Rape in erotica - women's opinions desired

[peterpan]

Growing up, I was feed so many tales of oafish male behavior, and so many anecdotes of men claiming that 'she asked for it' and other cliche's, and so many tales of the courts siding with the male that I actually believed that if I did not take care I could become a rapist almost by accident, by reading signals wrong, or that a males urges were verging on uncontrollable.

I came across that preconception floating around in the attic of my head quite recently. Not in use. Just sitting there. It was almost a revelation to realise, hey! thats all bollocks! There was never any risk of me raping a woman, looking into her eyes and believing she secretly wanted it. Perhaps noone has ever thought that ever. It is just stated so often.

To other people who never had this mis-conception this may just sound silly. But remember all the silly things you believed as a kid until society told you different. This misconception was actively promoted.

Many of my fantasies are about non-consent just because I feel that it would greatly simplify the dating process if the woman of my dreams would kindly steal in through a bedroom window and make me enjoy myself and not take no for an answer. And If I like imagining women subjected to helpless pleasure, well have you considered that a guy can be trussed up like a chicken and STILL be the one who fails to perform, and lets the whole side down

---------------------------

I am interested in opinions by women on safe and unsafe elements of non-consent fantasies (also fun and un-fun)

Also some questions that you might think should never be asked:

Why is rape wrong? I don't mean 'Is rape wrong?'. The question is literal. I expect to be surprised by your answers because I have never asked a woman this question.

Why is rape not enjoyable? Again, sure I know, of course I do, but I haven't ever actually asked.

 

[CreamyLady]

Why is rape wrong? I don't mean 'Is rape wrong?'. The question is literal. I expect to be surprised by your answers because I have never asked a woman this question.

Why is rape not enjoyable? Again, sure I know, of course I do, but I haven't ever actually asked.

Rape is not about pleasure. Rape is about anger, and the denial of will and freedom.

Rapists do not care if their victims consent or not. They care very much that their victims give up a part of themselves, their sense of self and security. It is a "taking," in every sense of the word, and is in direct contradiction to the free will of the victim.

Should the victim survive the attack, she is left vulnerable. The "will," the sense that she has a say in what happens to her, has been violated. Her body may heal fairly quickly, depending on her injuries, but her soul, her SELF, will heal slowly, if at all.

As for why it is not enjoyable, since it takes a woman longer to reach a state of arousal than a man, and her tissues are fairly dry until she is aroused, just think about how it feels to have someone pounding into you. Think of having a knife to your throat, or a gun to your head, or even a big hand around your neck. Think of the fact that you didn't want it, you didn't expect it, and it HURTS, and this person is taunting your inability to deny him.

I, personally, do not enjoy nonconsent stories.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Rape is not about sex or orgasm. A study of rapists have concluded that they don't actually care of the orgasm or not. Rape is about power and having it over another person.

 

[Ulyssa]

Rape is the sexual form of violence.

Not the violent form of sex.

I've written only one story which could even remotely be considered NC and now that I think about it--it isn't. I'm just not an NC kind of gal.

[Edited by Ulyssa on 05-05-2001 at 07:53 AM]

 

[LovelyNikki]

Rape is ugly. Sex is beautiful. Rape is violent. Sex is consenting. Rape is punishable, sometimes by death. Sex is NEVER a crime. If, in fact, sex is PERCEIVED to be just that, it is, in fact, RAPE.

 

[Whispersecret]

Rape is wrong in real life.

However, I'm one of those people who like other types of non-consent stories. I write them and don't have a moral problem with non-consentual fantasies. As long as the woman is not humiliated and verbally and physically abused. That's too much like real rape.




[Edited by whispersecret on 05-04-2001 at 10:13 PM]

 

[PAUL C]

When is rape, rape?

I've just read the morning papers here and there is a story, no, not a story, it's true, about a boy of 16 being sent to a young offenders institution for having sex with a 15 year old girl.

Quite right, some might say. Whilst he was of an age to have sex in England she was not.

However it was not for the under-age sex that he has been sent down.

