Reconciliation: Does it ever really work?

[Roxanne Appleby]

My question is, is it only a lie as a violation of trust that you won't tolerate, or is there more? If you trust someone to do something, and they fail to do it even if they said they would, is this too big of a violation of trust to overcome?

From my last post: "Notwithstanding openness, honesty and realistic appraisals going in, it just turned out that one or both parties did not possess what the other wanted or needed in a relationship. There had been no dishonesty – we just didn't know before what we learned over time."

It is often the case that a person does not know him or herself what he or she really has to offer, and only learns this over time. The person probably did not deliberately try to mislead. At worst, he was a somewhat unrealistic in his expections of what he himself was capable of. Has he learned what he really has to offer, and more important, what he does not have? Is he honest about that? Be sure to give him the space and freedom to be honest in this - ideally he will do it on his own without any encouragement, but why take chances - it's your life we're talking about here! Were you honest with yourself about what you could reasonably expect from him, or were you evading the reality that deep inside you already knew? Are you being honest with yourself now?

You can't get 10 pounds of sugar from a bag that only holds five. If five will do you, and the bag is honestly labeled, take it. If you need 10, or the bag is a lying sack, move on.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

There is so much more. Trust is not only about honesty. It's about placing yourself in the vulnerable position of opening yourself up to others and relying on them for what you need in a friend/ lover.

And per my last post, if you open yourself to what looks like just a five pound bag when you really need 10 pounds, you can't really blame the "seller" if he himself honestly didn't know how much was in the bag.

 

[McKenna]

Not at all sure what context this thread is in, but let me try and answer your question. If one person lies to another and then expects reconciliation at a later stage, it won't work. A lie in any relationship situation is a violation of trust and some people choose to put up with it. Being as honest as possible is all very well but it's futile if the other person doesn't believe you. As for your example below, unless there was good reason why someone didn't do something for you when they said they would, it's not a violation, merely an inconvenience. My view is that if you want something done right, you do it for yourself. If you entrust something to someone and they don't deliver, you won't ask them again. Is that what you are getting at?

Yes and no. It's interesting to read your perspective on the question, though. I think in a relationship you entrust someone with your heart, and if they take it for granted, that is as much a violation of trust as if he or she were to do something more drastic, like have an affair.

To some extent, yes, in that I will not trust (as in "rely on") that person to do something for me again. My guard will be up & I'll be ready with my contingency plan should the person disappoint me again.

I won't cut that someone out of my life, but my expectations and opinion of that person WILL change ... however slightly. Such disappointments are cumulative, and the weight of them will take its toll.

Thanks, Imp. I believe this is very true, especially the last line.

 

[McKenna]

Reconciliation, to some degree, depends on the nature of the initial relationship and the relationship considered tolerable post dispute.

Trust - for me - is paramount, especially in an intimate relationship, though I admit to 'sharing' a girl in my late teens for almost two years and that likely conditioned my perspective.

I am immensely trusting and equally forgiving, but there is a line and the line is final, once crossed there is no way back. My wife thinks I am far too trusting, I tend to consider the other parties position rather than my own, look to my faults that might have led to a dispute rather than seek out their faults as ammunition.

I split from my parents and sisters following a messy and distressing divorce when I was eighteen and haven't seen any of them since. I am now, unbelievably, in the process of taking legal action against my father for exposing me to asbestos when I was fifteen - not something I want to do but he was my employer at the time and I have a legal requirement in the UK to file an action within three years of being notified of asbestosis - another great idea for a novel - in case my benign state becomes malignant. I don't harbour a grudge for the asbestosis, but I do for the break up of the family, and curiously, pursuing this legal action has provided background to the events of forty years ago and served to reinforce my belief that I made the right choice then.

