Ranking Victimization

[Sandia]

The discussion between glam and Zip and Queersetti in glam's "fag...dyke" thread made me think of a related topic: How do you rank victimization?

Are gay men more/less discriminated against than bi women?

How about blacks vs. gays?

Poor straights vs. rich gay men?

Gay people vs. the physically unattractive?

 

[ExistentialLuv]

No comment on this thread really. Only this, if you listen to what people say about you, you are giving them the power to victimize you. Don't be a victim and do not give the pricks the power.

 

[MzChrista]

You cant rank it for individuals. Thats like saying if I drop a hammer on my toe does it hurt more than if you drop one on your toe.
But for groups you have to be blind to not see that some groups get the short end of the stick a lot more than other groups.
And not all discrimination is the same. Lesbians get discriminated against in a different way than gay men do. You cant say one is worse.
Theres an old joke about if youre not a gay black woman from the third world you are an oppressor and thats true to some degree.
Im victimized because Im lesbian but Im privileged because Im white.Im an American so I get a shitload of breaks right there that a lot of people in the world dont get. But Im a woman in America so there are breaks I dont get that men do.
The thing is I recognize where Im at in all that. I am not about to tell a black person that they got nothing to cry about compared to me. And I aint much interested in listening to anyone tell me that I have it made either.
So none of that probably answers your question but I think there isnt any way to rank it except by being self centered about your own group.

 

[Lyonheart]

I agree with MzChrista, it is all personal, and relitive. That sead, there is nothing that I find more anoying then people that are convinced that they are more of a victim then anyone else. I had a conversation with a high school age black guy that works with me about how the diferent people in my family came to this country, about the Irish Potato Famine, about working class conditions in factorys and coal mines, about the company store and black lung...

The point I made to him is that what it's about is not who did what to who...

Human Kinds abillity to victomize is blind to shape, color, creed, sexual oriantation, and anything else...
but often uses them as an excuse...

What maters is not what has come before, but that we stand up for areselves and others, and never let it happen agean, and strive to stop it when it does...

 

[Etoile]

Hey, ExistentialLuv - nice av!

 

[Sandia]

MzChrista, you said: you have to be blind to not see that some groups get the short end of the stick a lot more than other groups.


And

I think there isnt any way to rank it except by being self centered about your own group.

Which groups get the sort end of the stick more than other groups?

Is there any way to rank it except in reference to straight white males?

You cant rank it for individuals. Thats like saying if I drop a hammer on my toe does it hurt more than if you drop one on your toe.
But for groups you have to be blind to not see that some groups get the short end of the stick a lot more than other groups.
And not all discrimination is the same. Lesbians get discriminated against in a different way than gay men do. You cant say one is worse.
Theres an old joke about if youre not a gay black woman from the third world you are an oppressor and thats true to some degree.
Im victimized because Im lesbian but Im privileged because Im white.Im an American so I get a shitload of breaks right there that a lot of people in the world dont get. But Im a woman in America so there are breaks I dont get that men do.
The thing is I recognize where Im at in all that. I am not about to tell a black person that they got nothing to cry about compared to me. And I aint much interested in listening to anyone tell me that I have it made either.
So none of that probably answers your question but I think there isnt any way to rank it except by being self centered about your own group.

 

[Queersetti]

The discussion between glam and Zip and Queersetti in glam's "fag...dyke" thread made me think of a related topic: How do you rank victimization?

Are gay men more/less discriminated against than bi women?

How about blacks vs. gays?

Poor straights vs. rich gay men?

Gay people vs. the physically unattractive?

I agree with MzChrista that it is much to complex a paradigm to allow any sort of simple ranking. When we consider that many people cross over between groups, that becomes clear. Your own list of examples alludes to this, in that a wealthy gay man will be privileged in many ways over a poor straight man, and certainly over a poor woman of any orientation.And how to we assign discrimination. To what degree are is a black lesbian discriminated against because of her gender, because of her color, or because of her orientation?

What we can measure, in a rough way, is proportionality. Clearly, blacks in America face more discrimination than whites. That does not mean there are no instances of discrimination against whites, but the preponderance of discrimination is heavily weighted against blacks.

Similarly, discrimination based on sexual orientation falls far more heavily on gays than it does on straights. That does not mean there are no cases of straights being discriminated against, but in the overall picture, they are overwhelmed by the amount of discrimination against gays.

There is also the matter of degree in kind as well as frequency. Discrimination in practice can range from a subtle snub all the way up to murder. Who except those who feel it can judge it's severity? Is being denied a job because of your color better or worse than being refused a mortgage because of your orientation?

As I maintain that straights can not judge the pain felt by gays, neither can I, as a man, judge that which is inflicted on women, or as a white person, that felt by people of color. So, ultimately, your question is unanswerable.

 

[Pookie]

I agree with Q. One point I would like to add though is that of the "groups" mentioned, only one group as a whole is legally discriminated against today. That is the GLBT citizens of this country.