Apparantly the girl consented to have sex with him (there was no mention of him taking her virginity) and played a full and active part but as he was getting to the important bit changed her mind and reported him to the police because he didn't stop.

It was only the second time in his life he'd had sex. I bet it will be a long time before he trusts another girl.

 

[nitengale]

rape..

by definition is sex with violence and is a crime. Having sex with a minor is also considered rape, whether it is consensual or not. Period.

BTW, I think it is scary that one has to even ask "why is rape wrong?" I personally think that thought needs some looking into, counseling perhaps? How the hell does one become a rapist "by accident?" When a woman says 'no' or 'stop' it means just that. Simple words.

I think the others before have clarly stated why rape is not enjoyable.

 

[peterpan]

Hi nitengale,
Thank you for answering especially since, by your interpretation, my question was a very offensive one. I believe you interpreted it as the statement that perhaps rape was not wrong. I realised this was a risk and tried to avoid that interpretation in the wording. I suspect you would not have made that interpretation if I had been a woman. Sometimes I feel that men and women have been given two different languages that just happen to share the same sounds, and the language given to males cannot express certain concepts. All we are allowed are statements of aggression.

 

[nitengale]

nitengale responds...

Offensive? No, I just equate it with asking “Is murder wrong? Is robbery wrong?” Rape is a crime. Rape is a violent crime of a sexual nature.

Whether the person is a man or a woman asking the question, has no bearing on my perception of the question and nor my answer. What does having the same language or being able to make similar sounds have to do with the issue? My answer would have been the same had the person asked in a high voice, low voice, or in any other language.

How did my answer differ from the others?? Is it because I addressed the issue that if one has to ask, one needs counseling? Did I specifically say “peterpan YOU need help?” No.

I will address your asking why rape is not enjoyable. You said "Why is rape not enjoyable? Again, sure I know, of course I do, but I haven't ever actually asked." Why do you even feel the need to ask. Isn't this a bit like asking, "I bet that bullet hurt like hell as it entered that chest, but ya know I have never asked anyone if really does. I think I'll ask." I dunno, maybe it's me, but your 'wondering' makes me wonder.

 

[Ulyssa]

And If I like imagining women subjected to helpless pleasure, well have you considered that a guy can be trussed up like a chicken and STILL be the one who fails to perform, and lets the whole side down

I think the real problem lies in the fallacy (Phallus-y?) in this quote. There are no sides between men and women when it comes to sex even in multiple partners. I've known men who like to "carve notches in their guns" so to speak. But they tend to make Lousy lovers.

Why? Because they're masturbating themselves with a real partner (be it a woman or another man) rather than making love to another person who is allowed to love them back.

 

[peterpan]

everyone:

Thanks for your replies, but I would like to challenge some of them. I feel they generally fall into two categories: truisim and theory. Not sure if I am using that first word correctly. I mean arguments that are true by definition. If rape means bad then by definition it is wrong. By theory I mean stuff somebody else has told you. Did you need to know it to form your opinions? I bet you didn't, so why pass them to me as explanations?

CreamyLady, yes I have gone through that process long ago.

 

[Ulyssa]

The longer you live...

...The more your theories become experiential.

Nonconsensual sex within the boundries of marriage may be difficult to prosecute, but as far as my body is concerned it constitutes real rape. I've had enough experience to recognize what I'm in for and with whom.

There's a lot to be said for dinner and a bottle of champaign. Even the word no on the first night can eventually--with patience--turn into a consensual invitation over many nights.

Any attempt before that is criminal. And NO I don't know the magic number of nights it might take.

 

[Mickie]

I did some research on women's fantasies of rape before writing 'Dark Seduction'. (Research being I asked every woman I came across until they either wanted to hit me or give me a detailed answer). The consensus I came up with is that women do NOT dream of true rape (the violent, hurtful kind), they do NOT wish to be violated and have their feelings ignored. What they seem to want is an excuse to enjoy sex.

So many women are inhibited. They were raised to believe that sex is dirty and/or unnecessary for anything but procreation by parents who were doing their level best to keep their little princess out of trouble. Religion adds to this feeling if there is a religious background. (This applies also to men, and there are more than a few men out there with the same kind of fantasy).