None of my friends has ever betrayed my trust, nor I theirs, and through my working life, I only ever had two 'bad' employees - one a petty thief whose father threatened all sort of retaliation until I produced the local newspaper citing her arrest for shoplifting in another store. The other was a serious thief and might have got away with the theft if I hadn't unfortunately come into the office one Saturday, opened the post only to find we were buying goods and equipment through a 'front company' set up by her and her husband. She went to court.

I trust people absolutely - until they betray me - then reconciliation is impossible.

Wow Neon, that's quite a story. It must have been very difficult for you at 18, and difficult now, too, to have to dredge through some of it again.

The kind of reconciliation I would wish for you is peace of mind.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Someone PM'd the following: "Could you explain a bit more about that metaphor you're using about five pounds in a ten pound bag with regard to trust in a relationship? I've never heard that expression."

My response:

Not surprised - I just made it up.

It's not a "deep thought." Here's an example: If I really want a partner who is a very warm and sympathetic person, and instead I have one who is not that, but is rather cool and rational instead, I can't really hold it against that person for not being the thing I want. Unless they tried to mislead me about who they really are I shouldn't be bitter or try to change that person. I just need to decide - does this person offer enough other things that compensate? If not, I probably need to split.

 

[McKenna]

It's interesting. My reaction to the kind of experiences suggested by these remarks is to be angry with myself for deluding myself about who the other person really is/was. Because, I think the evidence is always there right from the start, and it's my choice to accept it or evade it. If I do the latter, who's fault is that?

I can imagine a situation in which a person is genuinely fooled by a tremendous actor, but I think this is rare. Suspension of disbelief works for fiction, but when done in real life, beware!

Maybe I'm too harsh with myself in this. I do try to attend scrupulously to the evidence and exercise determinedly independent thinking about individualsm I meet. I have to resist a tendency to make firm judgments too early about a person, and get better at that as I grow older and hopefully wiser. I also tend to read in sympathetic rationales (like ignorance) for behavior that suggests ethical deficiencies – but I do not excuse such behavior and deficiencies, and don't get close to such individuals.

The bottom line is, people don't hurt me often, and trust that's not given can't be broken.

This could be a recipe for isolation, and a cause for the "George Gray" existence I fear. (Google that name with "Spoon River.") It could be, but I don't think it is in my case. I have opened myself to love, "left the harbor" so to speak. That it didn't work out was because, notwithstanding openness, honesty and realistic appraisals going in, it just turned out that one or both parties did not possess what the other wanted or needed in a relationship. There had been no dishonesty – we just didn't know before what we learned over time.

I used to be a very black and white sort of a girl. There were no shades of gray, no compromise, no nothing. I've learned that it's very dangerous to say "never," to deliver ultimatums, to basically continue to paint in black in white when the world is very gray. Sometimes I don't know how much I can bear until I am asked to bear it.

McKenna, you may potentially be on the threshold of a bright new season in your life and relationship. Why? It sounds like now you both really know what the other does and does not have to offer, and both have decided that, "Hey – that's not bad! I like that package!" If that is correct, then your relationship going forward will be based on the most solid of foundations, and will have none of the stresses of one build on a flawed foundation. Without those stresses – whoopee! Good times ahead!

There is one possible fly in this ointment: You want a baby. If he actively does not, then you probably need to move on, because when your "clock" goes you'll be bitter for having missed it. If you do move on for that reason there is no guarantee that you will find a replacement (Bel's taken), but at least this guy won't have stolen your opportunity to do so.

Best wishes to you, lovely woman.

Mr. McKenna and I have always wanted children. It's not a question of wanting, it's a question of having the ability to conceive. Unfortunately for us, my body has never wanted to cooperate with our conception efforts, which makes for a whole new passel of problems to deal with. But thank you for your concern, advice, and well wishes. I know they come from the heart.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

"I think in a relationship you entrust someone with your heart, and if they take it for granted, that is as much a violation of trust . . ."

