Raises hand... What about prepositions?

[txblush]

I saw the topic on tenses and thank all of you've contributed to answering Brutal One's question.

Now, can someone please explain to me how to avoid ending a sentence in a preposition and possibly provide examples?

Thanks!

 

[SimonDoom]

My answer: don't sweat it.

The Chicago Manual of Style is probably the preeminent authority on style for fiction in the United States. And this is what, in section 5.180 of its 17th edition, it says on this subject:

The traditional caveat of yesteryear against ending sentences or clauses with prepositions is an unnecessary and pedantic restriction. And it is wrong. As Winston Churchill is said to have put it sarcastically, "That is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put."

 

[Voboy]

Just write.

If it flows well, it's good writing.

 

[SamScribble]

It seems likely that the prohibition on ending a sentence with a preposition can be put down to the personal taste of Robert Lowth. It was one of the 'rules' in his Short Introduction to English Grammar (1775). Like most grammar rules, it may be ignored - and often should be.

 

[txblush]

Whew! I was really sweating that one.

Thanks everyone!

 

[PennameWombat]

It seems likely that the prohibition on ending a sentence with a preposition can be put down to the personal taste of Robert Lowth. It was one of the 'rules' in his Short Introduction to English Grammar (1775). Like most grammar rules, it may be ignored - and often should be.

He, and others, felt that Latin was the "perfect" language and that English should be 'tamed' to be more like Latin, in which ending a sentence with a preposition is verboten. It was never prior to their intrusiveness an issue.

Take it up with Merriam-Webster

What to Know
Ending a sentence with a preposition (such as with, of, and to) is permissible in the English language. It seems that the idea that this should be avoided originated with writers Joshua Poole and John Dryden, who were trying to align the language with Latin, but there is no reason to suggest ending a sentence with a preposition is wrong. Nonetheless, the idea that it is a rule is still held by many.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Just in case anybody reading this isn't sure what we're talking about: prepositions are words like "to", "from", or "with".

"I came home from work. Then I went to the movies with Tom."

Old-school grammarians sometimes frown on ending a sentence with a preposition:

"That's where I came from."
"Where did you go to?"
"Who did you go with?"

If you're following those rules, you'd need to recast those sentences:

"That's the place from where I came."
"To where did you go?"
"With whom did you go?"

But as discussed above, it's a made-up rule (granted, all of language is made up, but this in particular) and very few people care about it. Trying to follow it religiously often ends up with very stilted phrasing. Unless you're writing a stuffy character who loves prescriptive grammar, or trying to appeal to a very posh readership, it's not something you need to adhere to.

 

[Bramblethorn]

He, and others, felt that Latin was the "perfect" language and that English should be 'tamed' to be more like Latin, in which ending a sentence with a preposition is verboten. It was never prior to their intrusiveness an issue.

Take it up with Merriam-Webster

Hence also the prohibition on splitting infinitives ("to boldly go").

 

[TheRedChamber]

Although it probably shouldn't be a hard and fast rule, it's worth pointing out that as a writer it's good to remember there are often (always?) more than one way of writing this kind of sentence and the alternative might sound better in certain circumstances.

"That's a subject which I've written on many times."
"That's a subject on which I've written many times."

The second might be more suitable if you character is a college professor for example.

"That's the place from where I came."

Great examples generally but would this be "from which I came" or, if going old-school "from whence"? This version, while following the pattern, doesn't quite seem right to me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Although it probably shouldn't be a hard and fast rule, it's worth pointing out that as a writer it's good to remember there are often (always?) more than one way of writing this kind of sentence and the alternative might sound better in certain circumstances.

"That's a subject which I've written on many times."
"That's a subject on which I've written many times."

The second might be more suitable if you character is a college professor for example.

Yep, always worth thinking about different ways to say things, and about which fits the characters best.

Great examples generally but would this be "from which I came" or, if going old-school "from whence"? This version, while following the pattern, doesn't quite seem right to me.

You may well be right there; I have less formal English learning than some of the other posters here so I do slip up on technicalities now and then.

 

[XerXesXu]

if going old-school "from whence"? This version, while following the pattern, doesn't quite seem right to me.

It's just "Whence?' Whence comest thou? Hie thee hence.

 

[Duleigh]

I saw the topic on tenses and thank all of you've contributed to answering Brutal One's question.

Now, can someone please explain to me how to avoid ending a sentence in a preposition and possibly provide examples?

Thanks!

