Reading & Writing

[dr_mabeuse]

Something I noticed about the way I write--

My first draft isn't so good. My best writing's done by reading, when I go over the draft and fix it so it reads well. It's not a matter of writing so much as it is a matter of reading.

So the advice they always give you about blasting right through your first draft makes sense. Don't bother fixing things and getting them perfect now. Just write the damned thing and fix it then so it reads well.

It works that way because, unlike visual art, writing has to be deciphered by a different process than the one we use to create it. Painting involves looking only. You look when you create it, and you look when it's finished. But reading is a totally different process than writing, so you're never going to get it right the first time through.

I'm full of Thanksgiving ideas.

 

[Guest]

Something I noticed about the way I write--

My first draft isn't so good. My best writing's done by reading, when I go over the draft and fix it so it reads well. It's not a matter of writing so much as it is a matter of reading.

So the advice they always give you about blasting right through your first draft makes sense. Don't bother fixing things and getting them perfect now. Just write the damned thing and fix it then so it reads well.

It works that way because, unlike visual art, writing has to be deciphered by a different process than the one we use to create it. Painting involves looking only. You look when you create it, and you look when it's finished. But reading is a totally different process than writing, so you're never going to get it right the first time through.

I'm full of Thanksgiving ideas.

What kinds of pie?



I had a professor who discussed that same thing, actually. I think his initial take was more of pushing us to finish our initial drafts but it had the added result of forcing us to write first, read later.

Good ideas, Thanksgiving or no.

 

[impressive]

I'm a different kinda turkey.

 

[The_Fool]

I'm a different kinda turkey.

Do you still need to be basted with oils and caressed with spices?




Okay Zoot,

I like the idea and I am feeling contentious. More in the aspect of friendly bickering. If what you are saying is true, then the draft becomes little more than a very detailed outline of the story. I am making this statement because for so many writers on this thread have declared an anathema. I personally like outlines, but I am usually outvoted. I like to be god (with a little g) and direct the story rather than my protagonists being saddled with that responsibility.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Okay Zoot,

I like the idea and I am feeling contentious. More in the aspect of friendly bickering. If what you are saying is true, then the draft becomes little more than a very detailed outline of the story. I am making this statement because for so many writers on this thread have declared an anathema. I personally like outlines, but I am usually outvoted. I like to be god (with a little g) and direct the story rather than my protagonists being saddled with that responsibility.

I'm with you on that. I do like a strong structure to a story. It's not that I never let my characters run loose and tell me what they're like to do; it's just that I like them to do that in the pre-draft planning stages, when I can happily throw down everything in the world in very rough, brief notes and then work out how it's all going to fit together.

As Dr. M says, reading and writing are two different things. I'd also say that planning a plot, developing a character, organizing scenes, and fine-tuning prose are different things, and that they each benefit from a chance to be the main focus of action. By all means, do give the characters a chance to run the show, but also give structure a chance to get its look-in.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Something I noticed about the way I write--

My first draft isn't so good. My best writing's done by reading, when I go over the draft and fix it so it reads well. It's not a matter of writing so much as it is a matter of reading.

So the advice they always give you about blasting right through your first draft makes sense. Don't bother fixing things and getting them perfect now. Just write the damned thing and fix it then so it reads well.

It works that way because, unlike visual art, writing has to be deciphered by a different process than the one we use to create it. Painting involves looking only. You look when you create it, and you look when it's finished. But reading is a totally different process than writing, so you're never going to get it right the first time through.

I'm full of Thanksgiving ideas.

Should I have the oven on 350 for writing and reading, or will that burn my brain.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Dr M

I'm with you all the way. The plastic arts - painting, sculpture, video (I guess) - are all visual for both the creator and the spectator. The interpretation, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder and the eye of the artist (or photographer) is the same lens that the viewer looks down.

Writing is different. Every stage director (including me in my little way) interprets the play they are staging - Hamlet in modern dress? - and film directors shred and rewrite every screenplay they see.

The story is paramount, and that is what the first draft lays down, but the author 'sees' things that the reader can never hope to see. Coming to a text (as an editor often does) you can look down a different lens from you as author.

The swirly things in your head as a writer are burnt away like morning mist when you review your text as a reader.

