Read 14k and tell me what I did wrong?

[ElectricBlue]

"Well, he'd been a bit of a pompous ass and a bit of a lech." figure I might as well let you know, in case you make edits to it.

"Lech" = lecherous. I don't think it's a typo.

 

[CalebZhass]

"Lech" = lecherous. I don't think it's a typo.

Oh hey, and I even googled it to see if its just a word I do not know. I guess google had better things to do today than to give me the good stuff. Thanks EB, lecherous fits that sentence quite well, so I must concur with you on that it is not a typo then.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I think non-consensual is quite clear cut. If one party forces him or herself on the other without consent. The story in question has none of that. Reluctance might apply, but reluctance in an explicit context implies, that you DO something reluctantly. When you are feeling reluctant about doing something and then just decide not to do it, that's not reluctance, thats just being sensible and following your better judgement This story is just that, the protagonist is feeling reluctant about giving in to his sexual advances and then she decides to turn the tables on him instead, so no.. there is no reluctance in the story either, hence my opinion, that the categorization is a "swing and a miss".

I sort of agree, and I sort of disagree.

She was reluctant against any sort of sexual interaction with Salt, but it was forced on her. Just because she wasn't raped and she went along with his sexual harassment does not man that she was not reluctant.

That said, I agree that this story belongs in fetish.

 

[CalebZhass]

I sort of agree, and I sort of disagree.

She was reluctant against any sort of sexual interaction with Salt, but it was forced on her. Just because she wasn't raped and she went along with his sexual harassment does not man that she was not reluctant.

That said, I agree that this story belongs in fetish.

Was it though? She taunted him in the stairwell and went into the room with her camera on, taunting him even more. We (just as she did) *assume*, Salt would have forced him on her, but in reality, though he was obnoxious and definitely made comments that would have made any HR rep have a field day, he did not really get there. Not on his own anyway and definitely not without her encouragement.

I guess I might be associating the category a bit too much with the non-consensual sex and expect reluctant acts to be a lot more coerced and not so willing. Though I would still argue, that her internal monologue suggested she does not have a problem whoring herself out, so long as she knows it benefits her, which makes this less of a reluctant action and more of a power move on her part.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I sort of agree, and I sort of disagree.

She was reluctant against any sort of sexual interaction with Salt, but it was forced on her. Just because she wasn't raped and she went along with his sexual harassment does not man that she was not reluctant.

That said, I agree that this story belongs in fetish.

Thinking more about this, the main issue with the story for me, is that more than half (four, five pages, even) is him being all alpha male, steering towards a story of harassment - where his come-uppance would be fine - but then it turns on his fetish and subservience, and I'm, "Huh, where did that come from?" Then it turns the blackmail twist.

It's as if the latter two themes got bolted on in the last minute - and contributes to my comment above about schizophrenia - the story doesn't quite know what it's about. In hindsight I agree, it's more fetish - but then Salt needs to be less of an ass in the first half. I can't reconcile the two sides of him.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This must be the absolute peak of irony. The piece of shit who does nothing but game the system is giving advice if some action means gaming the system or not. Wow.

This is clearly the expert on gaming the system speaking, so I guess there are things to be learned here. By the way, how is the rest of the cabal? Still busy bombing stories that are not up to your "expert" standards? I know you are still bombing mine, I can see it every day, but I am wondering if you are keeping your project to rank the authors according to your "expertise" alive? Would be fun to see the list. Not many authors here can do comedy well, but you guys show promise.

I understand that you have beef with Thavipah, but that doesn't seem to be relevant to OP's question here, and Thavipah's reply to OP looks like a sincere response that didn't attempt to involve you in any way. If you want to revive that issue, perhaps you could take it somewhere else rather than derailing this thread.

If you have evidence to support the allegation that Thavipah's bombing your stories, I'd suggest taking it to Laurel, who's the only person who can do something about it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I know someone who nominated themselves for the recent awards with an alt account, where they cast only one nomination for themselves and made it into the final shortlist. I ended up voting for him because it was hilarious. He ended up winning his category. He's delighted.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that you can self-nominate - at least in some categories.