Women who are intelligent and don't take the entire 'sex is dirty' thing hook, line, and sinker, are caught in a catch 22. They LIKE sex. They WANT to feel unrestrained in enjoying it. But the inner feelings brought about by training and parental disgust constrain them.

These are the women who enjoy fantasies of being forced to enjoy sex, not forced to have sex. The decision is taken out of their hands and they are free to be uninhibited. Most fantasies have men who care about the women, and end up falling in love with them, not just fucking them in a violent manner, then leaving. The rapist (?) usually accepts the woman, and finds her entirely irresistable during the time when she is most vulnerable. He ends up protecting her in the end (if the fantasy goes through to the end). The men in these fantasies are usually powerful, have money, and thus have the ability to protect her from the 'real' world. But, also, the rapist, during the story, must show a vulnerable side that is not apparent in the beginning, and the woman then gains some control over the relationship using that vulnerability.

Now, this is all from a relatively small portion of research, so there are other people who dream of other things, I'm sure. (The women I talked with are all intelligent and strong women, several of whom have abuse issues in their backgrouds, both sexual and emotional.)

Why is rape wrong? Real rape, as stated a few times before, is violent, and not about sex at all. It has nothing to do with enjoyment by the victim. It has to do with the sick individual who rapes. It's a self-centered crime, and the woman ends up feeling less appealing during sex, not more. It's a taking, not a giving. A taking of the victim's right to decide. In reality, that doesn't lead to a good feeling, it leads to powerlessness and helplessness. In fantasy, it can lead to freedom of expression, but that isn't reality. Sexual congress with a child is wrong because the child is considered too young to make a decision that is rational and based on reality. It doesn't matter if they say yes or no, the decision should never have been an issue.

Why is rape in reality not enjoyable? Hell, I like pizza, but if I'm forced to eat it when I don't want it, it makes me want to throw up, and it pisses me off. Rape outside of fantasy involves real fear - whether of losing one's life, or just losing one's ability to decide about their life. If a woman is terrified she isn't going to be aroused. Plus, we are all taught from birth that sex is a private thing. Rape is 'worse than death' according to every romance novel I've ever skimmed. Women are taught not to fight back in every kind of way, from police advice to the threats the rapist makes. Both anger and fear advance with each time they are told that their own feelings don't matter. Arousal is out of the picture.

Also, the arousal of a woman is based more on the psychological experience than the physical. Jumping on her and doing a quick belly dance is only going to inspire fear and anger, and sometimes bewilderment. The fantasy kind of rape takes the time to cater to her psychological needs, bringing on a tension that leads to arousal. The most effective fantasy provides a reason for the victim to abandon fear in favor of arousal.

Rape IS wrong, because the reality of it hurts the victim. Fantasy rape is theraputic, given that the imagination of the victim can focus on her/his needs instead of the attacker's. If they want a man to accept them, they can make it so. The reality of a fantasy is that the fantasizer (bad word, but all I can come up with at the time) has complete control while thinking about losing control. It's a paradox, but effective.

Mickie

 

[Egghunter]

Just a quick thought...which may or may not apply to anything said so far...


You may want to consider the diffeence between "ravishment" and rape....

Mu mom used to have all these "romances" lying around the house that seemed to be alll about some wide-eyed innocent being carried off by the swashbuckling pirate, firece desert warrior, etc...that always ended happuly ever after.....

 

[Whispersecret]

Well said, Mickie. That's exactly how I feel, but I didn't have the energy to write all that. My nonconsent novella followed your model EXACTLY. That must make me typical. Hmmm. Not sure I like that. LOL

 

[Ulyssa]

You may want to consider the diffeence between "ravishment" and rape...

That is an excellent point. In those romances the heroine always had pages and pages of close together hair bristling up on end--panties getting slowly wet time to churn up her juices.

And the ravisher always chose to be "gentle" at the last second. Cliche--but boy did it sell!

 

[DarlingBri]

These are the women who enjoy fantasies of being forced to enjoy sex, not forced to have sex.