 

[Frank Noir]

Something I noticed about the way I write--

My first draft isn't so good. My best writing's done by reading, when I go over the draft and fix it so it reads well. It's not a matter of writing so much as it is a matter of reading.

So the advice they always give you about blasting right through your first draft makes sense. Don't bother fixing things and getting them perfect now. Just write the damned thing and fix it then so it reads well.

It works that way because, unlike visual art, writing has to be deciphered by a different process than the one we use to create it. Painting involves looking only. You look when you create it, and you look when it's finished. But reading is a totally different process than writing, so you're never going to get it right the first time through.

I'm full of Thanksgiving ideas.

Thanks. That explains it...

I've noticed that my first read-through tends to turn into a more or less complete rewrite. And I'm sometimes shocked to see the kind of crap I've written in the first draft.

In fact, making music is a bit similar. Playing and listening is different. Lately, I've been copying my songs to an mp3 player so that I can listen to them on the train. That gives me a fresh perspective that I'd never get in the studio.

 

[neonlyte]

Something I noticed about the way I write--

My first draft isn't so good. My best writing's done by reading, when I go over the draft and fix it so it reads well. It's not a matter of writing so much as it is a matter of reading.

So the advice they always give you about blasting right through your first draft makes sense. Don't bother fixing things and getting them perfect now. Just write the damned thing and fix it then so it reads well.

It works that way because, unlike visual art, writing has to be deciphered by a different process than the one we use to create it. Painting involves looking only. You look when you create it, and you look when it's finished. But reading is a totally different process than writing, so you're never going to get it right the first time through.

I'm full of Thanksgiving ideas.

Leaving the Painting to one side... blasting the first draft makes sense if you can be sure you're not going to kill the piece in the successive re-writes. I'm not sure I'm disciplined enough to tackle each facet in the way Shang describes, I'm more of a pot stirrer and I'll remove the froth with a small spoon relying on the old addage that even a tough piece of meat responds to gentle cooking. But then I tend to write in the way a painter paints, that is, the final picture is only revealed after the application of successive layers, the most important of which is the base coat.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Half the fun of writing is writing. Do what works for you.

I was an engineer in my youth, and you never build a structure without making certain things are RIGHT, each step of the way. But if stream of consciousness writing is your thang, go for it. And have fun doing it.

 

[cantdog]

What kinds of pie?



I had a professor who discussed that same thing, actually. I think his initial take was more of pushing us to finish our initial drafts but it had the added result of forcing us to write first, read later.

Good ideas, Thanksgiving or no.

Nice eyes.

 

[cantdog]

Dr M

I'm with you all the way. The plastic arts - painting, sculpture, video (I guess) - are all visual for both the creator and the spectator. The interpretation, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder and the eye of the artist (or photographer) is the same lens that the viewer looks down.

Writing is different. Every stage director (including me in my little way) interprets the play they are staging - Hamlet in modern dress? - and film directors shred and rewrite every screenplay they see.

The story is paramount, and that is what the first draft lays down, but the author 'sees' things that the reader can never hope to see. Coming to a text (as an editor often does) you can look down a different lens from you as author.

The swirly things in your head as a writer are burnt away like morning mist when you review your text as a reader.

Well said.

 

[CorsetLvr]

I do a minimum of 2 read throughs before posting. The first one is mainly to fix grammatical errors and the second is mainly for readibility and content.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I keep thinking of "outline" in uncompromising terms-- makes it impossible for me to successfully complete one. Maybe, if I think of an outline as a "first draft" instead...


As far as what I've done previously, I've noticed that my earlier work is less stringently edited (and most of it isn't posted at all). I think it's because I was less able to disengage from my own words back when. I couldn't read as a reader, every word was still my baby.
Thanks Doc, great topic!

 

[trysail]

God damnit, I HATE proof-reading. Part of the reason for that fact is that writing is soooo torturous for me; it really is hellish.