Em

 

[CalebZhass]

...

I was yanked out of my thoughts as her hand slammed down hard onto the table next to mine. I heard the cutlery and bowls rattle and clink together in protest. I looked over to see the man sitting across from her pick up his wine glass quickly. What was he more worried about, I wondered? Spilling the expensive Porto and letting it go to waste, or his suit getting stained by the ruby colored liquid.

The woman showed her phone's screen to him, her voice like the howl of a banshee. She began with a frighteningly calm, almost sweet tone, but by the end of her tirade she was literally screaming at him.
"Who is woman? This... Natasha? Are you sleeping with her? Are you fucking her?"

The man's face, which until this point was showing only confusion and maybe some embarrassment over his date making a scene has now changed. I saw, as for a brief fraction of a second there was shock and something else in his eyes. Fear maybe? Then the moment passed and he forced a calm and relaxed poker face onto himself, and I was jealous. I could only wish I would be this good at concealing my true feelings.
"Darling, what are you talking about? You know I would nev..."

Before he could finish the sentence, the woman grabbed her own wine glass and flat out tossed it into the man's face. He was quick enough to deflect the projectile, but could not avoid the blood colored liquid slashing onto his face and upper chest. He jumped up as well, swearing and trying to clean himself up. By this point, two waiters were next to the table, one trying to help the man clean up himself, the other trying to calm the couple.

"Don't you dare lie to me, you dipshit. I knew you were fucking someone else and now I am going to make sure you regret you were ever born!" the woman yelled, her mouth frothing from anger. You could tell, that would it not be for the waiter trying to calm her down, she would likely go at the man with the steak knife.

Eventually, two security guards showed up and asked them to leave. As the waiters were busy cleaning up the mess they left after themselves, the life in the restaurant returned to normal and I sank back into my own thoughts. I could not help but think back to a week ago, when I had a similar discussion with my now ex girlfriend. She was right of course, but what can I say, she had a nice ass, but so did Monica. At least Gina had the decency of not making a public scene when she discovered my affair.

Sorry, I know it's none of my business, but I could not resist. Well, likely because it's none of my biz.

 

[EmilyMiller]

@AwkwardlySet & @Thavipah - I don’t have an issue with either of you, but could you maybe take this outside as @Bramblethorn suggested?

Thanks

Peace!

Em

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Was it though? She taunted him in the stairwell and went into the room with her camera on, taunting him even more. We (just as she did) *assume*, Salt would have forced him on her, but in reality, though he was obnoxious and definitely made comments that would have made any HR rep have a field day, he did not really get there. Not on his own anyway and definitely not without her encouragement.

I guess I might be associating the category a bit too much with the non-consensual sex and expect reluctant acts to be a lot more coerced and not so willing. Though I would still argue, that her internal monologue suggested she does not have a problem whoring herself out, so long as she knows it benefits her, which makes this less of a reluctant action and more of a power move on her part.

That's a fair assessment, although I don't think I fully agree.

I will admit that I wasn't big fan of her internal monologue when it kept reminding the viewer that part of her was okay biting the bullet and sleeping with him in order to prevent the downfall of her career. It kind of disagreed with the rest of her thought process on the topic.

Even though I didn't care much for that part, I did find it quite realistic. I'm sure you've had a difficult decision where you kept changing your mind, arguing with yourself, and contradicting your previous thoughts. I know I have.

To me, that felt like she was rationalizing and making the best of a bad situation within her mind. "Sour Grapes" so to speak.

You are correct, he did not go through with much worse than the same, mostly verbal sexual harassment. The question is, if she had refused him, would he have attempted to tank her career? I believe that he would, which makes his actions attempted sexual extortion.

But of course, we could be mistaken. It's an interesting thought, regardless

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Salt needs to be less of an ass in the first half. I can't reconcile the two sides of him.