Up until late June, we were "outlaws" in the eyes of our very own government because of the sex we had with our lover. The intimacy that we shared made us criminals in the eyes of the courts. Many laws have been enacted to strip rights from the GLBT population. Every other group has their constitutional rights to fall back on. We're still fighting for all of our constitutional rights.

Even with the Supreme Court decision in late June, we are still second class citizens. There are still many laws in place that deny basic rights to us that every other group has by virtue of citizenship.

Not that other groups are immune to discrimination at various times, but the discrimination to other groups is not allowed by law as it is with the GLBT citizens of this country.

 

[ExistentialLuv]

Hey, ExistentialLuv - nice av!

Thanx Etoile for the use of it. It fits me so well. I love being wierd and off the wall. By the way did those links get through to you for the AVs?

 

[Sandia]

Queersetti: I agree with you to an extent, but the examples you used were both examples of comparing victimized groups to straight white males.

Is there any way to rank the proportionality of discrimination except in reference to straight white males?

I'm thinking that you're saying there's not, but I'm not sure.

 

[Queersetti]

Queersetti: I agree with you to an extent, but the examples you used were both examples of comparing victimized groups to straight white males.

Is there any way to rank the proportionality of discrimination except in reference to straight white males?

I'm thinking that you're saying there's not, but I'm not sure.

I think we can probably all agree that straight white males as a group suffer the least discrimination in our society. But setting them as some sort of a standard may not be fair. We should acknowledge that there are areas such as child custody, where they can fairly claim to be discriminated against. Who am I to say that losing the rights to custody of one's child is less painful than any discrimination I have suffered?

 

[Netzach]

Straight able bodied *rich* white males.

Non jewish.

And not Italian, either.

Um...wait, it's getting murky in here.

 

[Netzach]

I remember the "how are you an oppressor how are you oppressed" diversity workshop, where we all went through our various crap.

Last woman in the room was a black lesbian. A big black lesbian. How could a big black lesbian *see herself* as an oppressor, be an oppressor, be advantaged?

"I'm right handed" she said.

I decided then that she was totally cool.

It's not about ranking and kvetching, it *is* however about recognizing how we are oppressors and how we are oppressed and being cognizant of these things, being able to be honest with oneself about privilege and disadvantage.

Privilege and disadvantage, in different proportions and in different areas *are* the human condition.

Let's stop feeling threatened because we're not only the beaten up martyr and get over it.

I'm white, I'm educated, I'm reasonably healthy, I live in the US. These things are as critical and weigh in *as much as* the fact that I'm a woman, I'm from the working class and I remain in it, I'm short, and I'm Jewish. To hide behind the latter part is as wrong as it is to ignore it blissfully and assume I'm on an even playing field, that we all are.

Nope.

I have no problem admitting that in 9/10ths of the situations that matter, though I'm left handed, I reap benefits the the black lesbian in my workshop didn't. However, she was cool enough to be cognizant of the things that the rest of us take completely for granted, unless we are reaching for a doorknob or a scissor.

 

[lavender]

Re: Re: Ranking Victimization

I agree with MzChrista that it is much to complex a paradigm to allow any sort of simple ranking. When we consider that many people cross over between groups, that becomes clear. Your own list of examples alludes to this, in that a wealthy gay man will be privileged in many ways over a poor straight man, and certainly over a poor woman of any orientation.And how to we assign discrimination. To what degree are is a black lesbian discriminated against because of her gender, because of her color, or because of her orientation?

This is a wonderful post, and I have to agree with you almost fully.

At the same time, I think the most pervasive discrimination in our society is the one that can transcend all races, genders, and sexual preferences - that is class discrimination.

Within the classes there is discrimination based upon all the other factors, but class may determine more for people in our society today than ever before.

But I realize there are ample arguments against this point of view.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Re: Re: Ranking Victimization

This is a wonderful post, and I have to agree with you almost fully.

At the same time, I think the most pervasive discrimination in our society is the one that can transcend all races, genders, and sexual preferences - that is class discrimination.

Within the classes there is discrimination based upon all the other factors, but class may determine more for people in our society today than ever before.

But I realize there are ample arguments against this point of view.

I agree with you about the importance of class.
Not only does class discrimination, which I agree is on the increase in America, cause harm in it's own right, but it also exacerbates all the other forms of discrimination that we are still plagued by in our society.

 

[Sandia]

I think money is far and away the most important "privilege" in America - more important than class, except in the sense the two are the same.

You can buy pretty much anything with money - health care, status, safety, food, shelter, freedom, etc., all of which are more important than race, gender, or orientation.

And when it comes to getting money, far more important than race, gender or orientation are the other accidents of birth: who your parents are, whether you happen to be good-looking, sociable, or intelligent. Or whether you're born poor, to parents who don't care about you, or cursed with mental illness.