I've problems with that one, Mickie While you are obviously hedging a bit and looking at only a subsection of women who have rape fantasies, not every woman who has them includes enjoyment in her visceral cinema.

As Egghunter points out, there is a distinction between ravishment and rape. We should be paying closer attention to it.

A ravishment fantasy, when had by a woman, is about giving up control. I believe that is largely the type discussed in this thread to date. A rape fantasy, when had by a woman, is about taking control. Through fantasy, the woman is in control of the rapist.

True rape fantasies are not uncommon in women who have suffered serious sexual abuse; it's a coping mechanism.

If you've ever watched children in play therapy, you will see that they will take the dolls, the car, and the truck and recreate the traumatic car accident over and over and over again. The truck will never miss the car. But they are in control of the accident through play. They are in fantasy mode.

*****
PeterPan: I'll tell you what. Let's turn the tables here. I'll take something bigger than a broom handle but smaller than a baseball bat and shove it up your arse. Then you can tell me why rape is wrong.

I imagine that even merely considering the prospect should answer your question. I'm not sure what the point of asking it is in the first place. Do you really need this explained to you?

 

[lavender]

 

[nitengale]

by definition is sex with violence and is a crime.

I think the element of violence that people add in the definition of rape is out of date.

Especially for young women, these days, it is more likely that they will be drugged than visciously assaulted.

If rape is just about control and violence for a man, then why do men choose the route of intoxication or drugs? There have to be those who use it as a tool of pleasure, absent the violence.

First of all the definition of rape:
Sexual intercourse forced on a nonconsenting person in which they have been violated.
Violence: harm done by violating someone's rights; a violent act against someone.

It still fits. Rape is a violent act against someone, whether they are drugged or not, whether they remember or not. Men choose the drugs to weaken the victum, and is this not using strength although not a physical strength?? I think it is. The Date rape drug, Rohypnol (FLUNITRAZEPAM) is frequently used in bars, clubs, and parties as a cheap way to get high, and as a way to inhibit others, making them vulnerable to sexual assault. The drug's use for this purpose is climbing dramatically. So if the drug is used for this purpose with an intent to rape (unconsensual sex) then a violent act is being committed. Violence does not always have to be associated with someone getting the shit kicked out of them along with being raped. What label would you put on the act of drugging someone, raping them, but in the attempt to drug them you assisted with an overdose and they are killed? She may not have bruises to speak of, but...

Sorry, I totally disagree with anyone saying rape is not associated with violence.

 

[Mickie]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mickie
These are the women who enjoy fantasies of being forced to enjoy sex, not forced to have sex.
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I've problems with that one, Mickie While you are obviously hedging a bit and looking at only a subsection of women who have rape fantasies, not every woman who has them includes enjoyment in her visceral cinema.
______________________________________________

DarlingBri --
Okay, I'll admit that my research involved a very small cross-section of women. Since I know very few women who have experienced violent rape, I really shouldn't generalize. The kinds of things that happened to the women I talked with were along the lines of incest, which involves a betrayal of parental roles, and not necessarily in a violent manner. Their fantasies would differ from women who have different experiences.

I suppose the conclusion you could make is that fantasies vary with both past experiences and with personalities. The focus would change with each individual. Violence could be the factor, and seduction could be completely out of bounds.

However, I fail to see how fantasizing about violent rape by the victim is taking control of the rapist. The victim is re-living the horror of being helplessly violated. Unless the victim can change what actually happened, I'd say it's a sign of being 'stuck' in helpless mode. Please explain.

Why do I want to know? Because I like to know how the mind works. Because I like to write from an informed perspective, and I think in hopelessly psychological circles.

Whisper -- I read your novel. Liked it. In fact, it inspired 'Dark Seduction'.

Mickie

 

[DarlingBri]

However, I fail to see how fantasizing about violent rape by the victim is taking control of the rapist. The victim is re-living the horror of being helplessly violated. Unless the victim can change what actually happened, I'd say it's a sign of being 'stuck' in helpless mode. Please explain.

Oh God, the pressure.