Tough question: When you say "entrust someone with your heart," might you really mean, hope to get more from the person than you can reasonably expect that he has to give? Hope the other will someday maybe acquire or become willing to contribute something they do not have now or are unwilling to contribute now? Hope to get 10 pounds of sugar from a five pound bag?

I am not suggesting that this is the case, but am suggesting that it's a question you need to ask yourself. Then, if you are expecting more than what is really there, you should decide whether what is what is really there is enough.

I am also not suggesting that these are easy questions to answer.

 

[L_homme]

I think in a relationship you entrust someone with your heart, and if they take it for granted, that is as much a violation of trust as if he or she were to do something more drastic, like have an affair.

I agree with that. But it's different if it's someone like a husband/wife than if you are non-commital/single. Maybe my views wouldn't be so skewed if I were actually in a strong enough relationship to comment properly.

 

[McKenna]

From my last post: "Notwithstanding openness, honesty and realistic appraisals going in, it just turned out that one or both parties did not possess what the other wanted or needed in a relationship. There had been no dishonesty – we just didn't know before what we learned over time."

It is often the case that a person does not know him or herself what he or she really has to offer, and only learns this over time. The person probably did not deliberately try to mislead. At worst, he was a somewhat unrealistic in his expections of what he himself was capable of. Has he learned what he really has to offer, and more important, what he does not have? Is he honest about that? Be sure to give him the space and freedom to be honest in this - ideally he will do it on his own without any encouragement, but why take chances - it's your life we're talking about here! Were you honest with yourself about what you could reasonably expect from him, or were you evading the reality that deep inside you already knew? Are you being honest with yourself now?

You can't get 10 pounds of sugar from a bag that only holds five. If five will do you, and the bag is honestly labeled, take it. If you need 10, or the bag is a lying sack, move on.

You are so wise. We've had the past year to "find" ourselves, and some of that discovery came by guided therapy sessions. Not marital counseling, I'm talking one-on-one personal therapists. His therapist was not mine, and vice versa. I think he's learned a lot in the past year; I know I have, and one of the things I know is that there is such fluidity to our lives, it's easier to go with the flow than try and nail it down.

I'm not entirely comfortable discussing the reasons for the trouble in our relationship on such a public forum; I will say it was not because one of us had an affair (I had no idea people would assume this!)

I will say the last year has brought with it discovery. Not only self discovery, but discovery about relationships in general. It's like viewing yourself and your capabilities, desires, and needs more realistically, and learning not to hold someone else responsible for your happiness if you, yourself, cannot provide it. Sharing my life with someone means just that: Sharing. It's not expecting someone to become responsible for my happiness, well being, sanity, or insanity. That was a lesson I needed to learn, to own my life, faults and all.

I'm blathering again, so I will stop. Thanks for your commentary, Roxelby. You're the greatest.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

From Impy's "communication" thread. This is kind of the "on the other hand" to what I've been saying. As someone who believes in balance, I think it should probably be looked at alongside mine, and then - balanced.

I may be too black and white, or I may have missed the finer points, but IMO, if you are a sensitive person who is aware of that other person, it should be intuitive whether the need-sharing is compatible as soon as the facades are dropped. I realize that emotions and fears/paranoias can cloud an otherwise simple issue, but I also believe it's important in our search for the truth at the heart of every human scenario that those feelngs be understood and accounted for.

To be more pointed at your questions, there is a big difference in the feel of honest, naive cluelessness, and a self-centeredness that prevents empathy. Empathy and the desire to please that other person, in a perfect world, would be musts for anything other than an acquaintance. Alas, we tend to compromise in our impatient need.

If the S.O. is clueless, yet desires to please you (assuming he/she has no abnormal malfunction), it is a small thing to train them, to nurse that compatibility. If they are self-centered, it will be impossible. I would not wish it on anyone -- that frustration of emotionally and intellectually banging your head against the immobile wall...ok well, maybe my last girlfriend.

It goes without saying that you should be sensitive to reciprocate, but often I like stating the obvious. I call it emphasis.

