried to incorporate elements and imagery from the song, but no direct quotes -- and we came up with two fairly unique interpretations. We'd love to post the stories here on Lit, but want to make sure there is no copyright violation. Is there someone here who could give some guidance on this? Thanks much...

 

[Darkniciad]

Should be no problem whatsoever. Several people have done this, including me. I have two different interpretations of "Home by the Sea" between my pen names. They lyrics are in there, but it's a mixture of imagery based upon them and bits of the actual lyrics used ( not necessarily in order )

Sounds to me like you're talking about pretty much the same thing.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I was told up to 50% of the song, but not over, is allowed.

 

[sr71plt]

Nope, more than two lines and you're in danger. (There's no law granting rights to using even two words without explicit permission--there's just custom of what's relatively safe.) Most of the litigation that has occurred in copyright law has been over song lyrics.

The use described here, though, seems safe.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Nope, more than two lines and you're in danger. (There's no law granting rights to using even two words without explicit permission--there's just custom of what's relatively safe.) Most of the litigation that has occurred in copyright law has been over song lyrics.

The use described here, though, seems safe.

I'm not saying what the ACTUAL copyright law is. Just what I was told by Lit (i.e. Laurel) when I posted a whole song. I was told that 50% was allowed on LIT... but over that wasn't. *shrug*

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not saying what the ACTUAL copyright law is. Just what I was told by Lit (i.e. Laurel) when I posted a whole song. I was told that 50% was allowed on LIT... but over that wasn't. *shrug*

Yes, well, as far as I can determine, Laurel knows squat about copyright law. Just look around at the copyrighted material she lets stand on this forum (and, yes, some of them have been individually reported).

I wouldn't advise letting her guide you in terms of your own risk.

 

[Guest]

I'm not saying what the ACTUAL copyright law is. Just what I was told by Lit (i.e. Laurel) when I posted a whole song. I was told that 50% was allowed on LIT... but over that wasn't. *shrug*

Selena... just ignore the one behind the curtain.... pointless trying to have a conversation with one that LOVES to pick fights... just to pick them


So... is the bump going to be painted like a turkey next?

 

[Katiecat]

Well, first of all, thank you very much for your quick responses and for the information! I certainly appreciate it; I've been registered on this site for a few years, but just recently started posting some of my stories.

And I certainly didn't intend for this question to start a debate or to rehash a hot potato -- ok, that was kind of an odd visual I just wanted to know if our use of the song was appropriate, allowed, and not against site rules -- and it appears that it is acceptable use. We submitted our stories this afternoon, so hopefully we'll see them posted soon.

 

[Darkniciad]

Well, first of all, thank you very much for your quick responses and for the information! I certainly appreciate it; I've been registered on this site for a few years, but just recently started posting some of my stories.

And I certainly didn't intend for this question to start a debate or to rehash a hot potato -- ok, that was kind of an odd visual I just wanted to know if our use of the song was appropriate, allowed, and not against site rules -- and it appears that it is acceptable use. We submitted our stories this afternoon, so hopefully we'll see them posted soon.

Don't worry too much about bringing up a hot potato. It's actually sort of hard to avoid hereabout ( especially with some tensions from the election still lingering )

What you've described sounds well within Lit's guidelines, and probably within the unofficial "fair use" standard of actual law.

Now it's just a matter of the readers. Good luck

 

[TE999]

Well, first of all, thank you very much for your quick responses and for the information! I certainly appreciate it; I've been registered on this site for a few years, but just recently started posting some of my stories.

And I certainly didn't intend for this question to start a debate or to rehash a hot potato -- ok, that was kind of an odd visual I just wanted to know if our use of the song was appropriate, allowed, and not against site rules -- and it appears that it is acceptable use. We submitted our stories this afternoon, so hopefully we'll see them posted soon.

Many authors on Lit have written stories containing or based on song lyrics including Mistress Lynn, Jake Rivers, DG Hear and yours truly. No one has ever had a problem that I'm aware of.

 

[Guest]

Well, first of all, thank you very much for your quick responses and for the information! I certainly appreciate it; I've been registered on this site for a few years, but just recently started posting some of my stories.

And I certainly didn't intend for this question to start a debate or to rehash a hot potato -- ok, that was kind of an odd visual I just wanted to know if our use of the song was appropriate, allowed, and not against site rules -- and it appears that it is acceptable use. We submitted our stories this afternoon, so hopefully we'll see them posted soon.

I posted a story with a song in it.

 

[cloudy]

Many authors on Lit have written stories containing or based on song lyrics including Mistress Lynn, Jake Rivers, DG Hear and yours truly. No one has ever had a problem that I'm aware of.

So have I.

 

[sr71plt]

When someone innocently asks the copyright questions, I'll give them industry guidance. From there, it's their risk. It's true that copyright is rarely contested; that's not an indication that the risks have evaporated. So it comes down to the risk you want to accept; neither "I don't do the research" or "the Web site didn't mind" mitigate your personal risk one iota.

