Reality vs Romance

[JackLuis]

Chivalry at sea a ‘myth’, Swedish study shows

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Drawing-of-the-sinking-Titanic-via-AFP-615x345.jpg

Imagine a giant ship slowly sinking into the sea, with the men of course standing back allowing women and children to board the life boats and themselves to stoically be engulfed by the frothy waves.

That idea of male chivalry at sea is however a complete myth, according to two Swedish researchers.

Out of the 15,142 people onboard the 18 ships sailing under eight different national flags when they went down, only 17.8 percent of the women survived compared to 34.5 percent of the men, the two researchers explain in their 82-page study titled: “Every man for himself — Gender, Norms and Survival in Maritime Disasters”.

Of course men may be stronger swimmers?

 

[sr71plt]

It would be interesting to see the statistic from the recent Carnaval cruise ship flipover off Italy.

It would also be interesting to see the statistics for the ships' captains.

 

[3113]

Of course men may be stronger swimmers?

Men might have been able to swim, period, if we're not talking about men and women in a modern age. Men were far more likely to know how to swim then women, and in any case, swimming in dress, corset and petticoats, well, not only hard but such clothes would entangle and sink the woman.

But what they seem to be talking about are who got into lifeboats. So the only question is whether they took account the fact that there were always more men aboard such ships then women (the crew was all male) when they worked out the percentages. I'm guessing they did.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Yup.

I can easily envision most men gladly climbing over a woman, then using her kids as step stools to help him get in the life boat quicker.

Then once he and his "buddies" are safe and away they can tell each other how brave and valiant they were to get there.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is one of those things where no one can say what their reaction would be until they face it.

Every guy would like to say he'd be the hero but truth of the matter is you don't know until you're in that situation. That applies for women as well. Would you nobly sacrifice your life?

All this thread will turn into is insults against men, when in reality it depends on the man (as well as the woman)

There was a story recently on yahoo about a 60+ yhear old guy who jumped into the water to save a young girl caught in a rip tide. He saved her then died of a heart attack.

So sorry Safe Bet all men are not cowards.

I realized 20+ years ago that I was willing to kill for someone close to me and came close to doing it. Would I die for someone? That has never been tested and hopefully never will.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In our vale of tears women definitely roll the dice when they select mates.

Aboard the TITANIC Captain Smith, the ships chief designer, and many wealthy men went down with the ship by choice.

At places like Auschwitz males were usually atop the piles of bodies inside the gas chambers.

Chivalry evolved when one man remained behind to deal with the lions as the women, children, and other men fled.

 

[TxRad]

And lets not forget the number one reason Chivalry evolved. The increased number of blowjobs and sex the guy got when he came home wearing the Lion skins.

JGJ keeps forgetting this is a porn writers site.

 

[Safe_Bet]

This is one of those things where no one can say what their reaction would be until they face it.

Every guy would like to say he'd be the hero but truth of the matter is you don't know until you're in that situation. That applies for women as well. Would you nobly sacrifice your life?

All this thread will turn into is insults against men, when in reality it depends on the man (as well as the woman)

There was a story recently on yahoo about a 60+ yhear old guy who jumped into the water to save a young girl caught in a rip tide. He saved her then died of a heart attack.

So sorry Safe Bet all men are not cowards.

I realized 20+ years ago that I was willing to kill for someone close to me and came close to doing it. Would I die for someone? That has never been tested and hopefully never will.

First of all douche face, I did NOT say all men were cowards. I implied that MOST men were self serving assholes, who then lie about it afterwards. There's a difference.

Secondly, thanks for the ONE documented example of a man who didn't climb over the top of women and kiddies on his way to the life boat. That's 1 vs. the 5,443 men who survived the cited ship wrecks.

So if your point is that 1 out of every 5,000 or so men ISN'T a self serving butt nugget then I guess we are in agreement! (but also means the other 4,999+ ARE!)

 

[lovecraft68]

First of all douche face, I did NOT say all men were cowards. I implied that MOST men were self serving assholes, who then lie about it afterwards. There's a difference.

