Random Sam thought...

[Samandiriel]

Can those who are truly evil know love?

and

Can those who know love become truly evil?


Thoughts??

 

[Samandiriel]

where the fuck is CharlyH when you need her to incoherently ramble an answer?

 

[cloudy]

I dunno about evil but stupidity sure doesn't preclude it.

I would say true evil would be unable to accommodate any love but love of self.

 

[angelicminx]

Can those who are truly evil know love?

No, I don't think so. At least not love as 'we' know it.


Can those who know love become truly evil?

Again, I don't think so. Angry, yes. Vindictive, to a certain level. Truly evil? Not a chance.

 

[Recidiva]

Can those who are truly evil know love?

and

Can those who know love become truly evil?


Thoughts??

Yes.

Yes.

 

[rgraham666]

Haven't the slightest.

Never known true evil.

 

[damppanties]

Can those who are truly evil know love?

and

Can those who know love become truly evil?


Thoughts??

Point 1. No one is born evil.

Point 2. I guess evil people do have hearts, even though they're buried under all the evilness. But it's there, somewhere.

So, I'd say yes and yes to the questions.

But then maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

I would think the question that's harder to answer is: Can love and evilness co-exist?

 

[Samandiriel]

Yes.

Yes.

Elaborate oh wise one?

 

[Recidiva]

Elaborate oh wise one?

Evil and good are a spectrum. It just means you have the capacity for one or the other. It's like saying "can a really big vessel be completely empty or completely filled?"

Yes and yes.

You can truly love and still be evil. The love is what you feel. The evil is the actions you take.

If you've known love, than you know the darkness that comes with it, fear of losing, fear of pain, fear of loss. If you truly lose and your light is gone and all that's left is the darkness, it's not a measure how how much love you felt, it's a measure of how much you miss it, again, in your actions.

It's partly why our worst bad guys either loved (Dracula cursed God when his beloved died) or lost...and their response to that loss was their reaction. That or their response to having love "control" them, and thus rejecting love.

 

[Samandiriel]

Evil and good are a spectrum. It just means you have the capacity for one or the other. It's like saying "can a really big vessel be completely empty or completely filled?"

Yes and yes.

You can truly love and still be evil. The love is what you feel. The evil is the actions you take.

If you've known love, than you know the darkness that comes with it, fear of losing, fear of pain, fear of loss. If you truly lose and your light is gone and all that's left is the darkness, it's not a measure how how much love you felt, it's a measure of how much you miss it, again, in your actions.

It's partly why our worst bad guys either loved (Dracula cursed God when his beloved died) or lost...and their response to that loss was their reaction. That or their response to having love "control" them, and thus rejecting love.

I've missed you.

 

[Recidiva]

I've missed you.

I've missed you too, bestest of dark ladies.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I would say true evil would be unable to accommodate any love but love of self.

Concur.

 

[Guest]

I would say true evil would be unable to accommodate any love but love of self.

but then is it really love?


what one person sees as evil isnt what the next will.

i dont think there are many people in the world who are ALL evil.

 

[Salvor-Hardon]

I think this is a case of where english falls a bit short in its words. I think evil cannot know "agape" or the selfless love that has no conditions, but it can experience "storge", "phileo" and "eros". Evil finds like minds to bond with, in fact given the Charles Manson or Jim Jones examples, Evil even craves those to be with in a family or group.

There are the fascinations that Evil is drawn to, apocryphal as it may be but Hannibal Lechter listening to opera shows evil loving concepts, experiences, even instances of beauty.

And evil is aroused, evil is stirred in its passions.


But I doubt that evil can love without cause or condition.

 

[Frank Noir]

I don't believe in evil.

I think what we percieve as evil is really selfishness, stupidity, hate, insensitivity and so on and so forth.

And any or all of these can co-exist with love. How else would you explain crimes of passion?

 

[amicus]

Can those who are truly evil know love?

and

Can those who know love become truly evil?


Thoughts??

~~~

Dunno a 'random Sam thought', but I like the premise.

Wonder also if for a writing project or a personal question...


Thought to pass this thread by...but found myself while doing domestic things, thinking about the question...sighs...

***
(online dictionary)

love (lv)n.1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.

3. a. Sexual passion.b. Sexual intercourse.c. A love affair.

4. An intense emotional attachment, as for a pet or treasured object.

5. A person who is the object of deep or intense affection or attraction; beloved. Often used as a term of endearment.

6. An expression of one's affection: Send him my love.

7. a. A strong predilection or enthusiasm: a love of language.b. The object of such an enthusiasm: The outdoors is her greatest love.

8. Love Mythology Eros or Cupid.

9. often Love Christianity Charity.

10. Sports A zero score in tennis.v.

loved, lov·ing, loves v.tr.

1. To have a deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward (a person): We love our parents. I love my friends.

2. To have a feeling of intense desire and attraction toward (a person).

3. To have an intense emotional attachment to: loves his house.

4. a. To embrace or caress.b. To have sexual intercourse with.

5. To like or desire enthusiastically: loves swimming.

6. Theology To have charity for.

7. To thrive on; need: The cactus loves hot, dry air.v.intr.

To experience deep affection or intense desire for another.Idioms: for love Out of compassion; with no thought for a reward: She volunteers at the hospital for love. for love or money Under any circumstances. Usually used in negative sentences: I would not do that for love or money. for the love of For the sake of; in consideration for: did it all for the love of praise.

in love

1. Deeply or passionately enamored: a young couple in love.

2. Highly or immoderately fond: in love with Japanese painting; in love with the sound of her own voice.