Writing a post for a message board is, of course, radically different than writing for widespread print distribution. Here, I'll revise as I write- checking for errors of syntax and grammar as I go- all the while on the lookout for spelling and punctuation mistakes. When I think a post reads alright, naturally I'll preview it. In doing so, further editing invariably occurs. Hell, there have been some posts that I've previewed four and five times. Even then, with far too much frequency, I'll end up editing a message after I've posted it. I'm fortunate because my eight years of single sex elementary schooling beat spelling into my head; as a result, I'm full-on anal about it and my spelling mistakes are, on the whole, fairly rare. If there's a question in my mind, I always consult a dictionary. My weakest area is punctuation. I'm embarrassed to admit that it took a first rate business school to FINALLY pound an understanding of the correct usage of the semi-colon through my thick skull.

Another of my weaknesses is a lack of patience when it comes to writing. To my great benefit, I've learned a bit of self-control in other areas (notably investing). Unfortunately, that hasn't always transferred to writing. Most of my career required that I write in a timely manner and get the numbers right (security prices won't accomodate careful writers). I was generally willing to tolerate the occasional punctuation or grammar error in order to avoid the issuance of a report stimulated by a price of $20.50 when the price had changed by 5% to $21.50- after all, in the largely efficient market for high quality securities, 5% makes a hell of a difference.

The only way I can fight my natural tendency to cut corners in proof-reading (when writing for print distribution) is to get up and walk away, literally forcing myself to leave a draft simmering for a minimum of one night. I'm still fooling myself that even one night will do the trick; it won't.

Writing well is god damn, bitchin', hard fuckin' work.

 

[WRJames]

I grew up in thy typewriter era -- in tenth grade English class we had to turn out a five page paper every week -- really in about three days. The idea was to force us to be able to write "one draft wonders." It proved to be an invaluable skill getting through college. But -- it's probably one that doesn't even make sense in the era of the word processor.

When I write now, because revisions can be made so easily, I tend to fuss more. In writing fiction, I will often find after a first reading that what I intended to say didn't come through, or, more often, that something that I did not intend, originally, is, in fact, what I should have been concentrating on. Also, there are many times when I start a scene with only the vaguest idea where it is going, and it just flows out as I write it. Sometimes I am as astonished as any of my readers at what my characters are up to.

Related to this, I think, is the process I go through when I'm recording. This got started when I was writing up my biography for Club Lighthouse Publishing. The only one out there at the time was Terrie's, and she mentioned that she was an artist as well as a writer. So, in parallel, I talked about my composing. Then, to prove to her I wasn't blowing smoke, I recorded a short piece and sent it to her.

Well, she really liked it, so I started to record some of my longer pieces. Now, to do this, I had to come up with some sort of system. There was no way I could play through the entire piece at one shot and get a proper recording. So I developed a technique of playing a few measures at a time, until I liked the way that snippet sounded, and then piecing them together at the end. Now -- where this is related to the writing -- I might go through each snippet dozens of times, perhaps many dozens, before it was what I wanted. And this had, often, nothing to do with eecuting the correct notes. Rather, it was thinking through what that particular section of music was supposed to sound like. Even though I had written it, it was astonshing to hear what it sounded like as I played it, compared to what I thought it should sound like. I think that reading what we have written is like this also -- what we said may not be at all what we intended to say, both in the literal meaning, and the artistic effect. So that is where polishing and reshaping comes in.

 

[slyc_willie]

My 'best' pieces (the quotes are there for a reason) always pour out in a long, focused, near-maniacal shift in which I never leave the keyboard and barely even recognize the passage of time. Thirty or forty pages can fly by in just a few hours, and at the end of the session, I sit back and light a smoke.

And then I read it, slap my head, and groan, "Damn, I need to go over this."

At the same time, I've taken weeks, even months, to finish a story, writing a couple of pages at a time. And when I go over them, there aren't as many mistakes or corrections to make. However, that 'energetic' feel isn't there. I don't feel that a muse had descended, but rather, that she had taken a long vacation, checking in now and then over the phone.

 

[CharleyH]

Do you still need to be basted with oils and caressed with spices?

Okay Zoot,

I like the idea and I am feeling contentious. More in the aspect of friendly bickering. If what you are saying is true, then the draft becomes little more than a very detailed outline of the story. I am making this statement because for so many writers on this thread have declared an anathema. I personally like outlines, but I am usually outvoted. I like to be god (with a little g) and direct the story rather than my protagonists being saddled with that responsibility.

