Random Rant: Nothing Personal

[SeaCat]

I don't see how it is unreasonable to smokers to allow non smokers a little un smoke infused air.

Dar,

I am all for allowing non smokers their non smoke infised air. However I am also all for allowing me to enjoy my cigar. There has to be a middle ground, unfortunately the non smokers refuse to allow for that middle ground.

Here in West Palm Beach the town closed down a Cigar Shop because it allowed smoking on it's premises. The reason? Because the non smokers were offended by it. Um hello? How was the smoking of cigars inside the shop offensive? (The shop's air was evacuated through a precipitator.)

Cat

 

[SeaCat]

And Seacat smokes stogies....hmmm

Rant aside, if indeed the EPA report is flawed, why then the immense push to ban smoking in many places? Just today, I heard on the news that New Jersey has a law pending that would ban smoking in ones private automobile.

amicus...

Actually yes I do smoke Cigars. Panatellas. Usually Garcia Vegas although I have a friend who travels to the Bahamas every now and then who brings back Cuban Cigars for me. (They are legal there.)

Cat

 

[Dar~]

Okay, as hokey as it sounds I used to go play bingo with a friend of mine
the bingo hall was set up for both smokers and non smokers.

The smoking section was a huge walled in room (walled in with glass) and you still felt like you were part of the group. I know this b/c the friend smoked and I sat with her. It was nice b/c if you didn't want to, you didn't have to breathe smoke . . which coincidently does inflame my asthma.

I smoked from when I was ten to when I was 16. I have been on both sides of the fence. My standpoint is (not to be argumentative) that smoking causes health problems and not smoking does not. We as non smokers should have places where we can breath air free of tobacco smoke. You as smokers should have a place where you can smoke.

When towns pass smoking laws, establishments choose to go along with them. It seems extreme to me that they shut down your cigar shop. on the other hand it seems extreme to say that you should be able to smoke where ever you want reagardless of the health issues or wishes of those around you.

 

[SeaCat]

Okay, as hokey as it sounds I used to go play bingo with a friend of mine
the bingo hall was set up for both smokers and non smokers.

The smoking section was a huge walled in room (walled in with glass) and you still felt like you were part of the group. I know this b/c the friend smoked and I sat with her. It was nice b/c if you didn't want to, you didn't have to breathe smoke . . which coincidently does inflame my asthma.

I smoked from when I was ten to when I was 16. I have been on both sides of the fence. My standpoint is (not to be argumentative) that smoking causes health problems and not smoking does not. We as non smokers should have places where we can breath air free of tobacco smoke. You as smokers should have a place where you can smoke.

When towns pass smoking laws, establishments choose to go along with them. It seems extreme to me that they shut down your cigar shop. on the other hand it seems extreme to say that you should be able to smoke where ever you want reagardless of the health issues or wishes of those around you.

Dar,

I agree with you on much of this. Where my problem comes in is when the people decide that bussinesses are not even allowed to have smoking sections or rooms. In most areas the laws state that bussinesses must be non smoking, no smoking allowed at all. (Was that Bingo Hall closed down or made to change to non smoking? I'm pretty sure it was.)

Cat

 

[Guest]

But it's so much better than it was, you know?

I can remember working a summer job at a warehouse to pay for college (I'm hell on wheels driving a forklift, don't you know) and having no place to go for lunch that was non-smoking. It was miserable. Smoking and eating should be separate things.

But now the only time I notice smoking is at entrances of businesses where the displaced smokers attempt to get a quick puff on their breaks, or at live outdoor performances, and mostly at other outside events.

I don't begrudge anyone the need to puff. I just don't want to have to be inundated with the aroma since I no longer smoke. As long as I can breathe - I'm good.

But sometimes, I'd love to take a puff. I miss blowing smoke rings.

 

[Belegon]

I actually kind of like the way things are here...smoking being banned in general in bars and resturants is a good thing from my point of view. I don't want that flavor in my food. And I have been on both sides. I quit smoking in 1990 after having done it since I was twelve.


On the other hand, I think it is absolutely assinine to shut down a cigar shop because people smoke there. That is like shutting down a luggage shop because not everybody travels...

 

[Naturist]

I've got to admit that until very day, I never thought about cigarette smoke making its way straight up 15 feet and into my neighbor's apartment. Not that I plan on doing anything with that information other than getting a warm glow that I might be pissing off the folks upstairs. This evening, instead of merely smoking, I felt like I was also making a subtle statement that maybe it's a good time for them to move. (I mention this only because when they come home from the bars early in the morning, they have a tendency to pause by my door to really get their nightly argument going, thereby waking me up out of a sound sleep. Now you know why I'm still awake at this hour.)