Secondly, thanks for the ONE documented example of a man who didn't climb over the top of women and kiddies on his way to the life boat. That's 1 vs. the 5,443 men who survived the cited ship wrecks.

So if your point is that 1 out of every 5,000 or so men ISN'T a self serving butt nugget then I guess we are in agreement! (but also means the other 4,999+ ARE!)

Firemen risk their lives for total strangers and the majority are male. The majority of soldiers, guardsmen, police officers are men and all risk their lives for men and women and children who are total strangers to them. You're looking at one instance.

Want another instance of Male cowardness? The creator of Halo(to lazy to google his name) died sometime back. He was driving a car with his pregnant wife next to him. A car ran a red light at a high speed and was going to stroke her side of the car. he reacted by slamming the brakes and spinning the car so that it hit his side, killing him. His wife and the baby survived. Another self serving asshole.

So sure you'd risk your life for someone? So sure you'd get hit by a car for your kid? Join the crowd, but hope you never have to find out and if you do you may find you don't like the results.

Adrenalin triggers fight or flight and unless you have been there before no one knows what their reaction will be.

Sorry, but your undying hatred for the male race is showing again and its making you look foolish.

 

[Ironiclaconic]

Color me skeptical. I suspect there is something else at play here, like men being on deck running the ship and women and children trapped in the cabins below so they wouldn't get in the way or wash overboard during storms. After all, they were far more likely to be passengers than crew.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Firemen risk their lives for total strangers and the majority are male. The majority of soldiers, guardsmen, police officers are men and all risk their lives for men and women and children who are total strangers to them. You're looking at one instance.

Want another instance of Male cowardness? The creator of Halo(to lazy to google his name) died sometime back. He was driving a car with his pregnant wife next to him. A car ran a red light at a high speed and was going to stroke her side of the car. he reacted by slamming the brakes and spinning the car so that it hit his side, killing him. His wife and the baby survived. Another self serving asshole.

So sure you'd risk your life for someone? So sure you'd get hit by a car for your kid? Join the crowd, but hope you never have to find out and if you do you may find you don't like the results.

Adrenalin triggers fight or flight and unless you have been there before no one knows what their reaction will be.

Sorry, but your undying hatred for the male race is showing again and its making you look foolish.

I been in combat, and I been a fireman. When the shit hits the fan character and training take over, I never contemplated what I did. I also saved 3 suicides; one of them was a Hail Mary effort 100 miles from me. No time to think or form a plan. JUST DO IT.

 

[Stella_Omega]

[Please don't quote posts containing personal info, hotlinks, spam, or other prohibited info. It just creates more work for us in the clean-up. Thank you! - Admin]/QUOTE]beautiful voice beautiful woman.

What the fuck are those lyrics and how can she lip-sync them with a straight face!

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Firemen risk their lives for total strangers and the majority are male. The majority of soldiers, guardsmen, police officers are men and all risk their lives for men and women and children who are total strangers to them. You're looking at one instance.

Want another instance of Male cowardness? The creator of Halo(to lazy to google his name) died sometime back. He was driving a car with his pregnant wife next to him. A car ran a red light at a high speed and was going to stroke her side of the car. he reacted by slamming the brakes and spinning the car so that it hit his side, killing him. His wife and the baby survived. Another self serving asshole.

So sure you'd risk your life for someone? So sure you'd get hit by a car for your kid? Join the crowd, but hope you never have to find out and if you do you may find you don't like the results.

Adrenalin triggers fight or flight and unless you have been there before no one knows what their reaction will be.

Sorry, but your undying hatred for the male race is showing again and its making you look foolish.

Please excuse Safe Bet, she was beaten up by boys in school and when she got older men avoided her like the plague.

We must all pay the price for her sad, sad childhood and love life.

 

[Kurokami]

First of all douche face, I did NOT say all men were cowards. I implied that MOST men were self serving assholes, who then lie about it afterwards. There's a difference.

Secondly, thanks for the ONE documented example of a man who didn't climb over the top of women and kiddies on his way to the life boat. That's 1 vs. the 5,443 men who survived the cited ship wrecks.