It was a joke!
I was taught by the nuns to NEVER end a sentence with a preposition and that was decades ago. Even then the style of writing and speaking was "advancing." They were also trying to teach me Latin, which is long out of style also. I was trying to poke the old school of writing in the eye. I do try to avoid it only because I was taught (probably before you were born) that a well-crafted sentence will not end in a preposition. When you come to the end of sentence that's nailed down by a preposition, just try to rethink the entire sentence, sometimes a change to the subject will drop the preposition from the end of the predicate. (And if you understand that, you're probably as old as me)

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

It was a joke!
I was taught by the nuns to NEVER end a sentence with a preposition and that was decades ago. Even then the style of writing and speaking was "advancing." They were also trying to teach me Latin, which is long out of style also. I was trying to poke the old school of writing in the eye. I do try to avoid it only because I was taught (probably before you were born) that a well-crafted sentence will not end in a preposition. When you come to the end of sentence that's nailed down by a preposition, just try to rethink the entire sentence, sometimes a change to the subject will drop the preposition from the end of the predicate. (And if you understand that, you're probably as old as me)

I once had to teach a young copywriter how to diagram a sentence, because it was something she hadn’t learned in school. I felt so old.

 

[txblush]

Yes, Duleigh. I'm probably as old as you. I never did understand our priest's sermons spoken in Latin. I also went to public schools and was very good at the spelling bees in elementary school. I loved my English classes in high school, but hated writing essays.

I didn't discover my talent for writing erotic content until I was fresh out of high school. I sucked at grammar then, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know all the rules and teaching myself just made my head spin. Thankfully, I had someone here help me learn a few of them while I practice the craft of writing.

Thanks for posting your message Duleigh.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Also, why am I not surprised to see so many people who survived Catholic education on a smut site?

 

[MrPixel]

I once had to teach a young copywriter how to diagram a sentence, because it was something she hadn’t learned in school. I felt so old.

Diagramming sentences! Wow. 7th grade. For me that pretty much amounted to Intro to Computer Flowcharting 101.

As to my feelings about ending a sentence with a preposition, consult tagline. As far as ending a night out with a proposition, I'm all there.

 

[SimonDoom]

I once had to teach a young copywriter how to diagram a sentence, because it was something she hadn’t learned in school. I felt so old.

I learned diagramming in seventh and eighth grade from a teacher who was into it, and I'm forever grateful. I think it's an extremely useful exercise for understanding how the words in a sentence go together.

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

There's a passage from the song "Save the Last Dance for Me," by Doc Pomus and Mort Shuman, that always amuses me in this regard, because getting a word that rhymes took precedence over ending the phrase with a preposition: "Just remember who's taking you home, and in whose arms you're gonna be/So Darling, save the last dance for me." I've been known to sing it as "Just remember who's taking you home, and with a preposition this sentence won't end." Which ruins the rhyme scheme.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

The Chicago Manual of Style is probably the preeminent authority on style for fiction in the United States. And this is what, in section 5.180 of its 17th edition, it says on this subject:

The traditional caveat of yesteryear against ending sentences or clauses with prepositions is an unnecessary and pedantic restriction. And it is wrong. As Winston Churchill is said to have put it sarcastically, "That is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put."

Thus Edition 17. I wonder what earlier editions had to say.

 

[sirhugs]

I thought the plot bunnies just ate all the prepositions.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Thus Edition 17. I wonder what earlier editions had to say.

The first edition is available online. It doesn't appear to have said anything at all on the question: https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/help-tools/facsimile-of-the-1st-edition.html

 

[windar]

I can't accept your proposition; I'm already married. Oh wait, never mind...

 

[Zeb_Carter]

And if anything that you write is within quotes, don't worry about grammar. That might just be how your character talks. And no one, except maybe English professors, talk perfect grammar.

 

[MrPixel]

And if anything that you write is within quotes, don't worry about grammar. That might just be how your character talks. And no one, except maybe English professors, talk perfect grammar.

Just yesterday we were picking-up supplies at a big-box DIY store, and stopped at the guard shack out of the yard area for a load inspection. Attendant asked "Can I open the back?" Of course, this received the obligatory English teacher response, "I am certain you are capable, but you also may open the back." This elicited the expected eye-roll and a chuckle.

 

[SimonDoom]

Benjamin Dreyer, Random House's copy chief, and therefore one of the more qualified authorities on a question like this, if there is such a thing, has an interesting comment on this in his book Dreyer's English (which I highly recommend for grammar nerds). He says that while there's no hard and fast rule AGAINST ending a sentence with a proposition, it is sometimes not a good idea, because a preposition is a weak word with which to end a sentence (note I did NOT write "a preposition is a weak word to end a sentence with" because I think the sentence is punchier if ended with "sentence" than with "with").

An example he gives:

"What did you do that for?

is passable, but

Why did you do that?

has some snap to it."

If you have an ear for words, I think you can tell he's right about that.