I actually love the discrepancy between the two sides of this awful man. So tough and wicked when he feels he has control, but scared an weak then the tables are turned. I really enjoyed it, even if it isn't a realistic representation of some real life assholes

 

[CalebZhass]

That's a fair assessment, although I don't think I fully agree.

I will admit that I wasn't big fan of her internal monologue when it kept reminding the viewer that part of her was okay biting the bullet and sleeping with him in order to prevent the downfall of her career. It kind of disagreed with the rest of her thought process on the topic.

Even though I didn't care much for that part, I did find it quite realistic. I'm sure you've had a difficult decision where you kept changing your mind, arguing with yourself, and contradicting your previous thoughts. I know I have.

To me, that felt like she was rationalizing and making the best of a bad situation within her mind. "Sour Grapes" so to speak.

You are correct, he did not go through with much worse than the same, mostly verbal sexual harassment. The question is, if she had refused him, would he have attempted to tank her career? I believe that he would, which makes his actions attempted sexual extortion.

But of course, we could be mistaken. It's an interesting thought, regardless

Of course I mean both characters portrayed in the story are more complex than a single defining characteristic.

The man is a dominant male power figure, who suddenly becomes submissive and then is dominant again.
The female is a strong independent woman desperately fighting to not be taken advantage of, but then also somewhat open to the idea of using her body to move ahead in the world.

Strange as it sounds though, to me this made the characters feel a little more life like. I don't think we are always as single minded about how we act as sometimes characters do in stories. Plus I can easily imagine an otherwise dominant, powerful personality to desire being dominated. To be able to relinquish control and be controlled for a change. This would not make them less dominant, it would be more of an escape from the daily grind for them. In that, the brief lapse into submissiveness, when he feels someone might be willing to dominate him, I can see that happen.

Also, I stand by my opinion, that the story leaves a lot of questions open, which is likely the reason we are so uncertain about these things. We ended up with more questions than what we started with. It could even be considered a good thing in a multi part story, as it definitely gives material for the sequel. It makes a single part story a bit unfulfilling, for me at least.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think we need a calming image:

https://thumb-p9.xhcdn.com/a/zxUGmMBK7CDXeQurKfLi8w/000/466/203/149_1000.gif

Well it works for me…

Em

 

[CalebZhass]

I think we need a calming image:

https://thumb-p9.xhcdn.com/a/zxUGmMBK7CDXeQurKfLi8w/000/466/203/149_1000.gif

Well it works for me…

Em

Well, I mean.. no matter how HARD I try, I just cannot get calm, regardless of how long I look at the image. In fact...

 

[Djmac1031]

I think we need a calming image:

https://thumb-p9.xhcdn.com/a/zxUGmMBK7CDXeQurKfLi8w/000/466/203/149_1000.gif

Well it works for me…

Em

Why? What'd I miss?

 

[Winter_Fare]

Too late, I resubmitted.

It will be a fitting lesson if this story climbs to a score that makes me happy just in time for Laurel to delete it. And then for all my followers to skip re-rating the replacement.

Your call, I hope it scores better in fetish, it's definitely not a three star story.

I enjoyed the psychology of it and it is an engaging story but didn't find it particularly erotic. I worry a bit that her disgust at what he's doing to her feet might be off putting to the foot crowd, and his obvious shame and regrets the morning after. I guess it works in terms of humiliation fetish.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The only part I did not like were the Chinese inserts. Having to fire up google translate in the middle of a story is just not normal. I would have suggested describing her swearing in a foreign language, instead of typing out the actual words in said language AND not providing their exact meaning. That will just prompt the reader to try and figure them out, which will immediately disconnect them from the story.

I've seen similar remarks by other people on other stories which had short non-English inserts, so this is clearly a thing for some folk, but I can't get my head around it.