If someone can find authoritative citations indicating the risks aren't as I post, I'm sure they will provide them here.

A good place to start for the U.S. market is the U.S. copyright office Web page at www.copyright.gov.

For other major markets:

UK: at www.cla.co.uk or www.intellectual-property.gov.uk.

Australia: www.copyright.org.au

Canada: laws.justice.gc.ca

Inida: www.goodnewsindia.com

Won't argue with anyone here, though. It's their risk.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

There's always a risk "using" copyrighted material in any fashion. Obviously you knew that, Katiecat, or you wouldn't have asked the question.

But it was clear that you were asking pretty specifically about Lit's guidelines, which I think were adequately answered. (I, too, have based a story on song lyrics... and still have, in my to-be-finished stories file somewhere, one based on Sting's "Don't Stand So Close To Me." Some day...)

And bonus, Katie! Now thanks to Sr's vast knowledge of copyright infringement, you have both Lit's guidelines and resources for assuming your own risk in terms of all copyright law, and can make your own decision - whether to go by Lit's rather lax view, or a more CYA/stringent one...

But Sr is also correct that it's rare to have a real copyright go all the way to court, but the most often cited are song lyric ones.

And Disney. They've got the money to burn on lawyers, apparently.

So... is the bump going to be painted like a turkey next?

*snerk* Hadn't considered it - but probably not, that dang paint was sooooo itchy (and I'm itchy enough already! )

 

[Safe_Bet]

Well, first of all, thank you very much for your quick responses and for the information! I certainly appreciate it; I've been registered on this site for a few years, but just recently started posting some of my stories.

And I certainly didn't intend for this question to start a debate or to rehash a hot potato -- ok, that was kind of an odd visual I just wanted to know if our use of the song was appropriate, allowed, and not against site rules -- and it appears that it is acceptable use. We submitted our stories this afternoon, so hopefully we'll see them posted soon.

How DARE you start a debate in the AH! Nothing like that has EVER happened before!

All right young lady - In accordance with VERY strict tradition (which I am just now establishing) you must make amends by posting a picture of yourself with full frontal nudity immediately!

 

[Selena_Kitt]

How DARE you start a debate in the AH! Nothing like that has EVER happened before!

All right young lady - In accordance with VERY strict tradition (which I am just now establishing) you must make amends by posting a picture of yourself with full frontal nudity immediately!

Or, translated in GB speak: "Show us your tits!"

 

[Shwenn]

Katiecat,

Sandra Day O'Connor has adressed this question very pointedly:

"The primary objective of copyright is not to reward the labor of authors, but [t]o promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts." "To this end, copyright assures authors the right to their original expression, but encourages others to build freely upon the ideas and information conveyed by a work. This result is neither unfair nor unfortunate. It is the means by which copyright advances the progress of science and art."
-- US Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

Answer your question?

 

[neonlyte]

...


*snerk* Hadn't considered it - but probably not, that dang paint was sooooo itchy (and I'm itchy enough already! )

Chicken...

US copyright law (for Educators and Librarians) allows 10% of copyright material to be 'reproduced' without copyright infringement. As long as the use is 'not for profit' I doubt a court would accept infringement if 10% or less is used. However... this has not been tested

 

[Katiecat]

When someone innocently asks the copyright questions, I'll give them industry guidance. From there, it's their risk. It's true that copyright is rarely contested; that's not an indication that the risks have evaporated. So it comes down to the risk you want to accept; neither "I don't do the research" or "the Web site didn't mind" mitigate your personal risk one iota.

And I do appreciate the info. I have a journalism degree around here somewhere (gotta blow the dust off it, though). I'm familiar with fair use laws, but I wasn't sure about the site rules, or the concept of writing a story "inspired" by a song. And I do realize that someone could be extremely zealous and sue for copyright infringement, but much more likely if there was a monetary gain from it or "harm to the brand" could be proven. But I would not be comfortable, personally, with using more than a short, credited quote or a few lines.

There's always a risk "using" copyrighted material in any fashion. Obviously you knew that, Katiecat, or you wouldn't have asked the question.

But it was clear that you were asking pretty specifically about Lit's guidelines, which I think were adequately answered. (I, too, have based a story on song lyrics... and still have, in my to-be-finished stories file somewhere, one based on Sting's "Don't Stand So Close To Me." Some day...)

Yep, that is another one I've worked on a bit, but it needs a lot of polish. It was on the charts when I was a in high school, and it used to give me chills. You know, those good chills...I'd love to read your version of it, too...

How DARE you start a debate in the AH! Nothing like that has EVER happened before!

All right young lady - In accordance with VERY strict tradition (which I am just now establishing) you must make amends by posting a picture of yourself with full frontal nudity immediately!

Ah...well...I'll leave that up to y'all's imagination. It's better this way, trust me. But how about I tell my husband that I need a sound spanking?

Or, translated in GB speak: "Show us your tits!"

Do you guys give out beads?