Bold emphasis added by me. Now, the $64,000 question: If it is a "a self-centeredness that prevents empathy," does that mean the relationship has nothing to offer? Might there be other values provided that compensate and make this a "package" you can accept, or is that an absolute bar? Is it possible to accept the fact that person has "a self-centeredness that prevents empathy" even if there are other worthwhile values? I mean really accept it, by the way - not "hope that someday he will change."

 

[McKenna]

Tough question: When you say "entrust someone with your heart," might you really mean, hope to get more from the person than you can reasonably expect that he has to give? Hope the other will someday maybe acquire or become willing to contribute something they do not have now or are unwilling to contribute now? Hope to get 10 pounds of sugar from a five pound bag?

I am not suggesting that this is the case, but am suggesting that it's a question you need to ask yourself. Then, if you are expecting more than what is really there, you should decide whether what is what is really there is enough.

I am also not suggesting that these are easy questions to answer.

See my response above. I'm also sending a PM.

 

[McKenna]

From Impy's "communication" thread. This is kind of the "on the other hand" to what I've been saying. As someone who believes in balance, I think it should probably be looked at alongside mine, and then - balanced.


Bold emphasis added by me. Now, the $64,000 question: If it is a "a self-centeredness that prevents empathy," does that mean the relationship has nothing to offer? Might there be other values provided that compensate and make this a "package" you can accept, or is that an absolute bar? Is it possible to accept the fact that person has "a self-centeredness that prevents empathy" even if there are other worthwhile values? I mean really accept it, by the way - not "hope that someday he will change."

Crikey, woman! Slow down!

 

[neonlyte]

Wow Neon, that's quite a story. It must have been very difficult for you at 18, and difficult now, too, to have to dredge through some of it again.

The kind of reconciliation I would wish for you is peace of mind.

Oh... I have peace of mind sweet McK. I wondered for years if I'd made the right decison and we tried (rather my wife tried) to mend bridges after we married - to no avail. There was too much spite (from both my parents) to consider a filial relationship and I wasn't prepared to expose my family to that grief. Churning the past just now is a remote excercise mostly handled by lawyers, I get asked to confirm certain things and some of those things are the missing links in a relationship breakup I didn't fully understand when I was eighteen. I never truely understood 'family' until i met my wifes family - I didn't speak a word of Portuguese and they spoke no English but love, trust and friendship needs no language to be given and understood.

I'm sorry to read of your conception difficulties. Good friends of our struggled for years and had virtually given up all hope, they now have twin daughters born when mother was forty two. I wish you luck - never lose hope.

 

[Goldie Munro]

I reconciled with the person that has affected me most in life twice - both times were a disaster - our relationship had been a disaster - that didnt stop us wanting it to work so badly that we tried and tried - it wasnt to be. We have both moved on now and next to my husband she is the most important person in my life and always will be - she is family.

 

[Pure]

let me pose a question: suppose two people are together for five years and decide it doesn't work. then they are apart for a few months and 'reconcile.' then they are together for three more years reasonably happy at first, but in the end, it doesn't work. so....were they 'reconciled.

speaking of trust, are there kinds? iow, it seems to me common that a wife does NOT trust hubby on an overnight in an distant hotel room with a co worker. OTOH, she might 'trust' that that he 'bring home the bacon, treat her and the kids well.

PS I see roxanne raised a similar point in posting #4, about difference 'papered over' or fundamentally resolved. what i'd add, however, is that you don't know, necessarily what it is, till after.
IOW, if it didn't work, you say, 'well i guess the difference were just papered over, though i thought otherwise at the time.'
---

here is another angle: there are
A acceptance reconciliatons based on one or both accepting the other as is.

B reform reconciliation based on one partner 'reforming' or 'turning a new leaf' (e.g., stopping drinking).

my point is that reform reconciliations, while sometime real, are very other just the fignment of one's (the partner of the alleged 'reformed' person) imagination.