So if your point is that 1 out of every 5,000 or so men ISN'T a self serving butt nugget then I guess we are in agreement! (but also means the other 4,999+ ARE!)

How pleasant that you're able to paint the majority of my gender with broad strokes like that- precisely the thing you become arch and spit acid about when people do it to you, either as a woman or a lesbian. I hope that you can step back and inspect your words and realize that, in fact, most men are not "self serving assholes," but are people, with all the good and bad that entails. We are no more given to self sacrifice or selfish behavior than women. And let's also be clear here: I know plenty of things I'm willing to sacrifice myself for, and I've been put into situations where I've had to make that choice before, too. My father was a physically abusive psychopath who on a couple of occasions got close to killing me, but he never once laid a hand on my sisters or my younger brother, on numerous occasions through my actions. So maybe you'll understand why I might be a little pissed at being labelled as some kind of sociopath just because of my gender.

As to the actual situation at the heart of this thread.... Well, it was a life or death situation, who can blame people for wanting to live? By rolling your eyes and getting all righteous about the idea of men surviving when women didn't, the implication is that a woman's life is somehow worth more than a man's, which of course is ridiculous. Ask yourself: what is it about the prospect of more men surviving a disaster that gets your dander up? That the men didn't all just step aside? Once again, that's making a value judgement about the sexes, contrary to your usual stance in favor of equality.

So, intellectually there's a lot of problems with what you've said, here. Obviously it would be wonderful if nobody had to die that way at all, but part of the equality you purport to want is being treated without the kid gloves in all situations.

Of course, you might just have forgot to add that, in your worldview, most WOMEN are also self serving assholes, in which case I cheerfully withdraw everything I just said. Misanthropy is something completely different, and perfectly acceptable

 

[sr71plt]

I think the amazing thing of the stories coming for the Titanic sinking is how many of the passengers and crew accepted their fate and were noble about. In that sense, it is a uplifting story about the majority of the passengers and crew.

A PBS special on the topic this evening busted a lot of myths about the sinking.

As for Safe-bet Usurper, there's really no use/need to respond to any of her rabid hatred of anything and everything. She's not going to change. Just let her stew in her hatred (and pity her children for the crap about life she pushes--and hope they manage to recover when they get out on their own).

 

[JackLuis]

Since we're all agreed then, I'll just add this bit of , "You can make up shit like this!"
I speak of course of the King of Spain.

Spanish king’s elephant hunting accident provokes outrage

The 74-year-old monarch’s fall in a park in Botswana provided an excuse for Spanish newspapers, who normally treat their royal family with kid gloves, to plaster their pages with photos of the king standing proudly in front of a dead elephant.

The king’s accident, after which he was flown back to Madrid for a hip operation, came days after his grandson, 13-year-old Froilán Marichalar, shot himself through the foot while hunting in Spain.

Some people shouldn't be allowed guns.

The family also has a troubled history with guns. The king shot and killed his own brother in an accident when he was a teenager.

See?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I like the idea of you using one thread to post all of these japeries and jests into.

 

[JackLuis]

I like the idea of you using one thread to post all of these japeries and jests into.

Just for you Stella. besides I'd push of the Modern Men's thread off the front page.

Besides no one picked up the point about reality, and the perception of that reality from any perspective but their own.

Heavy skirts and poor life saving technology could have easily shifted the sexual balance in survival.

No one suggested that a romantic ideal might be desirable but the Tax Man has to be paid, sooner or later. but I mix metaphors.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Last Sunday, my munch had a guest speaker who talked a nice mishmash of spiritual hokum and Freudian theory, but mostly he talked about projection-- how our expectations, from our selves, or based on prior experiences, will influence our transactions with the people around us.

And then I witnessed two of my friends each accuse the other of the thing she herself was doing-- two different things, in fact-- within a half hour after hearing that lecture.

So I'm positive that I too do pah-lenty of projection. Now that I'm trying to see it, I catch a glimpse once in a while-- but not nearly as much as I see in my friends, and I know that I'm not really any better than they are... Just as blind.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I call PROJECTION good awareness. Its not blindness at all. Its recognition.

