Race play

[00Syd]

Umm... are you saying you have no conflict with nazi play then, 100% comfortable with it?

I have never engaged in it, so I can't say with 100% certainty that I am comfortable with it, but the idea of engaging in it doesn't seem to be bothering me at the moment. And I'm certainly comfortable with other people engaging in it.

I didn’t mean others opinions on it, I meant yours. Potential cognitive dissidence, such as maybe, it's hot but theirs a lot of blood on it, and how you may justify the turn on to yourself. Not applicable?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let other people's hang-ups over history interfere with what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom. And does the fact that it turns me on give me the justification to mess with it? I don't need to justify it to you, to myself, or anyone else. What I do in bed with other consenting adults doesn't affect you or anyone else in any way, so if you don't like it, tough. You don't have to like it because frankly, you're not involved.

Did I stutter?

I don't need to justify it. There's "a lot of blood" on the history of woman's subjugation to men, but I still manage to engage in play where I submit to men without feeling guilty. I manage to engage in rape play without feeling like I'm cheapening the experiences of rape-survivors. I don't see why this should be so different.

 

[BiBunny]

You know, this isn't my thing, either, but I don't think folks ought to have to apologize for what gets them off.

 

[00Syd]

You know, this isn't my thing, either, but I don't think folks ought to have to apologize for what gets them off.

Thank you. I can't believe this even needs to be said

 

[Stella_Omega]

Umm... are you saying you have no conflict with nazi play then, 100% comfortable with it?

I didn’t mean others opinions on it, I meant yours. Potential cognitive dissidence, such as maybe, it's hot but theirs a lot of blood on it, and how you may justify the turn on to yourself. Not applicable?

See, here's Syd saying "no problem" and here's me saying yeah, I do have a problem with other people playing nazi.

I have a problem with other things that Syd loves too, though. My limits are different than hers, that's all.

And just because I am uncomfortable with degradation etc, does not mean I think Syd should never allow herself to enjoy those kinks ever again, it just means I don't much want to witness them.

Do I think less of Syd because of her kinks? No, she's right upfront about them, they are just part of the Syd equation. Would I think less of some Republican Public Puritan if I found out he was indulging his kinks in private? Well, that would depend on what his public stance was on sexuality. I detest hypocrisy even more than I dislike Nazi play.

 

[00Syd]

See, here's Syd saying "no problem" and here's me saying yeah, I do have a problem with other people playing nazi.

I have a problem with other things that Syd loves too, though. My limits are different than hers, that's all.

And just because I am uncomfortable with degradation etc, does not mean I think Syd should never allow herself to enjoy those kinks ever again, it just means I don't much want to witness them.

Do I think less of Syd because of her kinks? No, she's right upfront about them, they are just part of the Syd equation. Would I think less of some Republican Public Puritan if I found out he was indulging his kinks in private? Well, that would depend on what his public stance was on sexuality. I detest hypocrisy even more than I dislike Nazi play.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Is the fact that it turns you on justification enough to mess with something like this? Don't you think this is something bigger than you that maybe you should let be?

I'm not trying to say anything about you, just wondering how this weighs in?

Hell, political philosophies are "bigger than me" but the idea of my politically conservative play partner raping me while talking about how great Sarah Palin is gives me a metaphorical boner. That might make people uncomfortable, too, but tough titties. Nobodies comfort level gets to dictate my sex life, except for mine and my partner's.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let other people's hang-ups over history interfere with what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom. And does the fact that it turns me on give me the justification to mess with it? I don't need to justify it to you, to myself, or anyone else. What I do in bed with other consenting adults doesn't affect you or anyone else in any way, so if you don't like it, tough. You don't have to like it because frankly, you're not involved.

Umm... are you saying you have no conflict with nazi play then, 100% comfortable with it?

I didn’t mean others opinions on it, I meant yours. Potential cognitive dissidence, such as maybe, it's hot but theirs a lot of blood on it, and how you may justify the turn on to yourself. Not applicable?

Did I stutter?

I don't need to justify it. There's "a lot of blood" on the history of woman's subjugation to men, but I still manage to engage in play where I submit to men without feeling guilty. I manage to engage in rape play without feeling like I'm cheapening the experiences of rape-survivors. I don't see why this should be so different.