~~~

e·vil play adj.

e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.

2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.

3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.

4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.

5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious:

an evil temper.n.

1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.

2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.

3. An evil force, power, or personification.

4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.adv. Archaic In an evil manner.

~~~

I thought perhaps a ‘definition’ of the words, rather than subjective opinions might clarify the issue; it does not.

So I went to my trusty 14 pound Random House Unabridged that I have carried from place to place for a quarter century or more…and found about the same definitions….again, no clarity.

Thus I offer, from memory, a definition of both love and evil from the writings of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism.

It is not an answer to memorize or live by, but an expansion and a refinement of both concepts, that in my mind, offer an avenue of understanding.

~~~

Love, for another person, is the recognition of the values of human life, in that other person. Love is the respect and admiration of another human life for its uniqueness and adherence to the basic nature and definition of life itself; independence, self esteem, honor and dignity in one’s thoughts and actions.

One could and many have, written a book on this word and the subject; in essence, love is a worship of life.

~~~

Evil on the other hand, should be comprehended as the opposite of love.

Evil is destructive of human values. As love worships and promotes life, evil abhors and destroys life.

Love will be destroyed or corrupted by evil.

Evil exists only if welcomed by love.

Love cannot accept evil.

Evil will destroy love.

~~~

Thus, by definition, my answer to both your questions must be...no.

Grist for the mill...


Amicus...

 

[Recidiva]

Evil on the other hand, should be comprehended as the opposite of love.

Evil is destructive of human values. As love worships and promotes life, evil abhors and destroys life.

Love will be destroyed or corrupted by evil.

Evil exists only if welcomed by love.

Love cannot accept evil.

Evil will destroy love.

Love is an emotion. Wanting something to be in your life.

Hate is an emotion. Wanting something to be gone from your life.

Good and evil are tactics.

Evil person, for example, loving someone means you might hate and blame the person you want in your life, because you believe they are the cause for making you weak and it's all an illusion.

Good person, for example, loving someone, means you cherish and support the person you care for, want them to remain who they are, and you believe they are the cause for making you feel stronger and a better person.

Love can definitely accept evil. One of the only actual "weapons" against evil is forgiveness.

Evil can't destroy love, any more than love can "destroy" evil, it just transforms it into something else, it's the opposite of forgiveness, it's judgment.

Love is not a choice. The initial love remains. How it's responded to, is the key.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Love is an emotion. Wanting something to be in your life.

Hate is an emotion. Wanting something to be gone from your life.

Good and evil are tactics.

This is useful. The same individual may use both tactics at different times. An individual whose overall strategy for living is to use evil tactics can fairly be characterized as an evil person. Hitler was good with dogs and ("aryan") children, but it is still fair to characterize him as an evil human being.

 

[Recidiva]

This is useful. The same individual may use both tactics at different times. An individual whose overall strategy for living is to use evil tactics can fairly be characterized as an evil person. Hitler was good with dogs and ("aryan") children, but it is still fair to characterize him as an evil human being.

I measure evil as the amount of destruction you're willing to commit (or looking forward to commit) in order to gain from it.

Even evil acts have good consequences and good acts have evil consequences. I don't think there's any such thing as a 100% evil or a 100% good person.

Once you start entering the chaos of making decisions and navigating consequences, it turns into ripples of gray.

I think the most effective, and scariest people, don't identify themselves with good or evil, they just choose their tactics according to the situation. They're harder to predict, and it's easier for someone identifying with one side or the other to underestimate them.

This is why I consider it a spectrum and a capacity. Hitler encouraged abstinence from alcohol, tobacco and stressed a good diet. He gave a gold watch to officers who quit smoking.

However, his reasons were hateful:

"Hitler himself detested tobacco, which he called "the wrath of the Red Man against the White Man, vengeance for having been given hard liquor." But the antismoking campaign reflected "a national political climate stressing the virtues of racial hygiene and bodily purity" as well as the Fuhrer's personal prejudices. The same could be said of Nazi efforts to discourage drinking and encourage a better diet."

The amount to which you judge others, make them responsible for your lot in life, and consider them somehow less than you and therefore should be ruled by your will, is what I would consider evil.

Whereas the more you forgive others, leave their will and intentions intact and refrain from destruction is a "good" tactic.

In this world, though, being fully "good" means you will probably be bullied to death. Being evil means you'll be hunted down by a mob with pitchforks.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[rgraham666]

First, like it or not, evil is a relative concept. Whether something is good or evil is decided in turn by the powerful, the victors and eventually, the historians.

With the exceptions of the sociopaths, and the truly insane, everyone is capable of love. Luckily both are rather rare.