Speaking of bars, I do have a problem when someone who's been doing shooters all night drives off in a huff because he can't stand the smoke.

As for restaurants, I have a tacit agreement with the other patrons: if they don't feed like pigs at the trough, I won't smoke.

 

[rgraham666]

I break up the smoking argument into three groups; smokers, non-smokers and anti-smokers.

The first two groups usually make some effort to come to a modus vivendi with one another.

The anti-smokers merely want the smokers to convert or die. It's a religious principle with them. If tobacco is eliminated from the world, life will be perfect and wonderful forever.

I also suspect that their opposition to smoking is based on the great North American fear, on our inability to face the one inevitable fact of our lives: that we're going to die. You can tell by their propoganda; poison, spreading sickness, illness, citing extreme cases as if it were the norm.

Well, we're all going to die and there isn't a goddamn thing the law, government or medicine can do about it. Get over it.

 

[amicus]

Sweetsubsarah....et al....


I find the moment I let a woman make friends with me she becomes jealous, exacting, suspicious and a damned nuisance. I find the moment I make friends with a woman, I become selfish and tyrannical. So here I am, a confirmed old bachelor, and likely to remain so. After all, Pickering . . .

I'm an ordinary man;
Who desires nothing more
Than just the ordinary chance
To live exactly as he likes
And do precisely what he wants.
An average man am I,
Of no eccentric whim;
Who likes to live his life
Free of strife,
Doing whatever he thinks is best for him.
Just an ordinary man.

But let a woman in your life
And your serenity is through!
She'll redecorate your home,
From the cellar to the dome;
Then go on to the enthralling
Fun of overhauling
You.

Oh, let a woman in your life
And you are up against the wall!
Make a plan and you will find
She has something else in mind;
And so rather than do either
You do something else that neither
Likes at all.

You want to talk of Keats or Milton;
She only wants to talk of love.
You go to see a play or ballet,
And spend it searching for her glove.

Oh, let a woman in your life
And you invite eternal strife!
Let them buy their wedding bands
For those anxious little hands;
I'd be equally as willing
For a dentist to be drilling
Than to ever let a woman in my life!

I'm a very gentle man;
Even-tempered and good-natured,
Whom you never hear complain;
Who has the milk of human kindness
By the quart in ev'ry vein.

A patient man am I
Down to my fingertips;
The sort who never could,
Ever would,
Let an insulting remark escape his lips.
Just a very gentle man.

But let a woman in your life
And patience hasn't got a chance.
She will beg you for advice;
Your reply will be concise.
And she'll listen very nicely
Then go out and do precisely
What she wants!

You were a man of grace and polish
Who never spoke above a hush.
Now all at once you're using language
That would make a sailor blush.

Oh, let a woman in your life
And you're plunging in a knife!
Let the others of my sex
Tie the knot - around their necks;
I'd prefer a new edition
Of the Spanish Inquisition
Than to ever let a woman in my life!

I'm a quiet living man
Who prefers to spend the evenings
In the silence of his room;
Who likes an atmosphere as restful
As an undiscovered tomb.
A pensive man am I
Of philosophic joys;
Who likes to meditate,
Contemplate,
Free from humanity's mad, inhuman noise.
Just a quiet living man.

But let a woman in your life
And your sabbatical is through!
In a line that never ends
Come an army of her friends;
Come to jabber and to chatter
And to tell her what the matter is with you.

She 'll have a booming, boist'rous fam'ly
Who will descend on you en masse.
She'll have a large Wagnerian mother
With a voice that shatters glass!

Oh, let a woman in your life. . .
Let a woman in your life . . .
Let a woman in your life . . .
I shall never let a woman in my life!


(Lyrics by lerner and Lowe, I think...)

Humor aside....If there is no health problem created by inhaling secondary tobacco smoke, then it becomes merely a personal, subjective matter of preference, does it not?

What the flawed EPA report did, was allow the heavy hand of government to once again regulate the private act of individuals.

Under that legislation, I well imagine that barbeque chips and coals, wood fires in fire places, burning leaves, et cetera, could all be 'legally' banned.

I have no objection to a private home owner forbidding smoking in 'their' private home, nor do I object to business owners doing the same, or a witch doctor forbidding one to smoke in his place of worship.

It is no far stretch to accuse the ladies with their more sensitive frailties as being germane to the banning of smoking in public places as far more men than women smoke or have ever smoked.

I still think the world has become far more 'pussified' since women got the vote and have begun to inflict their personal likes and dislikes upon the population at large.