You know, this isn't my thing, either, but I don't think folks ought to have to apologize for what gets them off.

Thank you. I can't believe this even needs to be said

to Bunny and Syd.

Seriously, and when someone points out that 'your kink is not my kink and that's ok' as a general consensus is a crock of shit, people scratch their heads and get up all offended and go OTT with their fawning 'acceptance' just so they can be the morally superior ones.

Is it any bloody wonder when people expect others to justify legitimate, non-illegal, kinks time and again?

FFS.

/end carryon

 

[JMohegan]

Umm... are you saying you have no conflict with nazi play then, 100% comfortable with it?

I didn’t mean others opinions on it, I meant yours. Potential cognitive dissidence, such as maybe, it's hot but theirs a lot of blood on it, and how you may justify the turn on to yourself. Not applicable?

Every top whom I know & respect has asked him/herself these types of questions. Asked, and reached some sort of calm, non-defensive resolution and acceptance of his/her own personal response. Not about Nazi play specifically, but about whatever sadistic and/or controlling shit gets them off.

I don't think I'd trust a top who hasn't.

 

[JMohegan]

to Bunny and Syd.

Seriously, and when someone points out that 'your kink is not my kink and that's ok' as a general consensus is a crock of shit, people scratch their heads and get up all offended and go OTT with their fawning 'acceptance' just so they can be the morally superior ones.

Is it any bloody wonder when people expect others to justify legitimate, non-illegal, kinks time and again?

FFS.

/end carryon

What does "legitimate" mean, in this context? Or rather, what would an "illegitimate" kink be, in your view?

 

[intothewoods]

What does "legitimate" mean, in this context? Or rather, what would an "illegitimate" kink be, in your view?

Exactly, that's really the question.

This conversation keeps reminding me of the book The Other Side of Desire. It's mostly just profiles of a few different people - a dominatrix, a foot fetishist, an amputee fetishist and his amputee wife and a guy who was brought up on charges of molesting his young teenage stepdaughter. I can't remember her exact age right now, but she was very young. Anyway, the point was not to lump all of these people together or anything. But the author does interview some scientists who study desire and test people when they look at different pictures to measure response. No one really knows why a person's brain seizes upon something as the thing that gets the person off. It's freaky how similarly our brains all work in this respect, no matter who you are.

 

[YourCaptor]

Ok, what the hell is this. I don’t think you ladies are accurately receiving the point I was trying to make. I can only think that theirs a major communication fail here. I certainly wasn’t leading anywhere that revolves around an apology of any sort. At most maybe Syd declining the questions due to it being too person.

 

[YourCaptor]

Exactly, that's really the question.

This conversation keeps reminding me of the book The Other Side of Desire. It's mostly just profiles of a few different people - a dominatrix, a foot fetishist, an amputee fetishist and his amputee wife and a guy who was brought up on charges of molesting his young teenage stepdaughter. I can't remember her exact age right now, but she was very young. Anyway, the point was not to lump all of these people together or anything. But the author does interview some scientists who study desire and test people when they look at different pictures to measure response. No one really knows why a person's brain seizes upon something as the thing that gets the person off. It's freaky how similarly our brains all work in this respect, no matter who you are.

I had a professor who did that kind of work. She studied love via fMRI.

My primary professor you could argue also studied this stuff in a way. He's an expert on dopamine, and has done a tones of research with cocaine. Cocaine activates the same regions of the brain as a love response, so their you go.

 

[midwestyankee]

Ok, what the hell is this. I don’t think you ladies are accurately receiving the point I was trying to make. I can only think that theirs a major communication fail here. I certainly wasn’t leading anywhere that revolves around an apology of any sort. At most maybe Syd declining the questions due to it being too person.

If we're not understanding your point, whose fault is that?

Honestly, YC, as I've read this thread I've wondered all along why you seem so intent on foisting your beliefs and preferences on the rest of us. Are you auditioning for the Tea Party?

 

[intothewoods]

I had a professor who did that kind of work. She studied love via fMRI.