First to the good Doc: what a wonderful thread.

Second to you Fool that is no fool: What great writer, or even good writer doesn't form some sort of outline whether it be a draft or a bunch of ideas on index cards pasted on cork boards to write a novel? A short story is a separate entity because there's little build up, little, if any sub-plot, next to no characters but two and therefore little metaphor.

I am not sure that a story board is important in a short story, but I am a big believer in structure when it comes to novel-length stories. If anyone thinks they can write a novel length story based on the characters leading them rather than as you say, the author being the director I would probably call them a fool.

 

[Belegon]

First to the good Doc: what a wonderful thread.

Second to you Fool that is no fool: What great writer, or even good writer doesn't form some sort of outline whether it be a draft or a bunch of ideas on index cards pasted on cork boards to write a novel? A short story is a separate entity because there's little build up, little, if any sub-plot, next to no characters but two and therefore little metaphor.

I am not sure that a story board is important in a short story, but I am a big believer in structure when it comes to novel-length stories. If anyone thinks they can write a novel length story based on the characters leading them rather than as you say, the author being the director I would probably call them a fool.

Having spent the last 18 months getting far more involved in the process of writing than I ever thought I would and having heard many successful writers talk about how they do what the do...

Sorry, Charley. The only person I would ever hold as a fool when it came to that is a person that says any one thing MUST be a part of everyone's process. And even then I would first examine their basis for making the statement.

Certainly, for a novel length work, I need to have some structure at the beginning. Otherwise, it becomes a tangent-ridden mess. However, I still bog down and end up changing that structure.

But I rejoice in the diversity of creation. Writing is different for everyone.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Do you still need to be basted with oils and caressed with spices?

I do, I do! But who doesn't, this time of year?

Okay Zoot,

I like the idea and I am feeling contentious. More in the aspect of friendly bickering. If what you are saying is true, then the draft becomes little more than a very detailed outline of the story. I am making this statement because for so many writers on this thread have declared an anathema. I personally like outlines, but I am usually outvoted. I like to be god (with a little g) and direct the story rather than my protagonists being saddled with that responsibility.

It's wonderful the way we all approach it so differently. I very often don't know what my story's about when I start writing. I start with a visual in mind. If I had to wait for an outline, a story, I'd never write anything. I write a visual scene, a description. For the Xmas story I'm working on I started with an image of a man and a woman and a featherbed, deep winter and blazing candles, and this feeling of desperation. It was more a painterly feeling than a dramatic one. I didn't know what they were doing or why, but as I write it, I'm finding out.

I suppose that's why revision is so important to me, because I have to blow away the dirt of what's not important. My stories very often surprise me. Sometimes nothing happens in them at all and they're all description. Sometimes I don't know what they're "about". They're just occurrences. I'm not a very plot-driven author at all.

Edited to add: I've done novels without outlines and with. The ones I did without outlines are basically episodic stories--a girl's descent into a BDSM relationship, that kind of thing, where each chapter is like a stand-alone story. They're basically 2-character stories and so they're easy.

The one I did with an outline I ended up departing from the outline half-way through. I'd over-plotted the story, I learned from that to keep my outlines flexible. I don't know my characters that well when I start, no matter how much I play around with them, and I don't know what kind of wonderful ideas are going to come to me in the course of writing.

No amount of playing around with an outline can prepare me for what happens to me when I'm immersed in that story universe, rubbing shoulders with the characters and seeing what they see and feeling what they feel for weeks at a time. Suddenly the plans I'd made in one afternoon last month seem hopelessly lame and naive.

 

[CharleyH]

Having spent the last 18 months getting far more involved in the process of writing than I ever thought I would and having heard many successful writers talk about how they do what the do...

Sorry, Charley. The only person I would ever hold as a fool when it came to that is a person that says any one thing MUST be a part of everyone's process. And even then I would first examine their basis for making the statement.

Certainly, for a novel length work, I need to have some structure at the beginning. Otherwise, it becomes a tangent-ridden mess. However, I still bog down and end up changing that structure.

But I rejoice in the diversity of creation. Writing is different for everyone.

Writing MUST be different for everyone if it is to be original, yet, well you are agreeing with me in your way, Bel.