There's a thing called a "grawlix". Most people don't know the word, but almost everybody's familiar with the thing it describes:



The grawlix is the keyboard-mashy-stuff in the speech balloons. We can tell they're saying something rude and angry, and the facial expressions support that interpretation. Nobody who sees that panel is likely to get hung up on trying to figure out exactly what words they're saying.

I don't read Chinese, but the first three inserts in the story are so brief and come with enough context that I can just treat them like grawlixes:

Salt left his luggage by the nearer one and checked the refrigerator. "Ho-ho!" he chortled. Then he grabbed the ice bucket and was gone.

Confused, she looked in the refrigerator herself.

"混蛋," she swore, slamming the door shut.

...

With the mindless ease of long practice, she unzipped her carry-on and found her toiletries kit and a change of clothes. Socks, panties, baggy quick-dry workout shirt.

"他妈的," she whispered.

She hadn't brought pajama bottoms.

...

Your stay is extended for free! You might be stuck here but at least you're not paying for the privilege! Betsy 8 a.m. That one had a big smiley face.

"操你妈," Lily breathed, drawing the last syllable out into an incredulous moan. "操你祖宗十八代." She'd never actually heard anyone say that one out loud before, but if ever there were an occasion for such profanity it would surely be this.

In the first one, she's obviously swearing in anger over what she's seen in the fridge. In the second, she's cursing or lamenting as she realises she doesn't have pajama bottoms. And in the third she's extremely frustrated about having to stay longer. That's all I need to know to follow the story.
The fourth insert is longer, and would be harder to guess from context, but for that one the translation is provided:

What had her father said when she brought home her first paycheck? 我不用再担心你了。 I don't have to worry about you anymore. And, 爸爸吃点苦也值得的。 This is worth everything I have suffered.

And in the last one, her self-reply tells us she's asking "what is this?":

"搞什么鬼?" she asked, but the question was rhetorical. Lily knew all too well what this was.

If we had stuff that wasn't obvious from context, provided without translation, I'd understand 100%. But I don't get why this kind of thing trips people up. Is there something different about how we read stories, that some folk are fine with figuring out the meaning from context and others aren't?

Also, I am uncertain if you did this on purpose or if it is just my interpretation, but I feel the real predator in this story is the female character. She is the one who uses the desires of her male colleague to set him up to be blackmailed later on.

Hard disagree here. He's her boss, he's been after her since she started working for him, he's using the situation to put pressure on her. She's acting in self-preservation, and the recordings are taken as insurance in case he tries anything afterwards. She goes out of her way to say him that she doesn't want favours, just to be treated like a normal employee (like she should've been able to expect all along):

"People might talk if there were anything unusual about my career afterward. In either direction."

Was it though? She taunted him in the stairwell and went into the room with her camera on, taunting him even more. We (just as she did) *assume*, Salt would have forced him on her, but in reality, though he was obnoxious and definitely made comments that would have made any HR rep have a field day, he did not really get there. Not on his own anyway and definitely not without her encouragement.

The thing about predatory guys is that you don't want things to get to the point where you find out for sure whether they're actually willing to commit rape.

But this guy has already shown plenty of intent. He's been pushing alcohol on her and making excuses to touch her. ("He toed it with the precision of a dog pacing the invisible bounds of an electric fence, having long ago learned how far he could go but always dreaming of the day the power might fail" - that's a great line, @joy_of_cooking.)

He may or may not be willing to physically force her, but he's already dropping strong hints about how her response could have major effects on her career. Coercing somebody into sex via threats is still rape, even if those threats aren't violent.

To reuse a metaphor from another recent discussion: if I point a gun at you and say "your money or your life", you might not know for sure that I'm willing to pull the trigger. But even if I'm not, even if the gun's not loaded and there's zero risk that I will actually shoot you... you don't know that, and I am counting on you not knowing that. I am using your fear that I might not be bluffing as a way to make you do something you don't want to do.

That's still coercion, even if the chamber is empty.