My primary professor you could argue also studied this stuff in a way. He's an expert on dopamine, and has done a tones of research with cocaine. Cocaine activates the same regions of the brain as a love response, so their you go.

Honestly, YC, I couldn't really make out what your ultimate point was in a few of your posts. Anyhoo.

I think this kind of work is fascinating stuff, and I would have loved it if the book had more science in it. If anyone has any recommendations for similar stuff, please let me know. Oh, and yes, I've heard that about drugs/love on the brain.

 

[JMohegan]

For the record, I've been reading YC as asking whether those who are into race play experience any internal struggles, doubts, or personal ethical conflict about what they are doing.

Phoenix linked to a thread demonstrating that he struggled with the issue, himself, before engaging in race play. So for him, the answer is yes. He did experience doubts, and subsequently resolved them.

As a sadist and a control freak, I consider that process of self-examination to be quite healthy.

 

[JMohegan]

Exactly, that's really the question.

This conversation keeps reminding me of the book The Other Side of Desire. It's mostly just profiles of a few different people - a dominatrix, a foot fetishist, an amputee fetishist and his amputee wife and a guy who was brought up on charges of molesting his young teenage stepdaughter. I can't remember her exact age right now, but she was very young. Anyway, the point was not to lump all of these people together or anything. But the author does interview some scientists who study desire and test people when they look at different pictures to measure response. No one really knows why a person's brain seizes upon something as the thing that gets the person off. It's freaky how similarly our brains all work in this respect, no matter who you are.

It seems clear to me that people can't control what arouses/does not arouse them. The impulse occurs whether you want it to or not. So the impulse itself, no matter what it is, bears no fault or blame.

Whether it's okay to act on those impulses is a different story. Everyone has a line between consensual sexual behavior they consider to be legitimate, and consensual sexual behavior they consider to be morally wrong. They just draw the line in different places.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ok, what the hell is this. I don’t think you ladies are accurately receiving the point I was trying to make. I can only think that theirs a major communication fail here. I certainly wasn’t leading anywhere that revolves around an apology of any sort. At most maybe Syd declining the questions due to it being too person.

I don't see where she declined any question. I'm thinking that whatever question you were trying to ask didn't quite make sense.

I think, like JM, that you were asking about internal struggles. It's interesting to me that you dismissed the nazi fetishist's essay in the way that you did, in a way that implied, to me, that you do not approve of nazi play. So you reject other people's acceptance of their kinks if you don't like that kink? That isn't very honest.

 

[intothewoods]

Fwiw, I should have said I didn't understand YC's response to me in a previous post, but I've been low on mental energy lately so it's possible it's my fault. Anyhoo, doesn't matter.

It seems clear to me that people can't control what arouses/does not arouse them. The impulse occurs whether you want it to or not. So the impulse itself, no matter what it is, bears no fault or blame.

Whether it's okay to act on those impulses is a different story. Everyone has a line between consensual sexual behavior they consider to be legitimate, and consensual sexual behavior they consider to be morally wrong. They just draw the line in different places.

Yes, and that was the crux of the chapter on the pedophile in this book. I don't have the book handy, but I believe the researchers found that most men do respond physically to pictures of clearly underage teens (not kids, but not young adults), despite the fact that a good percentage will deny it. I don't know, I guess it just seems like if you scratch the surface, we're all sort of repressed raging pervs. It's a bit disturbing to me at some level.

 

[Keroin]

Yes, and that was the crux of the chapter on the pedophile in this book. I don't have the book handy, but I believe the researchers found that most men do respond physically to pictures of clearly underage teens (not kids, but not young adults), despite the fact that a good percentage will deny it. I don't know, I guess it just seems like if you scratch the surface, we're all sort of repressed raging pervs. It's a bit disturbing to me at some level.

It is sometimes hard to tell the age of young girls these days. You say the girls were 'clearly underage' - as in 16? 17? 18? In the study, did they control for things like wardrobe and make up? Just curious.

Hey, I've been turned on by things that are both personally and socially "taboo" and I've had no trouble not acting on those feelings, (well, unless BDSM falls under that umbrella, then...yeah...hee). I've long assumed that we all harbour some nasty desires, just human nature. The people who worry me are the ones who simply cannot control their desires. That's disturbing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've noticed 10 year old boys.