Real blindness is when we're oblivious to whats happening under our noses.

 

[Safe_Bet]

How pleasant that you're able to paint the majority of my gender with broad strokes like that- precisely the thing you become arch and spit acid about when people do it to you, either as a woman or a lesbian. I hope that you can step back and inspect your words and realize that, in fact, most men are not "self serving assholes," but are people, with all the good and bad that entails. We are no more given to self sacrifice or selfish behavior than women. And let's also be clear here: I know plenty of things I'm willing to sacrifice myself for, and I've been put into situations where I've had to make that choice before, too. My father was a physically abusive psychopath who on a couple of occasions got close to killing me, but he never once laid a hand on my sisters or my younger brother, on numerous occasions through my actions. So maybe you'll understand why I might be a little pissed at being labelled as some kind of sociopath just because of my gender.

As to the actual situation at the heart of this thread.... Well, it was a life or death situation, who can blame people for wanting to live? By rolling your eyes and getting all righteous about the idea of men surviving when women didn't, the implication is that a woman's life is somehow worth more than a man's, which of course is ridiculous. Ask yourself: what is it about the prospect of more men surviving a disaster that gets your dander up? That the men didn't all just step aside? Once again, that's making a value judgement about the sexes, contrary to your usual stance in favor of equality.

So, intellectually there's a lot of problems with what you've said, here. Obviously it would be wonderful if nobody had to die that way at all, but part of the equality you purport to want is being treated without the kid gloves in all situations.

Of course, you might just have forgot to add that, in your worldview, most WOMEN are also self serving assholes, in which case I cheerfully withdraw everything I just said. Misanthropy is something completely different, and perfectly acceptable

You are right. I DIDN'T add that most women are self serving assholes because I don't think most of them are to the same degree as men. But that's besides the point cuz that wasn't what the subject was! See how that "sticking to the subject thingie thing" works??? (I didn't discuss how well my garden is doing either. Should I have?)

My point IS: most of the stories of male chivalry is nonsensical crap. Going back to mideivel times, the brave, self sacrificing, chivalrous knights were no more than raping, pillaging, murderous thugs. For every brave soldier or firefighter I can show you a thousand who ain't so brave (but that doesn't prevent ALL men from trying to pass off the valor of a VERY select few as the behavior of the many).

Bottom line is that you big, brave men can beat your cave man chests and tell each other how big and brave you are. That STILL doesn't mean that you're one iota more brave, chivalrous or valiant than the average woman. It just means y'all simple talk more shit. (but we already knew that, didn't we?)

 

[Kurokami]

Bottom line is that you big, brave men can beat your cave man chests and tell each other how big and brave you are. That STILL doesn't mean that you're one iota more brave, chivalrous or valiant than the average woman. It just means y'all simple talk more shit. (but we already knew that, didn't we?)

I quite agree. But being a loudmouth isn't the same as being self-serving, or asshole-ish, or any of the other things you've accused men of being. We're all just people, whether man, woman or sentient crystal. Which was the point I was trying to make by asserting you may have neglected to mention the asshole side of women: both genders have the capacity for bravery or selfishness in equal amounts.

I guess if I have to actually stress my point, it'd be this: gender doesn't determine personality, not completely. If a man is an asshole who'll step over a woman and leave her to die, it's not because he's a man. It's because he's an asshole. The same would be true if the circumstances were reversed.

Men and women aren't assholes. People are assholes.

 

[R. Richard]

Actually, the last moments of the Titanic were cataloged by the late, great Johnny Otis in his song, 'Shine, Shine (Save This Ass of Mine.)'

 

[Stella_Omega]

If a man is an asshole who'll step over a woman and leave her to die...

He will equally step over a man and leave him to die as well.

 

[TE999]

Fun Fact: Back in the days of sail, iron men, wooden ships and such, sailors didn't know how to swim and didn't wish to learn. Better to quickly drown than float about being a pinata for the sharks.

When it comes to survival, no one knows how he or she will act in a given situation. The desire to survive is deeply ingrained in our psyche and the thin skin of civilization is often torn under the circumstances.