Race play

[intothewoods]

I know right. Totally on the same page.



Yes sex can be a powerful desire, but race play is still a choice.

That’s the issue with it I think, because race play is a choice, does that make it wrong? By doing it, you are choosing to indulge in racism. Then follows, why does racism get you pleasure? And does the answer to that question make playing with it a problem?

If yes, and the person in question has some important role in the community, I think they should refrain.

Well, ok, but then is engaging in rape play engaging in rape? Is M/f D/s engaging in sexism?

I disagree. I think my discomfort with an *already-powerful* white PYL/black pyl would trump what sex they are respectively.

I get that.

And that would be me, one of your feminist friends. And it isn't that I'm weirded out by M-Dom/f-sub individually, I'm weirded out by the way so many people here talk with it as the default.

The power role reversal does make me feel more comfortable. Someone in power who wants to give up that power for a while? That makes sense to me. Someone in power who has to remain in power at home as well? I'm worrying about their emotional stability. There's no balance.

Well, I'm a feminist, first of all. And none of my vanilla friends are on lit! I find it weird that it's the default here too - my scene friends are not primarily straight M/f types.

I was initially not comfortable with it either. But as to your point, how much real power do any of us have?

 

[ecstaticsub]

Race play can just be a overall tone without being the main focus of the scene/session/relationship. In some ways the it remaining unspoken makes it hotter and perhaps more acceptable.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Is it ok?

What’s your opinion, and what‘s your limit?

And before anyone says whatever floats your boat, what if your public official got exposed as doing it? Or your kids teachers, is it really ok for anyone?

What’s too far, costumes, personal history, certain words and tools?



Just in case, in this discussion

Race = a conceptual classification of humans

the only thing about race play that bothers me is the "play" bit. just come out and be real about what it is, own it, and make no apologies. racism and prejudice are alive and well at every level of society, and on some level we have all been effected. refusing to acknowledge that is a bit childish imo, not to mention irritating.

so when someone decides, at least in their private life, to openly acknowledge the underlying tensions and historical baggage involved in their interracial relationship, i have some respect for that. i just wish they would come up with a better name than "race play."

 

[JMohegan]

Well, ok, but then is engaging in rape play engaging in rape? Is M/f D/s engaging in sexism?

Rape is defined by the absence of consent. So by definition, if rape "play" is consensual, no.

Sexism is the belief that people of a certain gender in general are somehow lesser, or should be generally held in an inferior position in society. Two people mutually deciding that one will be in charge (because of the relative fit of personalities, rather than gender roles assumed as a matter of course) doesn't fit that definition, as I see it.

If the point of the Jew/Nazi guard scene is the trapped helplessness of the victim, and the scene is just part of a repertoire of role playing acted out (employer/illegal immigrant, old south master/slave, lender/debtor, whatever), then that's just another form of consensual rape play, with a script of sorts. But getting off on the subjugation and/or torture of Jews, specifically because of that Jewishness, sure seems like a form of bigotry to me.

 

[ucleebo]

Whatever two (or more) people do consensually, in private, is none of my damn business.

 

[intothewoods]

Rape is defined by the absence of consent. So by definition, if rape "play" is consensual, no.

Sexism is the belief that people of a certain gender in general are somehow lesser, or should be generally held in an inferior position in society. Two people mutually deciding that one will be in charge (because of the relative fit of personalities, rather than gender roles assumed as a matter of course) doesn't fit that definition, as I see it.

If the point of the Jew/Nazi guard scene is the trapped helplessness of the victim, and the scene is just part of a repertoire of role playing acted out (employer/illegal immigrant, old south master/slave, lender/debtor, whatever), then that's just another form of consensual rape play, with a script of sorts. But getting off on the subjugation and/or torture of Jews, specifically because of that Jewishness, sure seems like a form of bigotry to me.

I'm not trying to be difficult btw. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this.

When I hear race play, I think of the racial aspect as sort of dressing for rape play, interrogation play, etc. Or maybe someone who gets off on racist dirty talk. But mostly I think about elaborate scenes I've seen at events that are mostly for show. I do assume that it's consensual and negotiated, similar to rape play. And by that I mean that the bottom is getting off on it too. In the abstract, I guess I have to say that the devil is in the details. If I discovered that, say, John McCain got off on scenes where he's the PYL, I would want to know the context. He's kind of a good example. If it came out that he gets off on playing prison guard head captain of torture with Vietnamese women, I would have some sympathy for the guy.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not trying to be difficult btw. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this.