Well, I certainly agree that the "ravished" scenario talked about here is more common, and more commonly acknowledged. Helen Hazen wrote that "these fantasies actually empower women. By fantasizing about being a rape victim a woman could turn the situation into an expression of her power by reversing the episode into a welcomed passionate encounter."

You might be interested in her book, Endless Rapture: Rape, Romance, and the Female Imagination (Scribner's, 1983.)

The other type of fantasy - the less often talked about - deals more with purer issues of sadism and masochism. People who have been sadistically victimised can carry great rage. (I use the term "victimised" particularly here; I'm not referring to consensual D/S/M activities.)

If the situation of your victimisation is one in which the power of gender roles is underscored by the very nature of the assault, you learn, on some level, two things:

1. The sadist has all the power.
2. Women are the victims.

One way to work through these issues is through fantasy. Particularly fantasy in which the imagining woman identifies with the male attacker in her fantasy. She is not identifying with the female here; this fantasy is about power roles, NOT gender roles. Thus, she is mentally in the power position.

The fantasy can also be an outlet for the woman's own rage; she transfers it to the female victim existent in her mind. Given the state of our society and her own experiences, this woman may simply be unable to conjure up a male in the victim role.

These fantasies are about power, particularly the need to have "power over." The type of fury these types of women carry can also result in a mental and/or emotional desire to cause pain, an integral aspect of this type of fantasy. We are familair with this phenomena to some extent in generation circles of child or spousal abuse. It's not an alien concept, just one which we rarely apply to women.

And, you know, all the psychology aside, there are some women who simply get off on pain. In the exact reverse of the above, such a woman will find the vision of a fantasy victim - either herself or another - experiencing pain, degridation, and fear to be stimulating. In that case, she's identifying with the victim, not the attacker.

[Edited by DarlingBri on 05-05-2001 at 04:49 PM]

 

[DarlingBri]

Ick

Sorry, that was poorly explained, poorly worded, and not well organised.

Apologies; I've been up for 21 hours. I have to go to bed now

 

[Mickie]

Thanks, DarlingBri. Half asleep or not, it made sense. This brings to mind a friend of mine who was attacked repeatedly by a neighbor when she was a little girl. She decided she was going to be a boy, and no one could talk her out of it. It drove her mother crazy, but no one knew why she felt that way.

Taking on the power by identifying with the attacker instead of the victim. Scary, actually. It leads one to think that the victim could become the attacker later in life. I suppose that explains a lot of the abuse cycles that go on in families.

Anyway, run off to slumberland. Sweet dreams, and all that. I'll be heading that way soon, myself.

Mickie

 

[Mischka]

I think the element of violence that people add in the definition of rape is out of date. Especially for young women, these days, it is more likely that they will be drugged than visciously assaulted.

Originally posted by nightengale
First of all the definition of rape: Sexual intercourse forced on a nonconsenting person in which they have been violated. Violence: harm done by violating someone's rights; a violent act against someone.

It still fits. Rape is a violent act against someone, whether they are drugged or not, whether they remember or not. Men choose the drugs to weaken the victim, and is this not using strength although not a physical strength?? I think it is. ...Sorry, I totally disagree with anyone saying rape is not associated with violence. [/B]

All rapes stem from power over and violation of the victim. However, I believe lavender was trying to say that the universal connotation of "violence" with rape undermines the distinctions within this crime and actually discourages some victims from reporting their experiences.

Rape statutes are currently undergoing a major overhaul to differentiate the levels of assault. Just like there is first degree, second degree, and third degree murders and assaults, many jurisdictions are re-defining "rape" in terms of first degree, second degree, and third degree sexual assaults. First degree sexual assaults are reserved for violent attacks by strangers. Second degree sexual assaults are committed by known assailants with a weapon or overt threat of severe bodily harm (including drugs). Third degree sexual assaults encompass what is traditionally known as date rapes, with no overt threats of bodily harm or weapons.

Characterizing all rapes as violent unfortunately brings to mind only first degree, or perhaps second degree, sexual assaults. It is estimated that the majority of rapes are actually third degree sexual assaults, however. But the persistent connotation of violence discourages many of these women from reporting their crimes, since their experiences do not "match" what they believe to be a rape.