I know, call that misogyny if you wish, but not so, I truly love the ladies as many and as often as I can.

regards...


amicus the lovable one...

 

[Guest]

[In the street - Higgins is hurrying home in a huff.]

HIGGINS

Damn! Damn! Damn! Damn!
I've grown accustomed to her face.
She almost makes the day begin.
I've grown accustomed to the tune that
She whistles night and noon.
Her smiles, her frowns,
Her ups, her downs
Are second nature to me now;
Like breathing out and breathing in.
I was serenely independent and content before we met;
Surely I could always be that way again-
And yet
I've grown accustomed to her look;
Accustomed to her voice;
Accustomed to her face.

[Spoken]
"Marry Freddy." What an infantile idea. What a heartless,
wicked, brainless thing to do. But she'll regret, she'll
regret it. It's doomed before they even take the vow!

[Sung]
I can see her now, Mrs. Freddy Eynsford-Hill
In a wretched little flat above a store.
I can see her now, not a penny in the till,
And a bill collector beating at the door.
She'll try to teach the things I taught her,
And end up selling flowers instead.
Begging for her bread and water,
While her husband has his breakfast in bed.
In a year, or so, when she's prematurely grey,
And the blossom in her cheek has turned to chalk.
She'll come home, and lo, he'll have upped and run away
With a social-climbing heiress from New York.
Poor Eliza. How simply frightful!
How humiliating! How delightful!
How poignant it'll be on that inevitable night
When she hammers on my door in tears and rags.
Miserable and lonely, repentant and contrite.
Will I take her in or hurl her to the walls?
Give her kindness or the treatment she deserves?
Will I take her back or throw the baggage out?

But I'm a most forgiving man;
The sort who never could, ever would,
Take a position and staunchly never budge.
A most forgiving man.
But, I shall never take her back,
If she were even crawling on her knees.
Let her promise to atone;
Let her shiver, let her moan;
I'll slam the door and let the hell-cat freeze!

[Spoken]
"Marry Freddy"- HA!

[Sung sadly]
But I'm so used to hear her say
"Good morning" ev'ry day.
Her joys, her woes,
Her highs, her lows,
Are second nature to me now;
Like breathing out and breathing in.
I'm very grateful she's a woman
And so easy to forget;
Rather like a habit
One can always break-
And yet,
I've grown accustomed to the trace
Of something in the air;
Accustomed to her face.



Have you learned nothing, ami?

(And Rex Harrison, sir, you are not.)

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

I randomly smoke beedies and cloves... But regular cigs smell like shit- and make my throat hurt...


I have no idea why people are so stupid to get addicted to those things.

Fucking morons... Act like they're fucking powerfull n shit, when they can't even quit.

It's spelled bidi's.

 

[amicus]

But, Liza Doolittle, Ma'am, you may well be?


I learn a little, here and there, thank you.

 

[Guest]

Ahhh, I've done that show. Played Eliza.

And I directed a production four years ago.

You forget the outcome of the show, do you not?

My favorite song - Without You

Eliza (singing):
What a fool I was, what dominated fool,
to think that you were the earth and the sky,
What a fool I was, What an elevated fool,
What a mutton-headed dote was I!
No, my reverberated friend,
you are not the beginning and the end.

. . . So go back in your shell
I can do bloody well
Without...

You forget she stands on her own two feet and leaves him. And only after he is left alone, broken and lonely, does she return.

And in the original stage version, we end the show with Eliza at-the-ready to toss his slippers at him.

Well done, Eliza.

(Eat me, amicus.)

But, Liza Doolittle, Ma'am, you may well be?

Of course not. And I never said that.

You were quoting Professor Higgins to demonstrate the wonderfulness of men.

I merely pointed out that in My Fair Lady, that attitude made Higgins miserable. But he changed, despite himself, and in the end was humbled because of his love for a woman.

(At least with Lerner and Loewe's version there was a happy ending for Higgins; Eliza returned. Shaw didn't do the same in the original Pygmalion, of course. He left Higgins to stew in his own self-important rancor, though he did attend Eliza and Freddy's wedding.)

 

[Guest]

Sweetsubsarah....et al....

Humor aside....If there is no health problem created by inhaling secondary tobacco smoke, then it becomes merely a personal, subjective matter of preference, does it not?

What the flawed EPA report did, was allow the heavy hand of government to once again regulate the private act of individuals.

Under that legislation, I well imagine that barbeque chips and coals, wood fires in fire places, burning leaves, et cetera, could all be 'legally' banned.