When I hear race play, I think of the racial aspect as sort of dressing for rape play, interrogation play, etc. Or maybe someone who gets off on racist dirty talk. But mostly I think about elaborate scenes I've seen at events that are mostly for show. I do assume that it's consensual and negotiated, similar to rape play. And by that I mean that the bottom is getting off on it too. In the abstract, I guess I have to say that the devil is in the details. If I discovered that, say, John McCain got off on scenes where he's the PYL, I would want to know the context. He's kind of a good example. If it came out that he gets off on playing prison guard head captain of torture with Vietnamese women, I would have some sympathy for the guy.

I'm not trying to be difficult, either. I'm trying to understand how someone could possibly find the race aspect hot, unless that person was inherently racist in a very significant way.

McCain, as you hypothesize, would be a good example of someone using his sexuality to work through major psychological issues. Not racism per se, but more like sexual therapy of sorts.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not trying to be difficult, either. I'm trying to understand how someone could possibly find the race aspect hot, unless that person was inherently racist in a very significant way.

McCain, as you hypothesize, would be a good example of someone using his sexuality to work through major psychological issues. Not racism per se, but more like sexual therapy of sorts.

I don't find it hot either, but I feel like you could be into this and not be racist.

I sort of assume most people who are into race play are just playing out some version of something they've dealt with in their life or deal with on a daily basis. I kind of think D/s is the same for me -- parts of my life all twisted up and reimagined. Lol, I guess I think at some level that we're all working through our psychological issues in the bedroom.

 

[BiBunny]

This thread is starting to sound like the age play threads. "Is age play the same as pedophilia?"

My answer here is the same as my answer would be there. I think someone who is genuinely a racist (or a pedophile) would probably not be satisfied by playing with someone who is a.) consenting to it, and b.) getting off on it.

And there's definitely a contingent of people who get off on things just because they're considered taboo. I talk to them every day.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This thread is starting to sound like the age play threads. "Is age play the same as pedophilia?"

My answer here is the same as my answer would be there. I think someone who is genuinely a racist (or a pedophile) would probably not be satisfied by playing with someone who is a.) consenting to it, and b.) getting off on it.

And there's definitely a contingent of people who get off on things just because they're considered taboo. I talk to them every day.

Those are very good points, BB

It's something that just doesn't occur to me. If I get off on something its whether or not it's taboo-- not because it is.

 

[rosco rathbone]

And there's definitely a contingent of people who get off on things just because they're considered taboo. I talk to them every day.

I'd have to say I'm one of those people.

 

[JMohegan]

This thread is starting to sound like the age play threads. "Is age play the same as pedophilia?"

My answer here is the same as my answer would be there. I think someone who is genuinely a racist (or a pedophile) would probably not be satisfied by playing with someone who is a.) consenting to it, and b.) getting off on it.

And there's definitely a contingent of people who get off on things just because they're considered taboo. I talk to them every day.

Okay, now I'm confused as to what race play means, as you would define it.

Pedophile wants to fuck actual children. Age play fan does not want to fuck actual children. Right?

So....

Race play fan wants to dominate, torture, or just fuck --- whom, would you say? An actual person of a different race, or someone pretending to be a person of a different race? Or either, it doesn't matter, as long as there's a racial script of some sort?

 

[BiBunny]

I'd have to say I'm one of those people.

It's more common than people realize, that's for sure. It's definitely where MY bread is buttered.

Okay, now I'm confused as to what race play means, as you would define it.

Pedophile wants to fuck actual children. Age play fan does not want to fuck actual children. Right?

So....

Race play fan wants to dominate, torture, or just fuck --- whom, would you say? An actual person of a different race, or someone pretending to be a person of a different race? Or either, it doesn't matter, as long as there's a racial script of some sort?

Ok, I can see where that would be confusing. I apologize for muddying the waters. I wasn't actually making a one to one comparison between the two things. I meant that a person who's actually racist would most likely not get off on consensual play with someone who's enjoying what's going on, much like a person who's actually a pedophile would most likely not get off on consensual play with an adult.

Eh, it made sense in my head.

 

[WriterDom]

This thread is starting to sound like the age play threads. "Is age play the same as pedophilia?"

My answer here is the same as my answer would be there. I think someone who is genuinely a racist (or a pedophile) would probably not be satisfied by playing with someone who is a.) consenting to it, and b.) getting off on it.

It all depends on what she got off on. I can see a racist working a black slave from sun up to sun down outside and later using her sexually and perhaps beating her.