 

[McKenna]

let me pose a question: suppose two people are together for five years and decide it doesn't work. then they are apart for a few months and 'reconcile.' then they are together for three more years reasonably happy at first, but in the end, it doesn't work. so....were they 'reconciled.

To answer your question, I doubt very much that during those three years the couple considered themselves irreconciled. So, yes, I'd say they were reconciled. For three years.

I think what you're asking is if reconciliation is a permanent thing. My answer would be, "it can be."

Or...

Perhaps those three years were just a "truce" and now the war's back on?

speaking of trust, are there kinds? iow, it seems to me common that a wife does NOT trust hubby on an overnight in an distant hotel room with a co worker. OTOH, she might 'trust' that that he 'bring home the bacon, treat her and the kids well.

I think there are degrees to the violation of trust. An affair could be considered a more heinous violation than, say, forgetting to take out the garbage when one promised to do so.

here is another angle there are
A accpetance reconcialitons based on one or both accept the other as is.

B reform reconciliation based on one partner 'reforming' or 'turning a new leaf' (e.g. stopping drinking).

my point is that reform reconciliation, while sometime real, are very other just the fignment of one's imagination.

Or C, a combination of A and B. Reform is about as easy as building trust once it's been destroyed; not impossible, but damn near. I think compromises are made while that trust is being rebuilt, or accepting the fact that, like in your example, and alcoholic may stop drinking, but he never stops being an alcoholic.

 

[impressive]

Sometimes I don't know how much I can bear until I am asked to bear it.

Yes, I can totally relate to this.

Not marital counseling...

Per the statistics I've seen, the majority of couples who participate in marital counseling still end up divorcing. Keep in mind, though, that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

[McKenna]

Per the statistics I've seen, the majority of couples who participate in marital counseling still end up divorcing. Keep in mind, though, that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

My therapist once said that marital conseling shouldn't be looked at as the "saving grace" for a relationship, but rather a tool to help two people decide whether or not they should truly be together. In that respect, the statistics could very well be true, and it was a healthier choice all around that the couple split.

 

[L_homme]

... it was a healthier choice all around that the couple split.

I probably need to go listen to a few ABBA songs.

 

[McKenna]

I probably need to go listen to a few ABBA songs.

Waterloo?

 

[L_homme]

Waterloo?

No, more like 'Knowing me, knowing you' or 'Lay all your love on me'

 

[AchtungNight]

I have reconciled with people after bad mistakes many times. And there are some events I have never been able to fix and probably never will. <sighs> I won't go into specifics.

Those who have reconciled and benefitted- congratulations.
Those who still need to- good luck.

 

[Belegon]

Prior to my marriage, the most important relationship of my life was one that went through a three month seperation in the middle of it. The relationship was far better after the "reconciliation". While ultimately we parted, I would have to say that I consider that reconciliation a success when judged by itself. The relationship as a whole was a failure.

Personally, I am almost always willing to give a "second chance"...or more. Some of that is based on stubborness, some of it on my desire to "win", some on my capacity for forgiveness and some of it simply because if I saw enough value in the person/relationship to get to that point to begin with than I am unwiling to abandon that potential and that value.

 

[NoJo]

Have you ever reconciled with a loved one, be they friend, family member, or spouse/lover, and had the relationship work? Why or why not?


Short question, open-ended I realize, just want to hear some experiences good, bad, or otherwise.

Yes. My wife and I separated for a few years, then we got back together.

 

[CharleyH]

Have you ever reconciled with a loved one, be they friend, family member, or spouse/lover, and had the relationship work? Why or why not?


Short question, open-ended I realize, just want to hear some experiences good, bad, or otherwise.

Tried but it never works because whats to reconcile? If you want something? A person can adapt immediately to what you desire if there is love, but if you NEED something that you have never gotten thus far from that person? How will you adapt even if they do try to please you? I am thinking you adapt with reservations?