I have no objection to a private home owner forbidding smoking in 'their' private home, nor do I object to business owners doing the same, or a witch doctor forbidding one to smoke in his place of worship.

It is no far stretch to accuse the ladies with their more sensitive frailties as being germane to the banning of smoking in public places as far more men than women smoke or have ever smoked.

I still think the world has become far more 'pussified' since women got the vote and have begun to inflict their personal likes and dislikes upon the population at large.

I know, call that misogyny if you wish, but not so, I truly love the ladies as many and as often as I can.

regards...


amicus the lovable one...

Ah, an amendment to your post.

I have no comment; your view speaks loudly and clearly.

Well, except to quibble about the accuracy of the statement I highlighted in red. Your information is not accurate; therefore the rest of your argument is pointless.

 

[lil_elvis]

It's spelled bidi's.

Are you sure she didn't mean bidets?

 

[Kassiana]

Wow. I guess my being a non-smoker who doesn't want smoke forced on me when I go out makes me evil and an "anti-smoker." How dare I want to breathe! Damn me and all my kind!

Really, people. Did I say that all smoking should be banned and all smokers are evil people? Yet I have Rob attacking me for things I didn't say and other people making comments that I'd guess are also attacking me and giving me stances I didn't take (I have some people on ignore).

No. I said I don't like smokers forcing their smoke on me in bars and restaurants, and that there is no "right" to do so. I said that if businesses want to ban the smoke, it IS better for the health of the waitstaff (who usually have no choice...you either work and endanger your health to make money or you don't work and have no money). I didn't mention any other places. If you smoke in your home, fine. Like I said, turn your lungs into lumps of coal on your own time and I'm good with it.

If you're going to attack me, at least have the decency to attack me for what I actually say. As it is, I'm going to avoid those who deem my regard for my health as less important than their addictions in the future, and see no problem lying about me in the process.

 

[rgraham666]

I do beg your pardon Kass. And you are quite right, that I attacked what you didn't say.

However, you are talking about segregating people from a big portion of society. You are saying, "No, you can't come here. Your habit offends me and I think it's dangerous, so you're not allowed here."

If a restaurant is non-smoking, I won't patronise it or I won't smoke there. If it has a separate smoking section, that I will use. I will make a very concerted effort not to offend people.

But it's simply not enough. I'm being told I cannot be in public if I smoke, anywhere, at all.

It is segregation pure and simple to my mind. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if you were told for any reason that you can't be in public. Why should I?

 

[Guest]

Kass -

Well, that's a bit harsh, isn't it?

You ranted - so did everyone else.

You didn't like what some people had to say - some people didn't like what you had to say.

amicus and I traded our typical "he's a misogynistic pig/she's a flighty female" insults, and SeaCat got to brag about he and his wife having loud sex in their complex pool.

An interesting topic, broad and varying viewpoints, and sex as well.

I'd say - well done, Kass. Excellent thread.

 

[amicus]

sweetsubsarah....


Society controls many harmful substances that might cause problems in both breathing air and drinking water.

And if second hand tobacco smoke had been proven to be harmful, I certainly would understand and support such restriction and control.

However, it has not been scientifically proven to be harmful in any way, regardless of how much you wish it so.

Thus it does come down to a personal preference; you don't like the smell of tobacco or cigar smoke? I don't like old ladies perfume that smells like fermented monkey piss.

You may of course, as I stated before, impose your taste or lack of it, on those who visit your domain. But to impose your dislike on the general population by the force of law, is a little cheeky, even for you.

But then, you wanna ban guns too, I suppose?

amicus...( by the way, I did appreciate your posting of the lyrics from my Fair Lady and Pygmalion and I enjoyed the play and the film, however, I have always viewed it as 'chick flick' material, that usually ends up with a put down of the male species in one way or another by females, whom, I propose, have little other outlet for their venon.)

cha cha cha...

 

[Guest]

sweetsubsarah....

Society controls many harmful substances that might cause problems in both breathing air and drinking water.

And if second hand tobacco smoke had been proven to be harmful, I certainly would understand and support such restriction and control.

However, it has not been scientifically proven to be harmful in any way, regardless of how much you wish it so...

But here is where we differ.

You believe the article you found about the research results.

I do not. (Neither do many intellectuals). I believe it is slanted, and false, and harbors a complete misrepresentation of the facts.

There is no argument past that.

(Your description of misogynistic pig is a given, and doesn't warrant further discussion.)

 

[amicus]

Well, you continue to 'believe' what ever you wish, I know I cannot break through that faith.