Sounds cruel and politically incorrect but if they were both into "Plantation" play who is to say it is wrong?

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm not a racist, but if you could legally own humans I'd be sorely tempted.

 

[intothewoods]

I'd have to say I'm one of those people.

No way, not buying it. Sorry!

It's more common than people realize, that's for sure. It's definitely where MY bread is buttered.



Ok, I can see where that would be confusing. I apologize for muddying the waters. I wasn't actually making a one to one comparison between the two things. I meant that a person who's actually racist would most likely not get off on consensual play with someone who's enjoying what's going on, much like a person who's actually a pedophile would most likely not get off on consensual play with an adult.

Eh, it made sense in my head.

It made sense to me too, but I think it's because I'm mostly envisioning rape or interrogation play scenarios with a racial component. I guess the equivalent is that an actual racist believes that a particular race is x, y and z and another race is a, b and c, and a rape play afficionado is playing with this shit in the scene. He doesn't actually discriminate against people of color. He doesn't actually think white people are superior.

 

[BiBunny]

It all depends on what she got off on. I can see a racist working a black slave from sun up to sun down outside and later using her sexually and perhaps beating her.

Sounds cruel and politically incorrect but if they were both into "Plantation" play who is to say it is wrong?

Oh, no, I don't think it's wrong if that's what floats both their boats. I was just thinking that that was not the most probable arrangement.

No way, not buying it. Sorry!



It made sense to me too, but I think it's because I'm mostly envisioning rape or interrogation play scenarios with a racial component. I guess the equivalent is that an actual racist believes that a particular race is x, y and z and another race is a, b and c, and a rape play afficionado is playing with this shit in the scene. He doesn't actually discriminate against people of color. He doesn't actually think white people are superior.

Yep, that's exactly how I see it. It could be because I'm viewing this through a "professional" lens, though. In my head, it's all acting.

 

[AmberMoore]

I'm Hispanic, Mexican actually, and pretty service minded when it comes to my submission so I've kind fallen into a domestic role with a couple women and I have to admit that it actually has made one of my girl friends kind of uncomfortable. Her neighbors thought that I was her maid, her sister even thought that I was her maid the first time we met. It was kind of a funny sitcom moment but it made her uncomfortable to the point that she eventually asked me to stop cleaning and cooking for her.

I'd be very uncomfortable if the only reason that someone was with me was because they got off on the Latina Maid thing even though I do enjoy playing the maid. If it was just racial then I couldn't do it, it would just ick me out.

 

[JMohegan]

It all depends on what she got off on. I can see a racist working a black slave from sun up to sun down outside and later using her sexually and perhaps beating her.

Sounds cruel and politically incorrect but if they were both into "Plantation" play who is to say it is wrong?

If the Top is an actual racist, then he's a prick, by definition. And that "black slave" needs professional help.

Sounds un-pc in Whatevergoes Kinkland, I know. But that's my honest response.

 

[JMohegan]

Ok, I can see where that would be confusing. I apologize for muddying the waters. I wasn't actually making a one to one comparison between the two things. I meant that a person who's actually racist would most likely not get off on consensual play with someone who's enjoying what's going on, much like a person who's actually a pedophile would most likely not get off on consensual play with an adult.

Eh, it made sense in my head.

No need to apologize; thanks for the clarification. Now I see what you meant, and it makes sense.

 

[DVS]

I'm the resident racist here. But I don't think I'm going to get involved. The only race I enjoy these days is fast cars.

 

[intothewoods]

http://gawker.com/5638087/why-is-th...ederate-dress+up-with-slaves?skyline=true&s=i

This thread made me wonder...what's the after party like?

 

[rosco rathbone]

http://gawker.com/5638087/why-is-th...ederate-dress+up-with-slaves?skyline=true&s=i

This thread made me wonder...what's the after party like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6y_4_b6RS8&feature=related

 

[00Syd]

For those of you with a fetlife account, here's a cognizant piece of writing done by a queer, transgendered, male, Nazi fetishist explaining how he is not, in fact, a Nazi. For those of you who find it confusing how some might want to play with racial (or Nazi) themes without actually being racist (or antisemitic) themselves, this might be a useful thing to read.

A Nazi Fetishist's Manifesto

 

[00Syd]

And honestly, fear turns me on, and I think that a nazi torture/interrogation scene might possibly one of the most terrifying scenes that I can think of. If I was able to get into the right mindset, I think I could/would be pretty genuinly horrified and scared, and that would be hot.

So, I dunno. It's on the table.