Reception theory

[cahab]

Okay, since we have wandered off topic on the underage question elsewhere, what does everyone think is the affect on an individual is if they read stories where the hero does bad things? Will they copy it, or are they going to have what they see/hear/read held in check by their own moralistic upbringing elsewhere? And, if so, at what age does someone learn to judge right from wrong independently?

 

[snooper]

It all depends on what you mean by wrong.

Some simple examples:
Drinking alcohol is wrong (and illegal) in some countries. In others it is right if you are over a certain (variable) age. In others there are no limits.
Driving on the left is wrong in some countries. In others it is compulsory.
Deliberately disobeying the law of the country in which you are is "wrong" but resisting Hitler in 1943 by hiding Jews in Germany would have been "right".

As a comedian once summed it up: "Hating Germans can't be racist. I got medals at home for killing them."

As to the effect of reading/viewing on behaviour; there will doubtless be the usual cry of "it doesn't affect me" and to those who believe that I will ask, why do advertisers spend so much money on TV and newspaper/magazine ads?

 

[gauchecritic]

Without going on and on and presenting the nature/nurture arguement I'll just use my kids as a f'rinstance.

We brought our kids up by example. They obviously picked up a few bad habits from our own upbringing (60s/70s working class) but on the whole they are loving and caring 'kids' who are very aware of inequality in all its guises and the essential pointlessness of violence.

Their exposure to external 'values' was always tempered (but not excessively censored) by their first 2 years.

However, I also subscribe to the Shakespearean quotation that someone on the boards uses as a sig. line. (if I recall correctly)

"There is no good or evil, but thinking makes it so."

Gauche

 

[cahab]

It all depends on what you mean by wrong.

Sorry, poor wording. I meant morally wrong, rather than just against the mores of a society. Morals are, of course, also up for debate. Generally I work on the principle first expounded by [insert correct name here] that something is morally wrong if it would harm a society if it were done to everyone.

 

[snooper]

... Generally I work on the principle ... that something is morally wrong if it would harm a society if it were done to everyone.

That just moves the semantic problem to the word 'harm' from the word 'wrong'.

Most 'good' things are capable of decreasing the life enjoyment of some individuals in any society, while increasing the overall life enjoyment of many.
The obvious example was the Romans throwing Christians to the lions. It gave immense pleasure to many members of society, and by claiming that they were the only ones who were knew the truth and that everyone else was mistaken, this little sect had caused a lot of heartache for a lot of people.

J.S.Mill "The greatest good for the greatest number."

 

[Guest]

I'm with Gauche (above at least). I recall both my sons knowing when they were doing 'wrong' very early on (2-ish). 'Wrong' could mean disobeying, 'harming' another, being destructive, or putting himself in danger to get what he wanted, etc.

Many children learn this early but if it's not part of a larger context that includes love and security then perhaps it becomes meaningless (esp. during adolescence).

still a self-educating parent, Perdita

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

I was exposed to virtually every bad influence under the sun; my parents tell me they always knew I was "old" and didn't worry about it. My mother was Finnish, my father was second-generation Irish. They met in Greece. They divorced in America.

I had no TV restrictions, no pre-established bed time, learned to read at three, was briefly kidnapped by a schizophrenic aunt who planned to kill us both, was three, didn't cotton onto the plan at the time, was recovered from said crazy aunt by friendly policemen with a teddy bear, started writing, pretended I was a horse, laughed when an older boy called T.J. exposed himself to us on the playground; at six I shook Nancy Reagan's hand at a "Just Say No" assembly at my school and told her my parents hated her husband, won the "Mercer Island Arts Festival Special Award", read "A Clockwork Orange" and "Johnny Got his Gun" way too early, they bussed me out of my district to middle school with rich kids so that I could attend their honors program, my friend Jaime brought her mom's gold cocaine compact for us all to see and demonstrated the 'sepper, much to our delight, I was called into the office for wearing a low-cut shirt, I got top marks in the district solo singing trials, Jaime brought in a low-rent erotic "literature" mag that had lesbian stories about college girls and one particularly atrocious one called "Hot Loving Nurse" whose grammar I went on to pick apart disdainfully, I designed the yearbook cover, I sucked at math, went to high school with rich kids, hung out with a guy called Bryant who took so much acid he saw permanent tracers, wore too much makeup, watched my friend Jaime drop out at fourteen to become a hooker- her inaugural job was apparently in the restroom of a Kentucky Fried Chicken- fell ridiculously in love with a white trash dreamboat called Rikki whose father was a gun-running ex-sheriff, lost him, cried for a year, watched my best friend from childhood puke into her kitchen sink in front of me, cheerfully explaining that my offhand historical explanation of the word "Ipecac" had given her the best tool yet in her quest to become a more efficacious bulimic (she'd read it in "Anne of Green Gables"). I watched the same friend go into rehab, out of rehab, back to rehab. Her parents bought her a new Bronco. She dated a heroin addict called Steve who she called "Eee-a-plunk" because of his inability to keep an erection, and they became addicted to the Steve Miller song "the Joker" because it was the theme song of the rehab they attended, and they would play it and drop acid, and I was in the Jazz choir, but I hated it and started getting serious about opera, I moved out at seventeen, developed a fondness for boots and braces, started dating thugs, danced to old Northern Soul and Desmond Dekker while they put the boot in....and in....and in....on some poor bastard, until he stopped breathing, and then Eric stopped kicking long enough to revive him, because he worked as an EMT. Watched my best friend Jen get lured away by an unattractive computer tech called Rich an start selling Amway. Got tattoos. Dated a sociopath. Found him fascinating and despicable. Didn't figure it out right away. Figured it out. Kept dating him. He tried to strangle me when I broke up with him. It wasn't as traumatic as you might think. I hit him on the head with a candlestick rather absently. Got accepted a music conservatory as an opera major. Met a nice guy, a scientist. Was in a rock band, released an album on Self-Adhesive records. Decided contemporary music was dead. Stuck with opera. Still with the scientist. Working on a novel. Still suck ass at math.