I guess I might be associating the category a bit too much with the non-consensual sex and expect reluctant acts to be a lot more coerced and not so willing. Though I would still argue, that her internal monologue suggested she does not have a problem whoring herself out, so long as she knows it benefits her, which makes this less of a reluctant action and more of a power move on her part.

The point of the "in either direction" line I quoted above is that she does not want any favours out of him from this incident. She just wants him to stop harassing her.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think we need a calming image:

https://thumb-p9.xhcdn.com/a/zxUGmMBK7CDXeQurKfLi8w/000/466/203/149_1000.gif

Well it works for me…

Em

"Calming?"

 

[EmilyMiller]

"Calming?"

View attachment 2302928

Distracting maybe

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

Distracting maybe

Em

Oh, I can accept that.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

he's already dropping strong hints about how her response could have major effects on her career.

Yeah, I didn't intend to leave any confusion as to whether Salt was a bad guy. Consider:

the right relationship could also be a real help to your career

You're a wolf...A lone wolf is a pitiful thing. Its days are numbered.

 

[ElectricBlue]

But I don't get why this kind of thing trips people up. Is there something different about how we read stories, that some folk are fine with figuring out the meaning from context and others aren't?

I don't get it either - the context made the Chinese gist obvious, there's no need for a literal translation. I like stories that do this - I don't know what the Chinese folk are saying in my local restaurant, but I know it's Chinese, and the story-telling becomes more genuine when a foreign language is acknowledged, even briefly.

Of course, when there are major chunks of dialogue in diacritics or runes carved in stone, a quick translation would be nice - but so far my baby blue eyes have had no success with @MediocreAuthor - even when I flatter her with ExcellentAuthor. But it's not critical and doesn't rune my enjoyment of her story...

 

[ElectricBlue]

View attachment 2302928

Simon's mom looked at the photo of her son. "I've told him to get rid of that one."

 

[MrHereWriting]

I don't read Chinese, but the first three inserts in the story are so brief and come with enough context that I can just treat them like grawlixes:

It comes down to familiar symbols. It would have come across better phonetically/in pinyin. In your example, Westerners have pretty much grown up with those symbols, so they're not as jarring as Chinese characters. Does that mean people would have had an issue with not understanding what was said, not for all, but others not so much.

A Chinese character (or any alphabet that isn't recognizable) brings you to a dead stop, but being able to pronounce what you don't understand is relatable.

 

[CalebZhass]

I've seen similar remarks by other people on other stories which had short non-English inserts, so this is clearly a thing for some folk, but I can't get my head around it.

There's a thing called a "grawlix". Most people don't know the word, but almost everybody's familiar with the thing it describes:

View attachment 2302910

The grawlix is the keyboard-mashy-stuff in the speech balloons. We can tell they're saying something rude and angry, and the facial expressions support that interpretation. Nobody who sees that panel is likely to get hung up on trying to figure out exactly what words they're saying.

I don't read Chinese, but the first three inserts in the story are so brief and come with enough context that I can just treat them like grawlixes.

I see where you are going, but I also believe you are missing the obvious there. grawlixes are universally accepted stand-ins for profanity. If he would have used them, I would immediately have known he is swearing about something and would not have thought about it even just for a second.
Alas he is using actual Chinese words and sentences and I disagree with you on the context making them obvious. Especially in the first case, where she looks into the minibar and curses.
Is she upset, there are are M&Ms in the minibar? Was she saying "damn!"? No.
Is she upset, the minibar is empty? Was she saying "cheapskates!"? No.
Heck, it is not even clear that her looking into the minibar is even connected to her calling him an asshole, so I would have to disagree with you there. If it was not clear for me, I am sure it was not clear for many others as well, as I am otherwise generally quite good at figuring out context. (generally )

More importantly though, there is a personality/mindset element at play, which also will affect a fixed (to me unknown) percentage of readers. All I know is that I am one of those people. For me, if something is written down with a seemingly legible sequence of symbols, it might carry meaning and I must know what that meaning is. Another point where sequences of gibberish written in a language the reader can read on its own, or with universal symbols solves a problem. It clarifies that I am looking at gibberish I am not supposed to read, but infer the meaning of.