But, if you are perchance open to reason and scientific research, not government propaganda...you might browse the following. It is a rather long piece and I copied only a few excerpts...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"...There is no statistically significant association' between secondhand smoke and lung cancer...."

http://www.smokingaloud.com/ets.html

There is no association between lung cancer and ETS exposure!

Every study used by the anti-smoking group on secondhand tobacco smoke has been proven to be flawed and the data manipulated. A comprehensive list of these studies is illustrated in the Environmental Protection Agency document EPA/600/6-90/006F, page 5-28 and 5-29.



The two largest U.S. epidemiologic studies of ETS and lung cancer are in agreement: There is no association between lung cancer and adult ETS exposure, a finding that contradicts the stated conclusions of each study. Further, the two largest U.S. epidemiologic studies are not consistent with U.S. EPA's conclusion that ETS is a lung carcinogen or with CAL-EPA's conclusion that post-1991 epidemiologic studies support a casual relationship between ETS and lung cancer.

In July, 1998, U.S. District Judge William Osteen in North Carolina, ruled the EPA based its 1993 report on inadequate science and failed to demonstrate a statistically significant relationship between secondhand smoke and lung cancer. Osteen wrote: "EPA publicly committed to a conclusion before research had begun; excluded industry by violating the (radon law's) procedural requirements; (and) adjusted established procedure and scientific norms to validate the agency's public conclusions." The judge further criticized the EPA for having "aggressively utilized" the report's findings "to establish a de facto regulatory scheme intended to restrict plaintiff's products and to influence public opinion." ("EPA stands behind link between secondhand smoke, cancer," CNN, July 19, 1998)

In one of the largest studies ever to look at the link between passive smoking - or environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) - and lung cancer, the World Health Organisations found that there was no statistical evidence that passive smoking caused lung cancer...."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now even if you were convinced that you have been in error, I do not expect you to acknowledge it. It is, however, my thought, that perhaps a few who read these posts might actually realize that the attack on tobacco companies and smokers is a political ploy of the Left and is not based on scientific evidence.

Puff, puff,

amicus...

 

[Guest]

Now even if you were convinced that you have been in error, I do not expect you to acknowledge it. It is, however, my thought, that perhaps a few who read these posts might actually realize that the attack on tobacco companies and smokers is a political ploy of the Left and is not based on scientific evidence.

Puff, puff,

amicus...

Puff away, ami. That doesn't matter to me, as I have friends who smoke.

But I must say, if you had proven your point to me, I certainly would have acknowledged it. I have done that on other threads before and I am sure I will do so again.

You, on the other hand, have never acknowledged your errors. To anyone. On any thread.

And I imagine, you never will.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I received two complaints this afternoon from the property manager where I currently live. The first dealt with the smell and offensiveness of my cigar smoke. (I only smoke in my courtyard.) It commented about how several of my neighbors had complained about the smell of my cigar and how it impaired thier enjoyment of their patios.

They have laws about that sort of thing in Boulder, CO. I don't believe you can barbecue if the smoke bothers a neighbor, either.

But now the only time I notice smoking is at entrances of businesses where the displaced smokers attempt to get a quick puff on their breaks, or at live outdoor performances, and mostly at other outside events.

San Francisco just made it illegal to smoke in public parks. I wonder if they'll be more diligent about enforcing the law on cigarettes than they are about the other evil weed.

 

[rgraham666]

San Francisco just made it illegal to smoke in public parks. I wonder if they'll be more diligent about enforcing the law on cigarettes than they are about the other evil weed.

Almost certainly. As I wrote in a letter to a newspaper on this subject, "Pot is a drug unfairly demonised by a puritanical culture. Where as tobacco actually is an evil weed. The number of deaths caused by it and the proven moral degradation of its users will give the police plenty of reasons to break heads."

I can see in fifty years that the new 'cool' illegal drug will be tobacco. One that 'intellectuals' and 'free thinkers' use. There will be a concerted effort to make it legal again.

And pot will be the everyday one. That the Puritans of all stripes will be trying to stamp out. They'll have stats and a well financed propaganda campaign to save us from ourselves.

And the wheel turns.

 

[erise]

"...There is no statistically significant association' between secondhand smoke and lung cancer...."

http://www.smokingaloud.com/ets.html

There is no association between lung cancer and ETS exposure!

<shrug> Possibly. But since when is cancer the only measurement of health risk? That's just plain dumb.

Passive smoking forced me to quit my coffee shop job. The smoke triggered my astmatic tendencies. Shortness of breath, fucked up vocal cords, red eyes, fatigue, and so on. Period.

It's not a case of personal taste. I love the smell of tobacco. But it still makes me, and many more like me, ill. Period.