The odd part: I've never drank, I've never smoked, I've never done any drugs.

I think people have inherent propensities toward "bad" behavior, weaknesses toward influence. They've identified a gene problem in certain people that outlines a theory of the hero/villain dichotomy- lowered fear response, addiction to danger, sociopathy, in essence- basically, that either is one half of the same coin- if it is chanelled properly, you become a fireman or a fighter pilot, and if not, well, you become a criminal. And kids are different. Some can handle thngs that others can't. All I got out of my time slumming was a sarcastic outlook and a love for sex. Parents should know their kids well enough to know what they can handle. Obviously, my bulimic friend had everything in the world handed to her on a charger, and it wasn't enough.

Just a thought...
mlle

 

[Guest]

Mlle:

Will you marry me?

Trova

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

LOL

No! Don't you understand? I'm a damaged baby! Damaged! DamaGed! I'm no good for you.
Plus, you've been married, like, how many times? I'd just be another notch in your belt...*bob*

But honestly- I would like to know about other people's influences. Anyone? Were you sheltered? Left alone? Raised like a hothouse cuke? Or raised like a self-rooted side-lot beet? Do you think trauma builds character or destroys lives? Doyou think everyone should be forced to live and survive in the working world for at least a year before they're swept off in the gossamer cocoon of college with no clue of how the other 2/3 lives? That's one of my pet theories, after watching my sheltered, private-college boyfriend and the things that he considers "problems"...

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

We're all damaged goods. The question is: how much damage do we pass on?

 

[destinie21]

It all depends on what you mean by wrong.

Some simple examples:
Drinking alcohol is wrong (and illegal) in some countries. In others it is right if you are over a certain (variable) age. In others there are no limits.
Driving on the left is wrong in some countries. In others it is compulsory.
Deliberately disobeying the law of the country in which you are is "wrong" but resisting Hitler in 1943 by hiding Jews in Germany would have been "right".

As a comedian once summed it up: "Hating Germans can't be racist. I got medals at home for killing them."

As to the effect of reading/viewing on behaviour; there will doubtless be the usual cry of "it doesn't affect me" and to those who believe that I will ask, why do advertisers spend so much money on TV and newspaper/magazine ads?

You have to take things with a grain of salt so to speak if I see a commercial with a beautiful scantily clad woman in it and she just so happens to be drinking a budlight corona Baileys ect and she's surrounded by "hot" chisled guys I'm not going to be foolish enough to thhink hey all I need is a budlight corona Baileys ect and I'll be the life of the party. I enjoy James Patterson novels but I'm not going to turn into some serial Killer about it. However I wont go so far as to say the media and advertising don't affect me they do but I'm not some completly brainwaished robot. As to the Other question posed I think person learns the difference between reality and fiction at about nine and the difference between right and wrong at about 4 I picked different ages because at nine kids realize that Though wrestling power rangers and all manner of things may be cool but someone can really get hurt imitating them where as a kid of between 2 and 9 has not really learned to rationalize yet. As for the "moral difference" between right and wrong I think that comes just after the age of 3 simply because that's when most kids will begin to lie and all kids lie you might not catch them in a lie but they do it. For instance if you tell a kid don't touch that candy until after dinner then the kid take it anyway and lies when questioned then he/she knew it was wrong to take the candy and so they lie to avoid trouble.

Ps: snooper I agree with most of what you said , as far as right and wrong goes on a larger scale that all depends on your moral code and everyone's is different.

 

[Pure]

Well, it is the function of books and life to make one look twice at what's always been clear. And both sources show that sometimes it's a choice of 'moral wrong A' or 'moral wrong B' no matter which definition is used. Further the 'moral choice' is not always the one made; the 'good guys' become less clearly distinguishable (feet of clay).

 

[gauchecritic]

Well, it is the function of books and life to make one look twice at what's always been clear.

What an odd philosophy.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Well, it is the function of books and life to make one look twice at what's always been clear.

All art is quite useless. - Oscar Wilde

 

[Quint]

Not a fan of the theory. Was a very sheltered child with a nurturing household and now I cheer for the bad guys. So long as it's fictional.

 

[Wantonica]

However, I also subscribe to the Shakespearean quotation that someone on the boards uses as a sig. line. (if I recall correctly)

"There is no good or evil, but thinking makes it so."

Gauche

How sweet of you to notice, Gauche!

It is my belief that a person who is influenced by words/pictures to commit immoral acts was usually not taught reality vs. fantasy during early-childhood entertainment. Some people do have a natural tendancy to emulate others, but have learned the difference between proper and improper (moral and immoral, right and wrong) repetition of another's actions.

At what age does a person judge right from wrong independently? When he/she realizes that one action earns praise, and the other earns negative consequences. Lacking those teachings, a person may never judge correctly.

Trauma can build charecter OR damage lives. It depends what you choose to do with the trauma. Personally, I was a "wild child" who grew up to be the epitamy of professionalism... if they only knew. My upbringing appeared emotionally healthy, but in retrospect, I can understand the causes for my wildness. There is always some reason why a person from a certain situation strays into other waters. It is the ones who come from tragic circumstances and come out on top that impress me the most.

Smiles,
Wantonica