I think it would be really easy to suppress that knowledge if I were in the least inclined towards self-suppression, but I am not afraid of myself, yanno? I can censor my own actions.

 

[Keroin]

I was also going to add that, if I'm not mistaken, I think YC is German. Well, I believe he's American but of German ancestry, blah, blah, blah, which could explain why he is particularly sensitive to the Nazi thing.

My German friends have told me that, as a culture, Germans still have a very difficult time with what happened, even those who weren't even born during the war. So, I get it. I can see why it would spark such a reaction.

I'm trying to think of some type of play that would provoke the same reaction in me, but that would involve animals and would be illegal anyway. Hm.

 

[intothewoods]

It is sometimes hard to tell the age of young girls these days. You say the girls were 'clearly underage' - as in 16? 17? 18? In the study, did they control for things like wardrobe and make up? Just curious.

Hey, I've been turned on by things that are both personally and socially "taboo" and I've had no trouble not acting on those feelings, (well, unless BDSM falls under that umbrella, then...yeah...hee). I've long assumed that we all harbour some nasty desires, just human nature. The people who worry me are the ones who simply cannot control their desires. That's disturbing.

I read this book about six months ago, so I'll have to go back and check. I remember being kinda icked out by it, and I don't think I would have felt that way had it been all 17 year olds dressed up like street walkers or something. I promise to go check though, because it's bugging me trying to remember! On your point though, I remember Bill Maher making a point on his old show once where he showed an advertisement that was for junior's clothing or something, and the model was posed in a totally sexual way. And he was basically saying, ok, so we're not supposed to look at teens in a sexual way but then people print this shit? WTF?

I guess there are these categories of things that I look at and thing, ugh, what sick fuck is turned on by that? I realize that some people would look at what I'm turned on by and think the same thing, but this is just my honest gut-level reaction to some extreme shit. You know, the usual illegal stuff. And it seems sort of obvious to me when I write it, but it was really striking to me to read the book and realize how similar we all are.

Anyway, I will flip through the book tonight and post back here. It's a quick read if anyone's interested. Somewhat unsatisfyingly so! Still, some interesting shit in there.

 

[DVS]

Thank you. I can't believe this even needs to be said

It doesn't need to be said. Consenting adults, in the privacy of their own bedroom, kitchen, or where ever.

Political correctness should stay out of our sex lives. Just because we act out scenes, it doesn't mean we believe it. We all have our kinks. Let it go.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It does need to be said, though. We all of us need to be reminded once in a while.

And-- political correctedness is going to stay in my sex life for a while longer. I have a fetish for it.

 

[DVS]

I was also going to add that, if I'm not mistaken, I think YC is German. Well, I believe he's American but of German ancestry, blah, blah, blah, which could explain why he is particularly sensitive to the Nazi thing.

My German friends have told me that, as a culture, Germans still have a very difficult time with what happened, even those who weren't even born during the war. So, I get it. I can see why it would spark such a reaction.

I'm trying to think of some type of play that would provoke the same reaction in me, but that would involve animals and would be illegal anyway. Hm.

I understand this, but I also understand that people will be people. You can't go around with a chip on your shoulder, constantly confronting everybody that opposes your views.

This is not the same thing, but my sister was born with Downs Syndrome. She's physically 55 years old, and mentally somewhere around 4 or 5. This won't ever change. I don't like it when people talk about retards when they see someone with Downs. I don't like it when they refer to them as "downys" or is it "downies", but that's their problem, not mine. If I were to confront them with the issue, would it make anything better, or would it just make it worse? I can live with their insensitive words. But, I would confront someone calling someone a retard to their face. That's when it goes too far.

I also know the Nazis would gas people like my sister, because they were considered weak. But I don't blame present day Germans for something that happened a long time ago. I know Germans live with their share of demons. Personally, I'd be more concerned if they didn't. It shows me they have learned from history. Can we all say that?

 

[DVS]

It does need to be said, though. We all of us need to be reminded once in a while.

And-- political correctedness is going to stay in my sex life for a while longer. I have a fetish for it.

And I thought I was kinky!