I am just wired that way.

Some of the profanities were more clearly just profanities, but the principle remains. It would not have taken from the story (for me at least), by not having those profanities written out in Chinese, but use narration instead to let me know she likes to swear in Chinese.

Hard disagree here. He's her boss, he's been after her since she started working for him, he's using the situation to put pressure on her. She's acting in self-preservation, and the recordings are taken as insurance in case he tries anything afterwards. She goes out of her way to say him that she doesn't want favours, just to be treated like a normal employee (like she should've been able to expect all along):

I'm sorry, but I'm in the camp (however big or small) which firmly believes that two wrongs don't cancel each other out. She uses his lust against him, betrays and blackmails him. Someone being an obnoxious, sexist jerk doing things, which clearly constitute workplace harassment does not automatically make him a rapist or a predator. Simply making hints at how having sex with me might improve your career prospects would be grounds to get me fired, but would not make me a criminal. Me engaging in sex with you, that you only consent to believing that it might affect your career would, as that would already constitute sexual assault.

Now, let me put this down in no uncertain terms. No means no. I do not condone or try to excuse his behavior or unsolicited/unwanted advances. I am just saying, that each relationship has a power dynamic, and the power dynamic in this relationship is turned upside down in my opinion. It might start out as the clichéd boss vs subordinate one, with him exerting his power and influence to get her to submit sexually, but at the point she records him turning into a submissive foot fetishist with the purpose of gaining leverage on him, she becomes a felon herself and actually gains the upper hand in the relationship.

Heck, the way the scene reads on page 3 is more like her seducing him than him coercing her into doing something. I can see a version of interpretation, where she only does this out of desperation, self preservation, but some of her earlier internal monologues as well as her later actions work against this.
All I could see was that she saw an opportunity to seduce him and took it. As such, we never get to know if he would have acted on his impulses and turn into an actual rapist. (though I believe, based on how the character was portrayed, that he would have attempted to make a move, yes)
Instead what eventually happens is not what he originally planned, but him submitting to someone who notices his foot fetish and takes advantage of it for their own benefit. Even if that benefit is just to avoid having real intercourse with the guy.

As I indicated earlier, I also believe that her internal monologues might give the idea, that she is no stranger to using her body as a tool for advancement and even though she resents the fact, she is fine with it as long as she knows it gets her what she wants.

She could easily just have recorded their conversation and used the threat of taking that recording to HR to make him stop then and there. Especially if - regardless of her promise to not show if if he stops - she would still go to HR afterwards and get him fired for what he tried to do. At that point, her threats of blackmail could have been excused as a simple and justified acts of self preservation.

The moment she engages in seduction and tapes the whole thing she becomes more of a predator in my eyes, than he ever was in throughout the story. I would (as I have) even argue, that she is the predator of the story, not the person we originally expected to be.

The point of the "in either direction" line I quoted above is that she does not want any favours out of him from this incident. She just wants him to stop harassing her.

Another point I must disagree with you on. Yes, she says the words, but in the next line she already uses her newfound power to exert influence over him, when she corrects him not using her proper name. Also the fact that she later in the story gets off on the memory of how powerful she felt, coupled with her inherent "do whatever it takes" mentality makes it very likely in my mind that she will eventually change her mind and use her leverage over him, when needed or when another opportunity presents itself.

Also the shame and regret usually associated with being raped appear to be nonexistent when she happily shares the details of her encounter with her friend. This kinda casts a different light on the washing off the stains scene as well. What initially could be interpreted as shame and regret and the furious desire to get rid of the mark that reminds you of what has happened to you is now merely an act of trying to wash shit off your shoes you stepped in by accident.

Still, despite not agreeing with you on quite a lot of points there, I thank you for your arguments as they actually made me reread some parts of the story and rethink some of what I thought about it. It even changed my mind on a few things.