 

[Katiecat]

Katiecat,

Sandra Day O'Connor has adressed this question very pointedly:

"The primary objective of copyright is not to reward the labor of authors, but [t]o promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts." "To this end, copyright assures authors the right to their original expression, but encourages others to build freely upon the ideas and information conveyed by a work. This result is neither unfair nor unfortunate. It is the means by which copyright advances the progress of science and art."
-- US Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

Answer your question?

Yes, and very well. Thanks!

 

[Guest]

*snerk* Hadn't considered it - but probably not, that dang paint was sooooo itchy (and I'm itchy enough already! )

Well.... how about a holiday tree?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Well.... how about a holiday tree?

Those hooks for the ornaments would be tricky!

 

[sr71plt]

There's always a risk "using" copyrighted material in any fashion. Obviously you knew that, Katiecat, or you wouldn't have asked the question.

But it was clear that you were asking pretty specifically about Lit's guidelines, which I think were adequately answered. (I, too, have based a story on song lyrics... and still have, in my to-be-finished stories file somewhere, one based on Sting's "Don't Stand So Close To Me." Some day...)

I know this is going to lead to another round of slamming by the complacently misinformed, but what I was noting was that the Lit. guidelines aren't any cause for comfort when it comes to copyright infringement. As some have noted here, they have been permitted to post stories reusing song lyrics in full. That only emphasizes that Lit. knows little about its responsibilities/liability under copyright law--and cares just as little about helping to keep its authors out of trouble.

When Lit. posts your stories, this isn't mitigating your own responsibilities/liabilities for your work whatsoever--it just adds Lit. as a fully responsible party for what it has posted. (And Lit. doesn't seem to know enough about copyright liability to protect itself, let alone the authors here.)

So, on the question of risk, Lit. guidelines are pretty much irrelevant. That said, as I've posted before, there is very little probability that the copyright owner will either know the material is being used or go to the trouble to sue over it. That's a different issue than what the risk involved is or whether what you are doing is legal or whether people putting their own written work out should or shouldn't honor the proprietary rights of their fellow writers.

As Fair Use has been brought up, I'll note once more that stories on Lit. don't come under Fair Use provisions. Fair Use is for educational material for non-profit use. Lit. won't fit under educational use in a court of law and Lit. is a for-profit Web site, so all of the material appearing here is also considered for-profit in law.


Please do note that for the specific question asked in this thread--whether the described use would fly--I said from the get go that this use didn't look like it violated any song copyright issues.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I know this is going to lead to another round of slamming by the complacently misinformed, but what I was noting was that the Lit. guidelines aren't any cause for comfort when it comes to copyright infringement. As some have noted here, they have been permitted to post stories reusing song lyrics in full. That only emphasizes that Lit. knows little about its responsibilities/liability under copyright law--and cares just as little about helping to keep its authors out of trouble.

When Lit. posts your stories, this isn't mitigating your own responsibilities/liabilities for your work whatsoever--it just adds Lit. as a fully responsible party for what it has posted. (And Lit. doesn't seem to know enough about copyright liability to protect itself, let alone the authors here.)

So, on the question of risk, Lit. guidelines are pretty much irrelevant. That said, as I've posted before, there is very little probability that the copyright owner will either know the material is being used or go to the trouble to sue over it. That's a different issue than what the risk involved is or whether what you are doing is legal or whether people putting their own written work out should or shouldn't honor the proprietary rights of their fellow writers.

As Fair Use has been brought up, I'll note once more that stories on Lit. don't come under Fair Use provisions. Fair Use is for educational material for non-profit use. Lit. won't fit under educational use in a court of law and Lit. is a for-profit Web site, so all of the material appearing here is also considered for-profit in law.


Please do note that for the specific question asked in this thread--whether the described use would fly--I said from the get go that this use didn't look like it violated any song copyright issues.

And I ALSO said:

And bonus, Katie! Now thanks to Sr's vast knowledge of copyright infringement, you have both Lit's guidelines and resources for assuming your own risk in terms of all copyright law, and can make your own decision - whether to go by Lit's rather lax view, or a more CYA/stringent one...

Katie has plenty of information to make her decision now. And, as a journalism major, sounds like she already had a pretty good handle on her potential risks, and clearly has enough brain power to do her own risk-management assessment.

Your information may be helpful, I'm sure, Sr, perhaps not to Katie, who clearly already knew what you offered and was looking for a more Lit-specific information, but to someone stumbling across this thread in the future who might not know their risk when it comes to copyright.

But Lit's guidelines aren't irrelevant...on Lit. If an author already knows their risk and chooses to go by Lit's guidelines, that's their choice. Free country and all that.

 

[sr71plt]

And I ALSO said:



Katie has plenty of information to make her decision now. And, as a journalism major, sounds like she already had a pretty good handle on her potential risks, and clearly has enough brain power to do her own risk-management assessment.

And I also clearly (twice) said it wasn't about Katie's question at all, as I said up front that what she was asking about probably didn't trigger any song copyright issues.