Questions for male pyls and those who know some of them...

[SweetErika]

I am not trying to be exclusionary, and everyone's more than welcome to chime in on this thread, but I have a question for male pyls and anyone who has experience with them. I also have no desire to offend anyone or start a fight; I'm genuinely curious about experiences and opinions, and am really trying to put this in a neutral way because I know it's a potentially touchy subject.

Several of the male subs I've come to know have expressed thoughts like:

• I've been subjected to discriminatory behavior at BDSM events because I'm a male submissive.
• Our society is anti-male and pro-female in some/many ways.
• I don't like the rules at [community playspace/club] because they indicate a bias against men.
• I don't accept anyone's authority, except my Domme's, of course.
• I hate [insert famous women we typically think of as strong and pro-equal rights] and the way they use their fame/power to influence women.
• My female boss (or whoever) is against me because I'm a white male.

If you're a male pyl, do you have similar beliefs (i.e. do you see yourself as a victim of gender bias/discrimination somewhat)? And/or have you often felt discriminated against because you're a man and/or a pyl?

If you have experience with male pyls, have you run into similar attitudes, maybe enough times that you feel there could be a pattern? What have your experiences been like?

I guess I'm trying to figure out if there might be some kind of a pattern/commonality here, or if my encounters with this type of mindset in male subs are just pure coincidence. Or, if perhaps male pyls are more likely to have these types of beliefs - are they something the male pyl psyche in general is attracted to, or are men with this mindset more likely to have submissive tendencies? If so, I'd love to hear theories on why that might be the case.

Of course I'm not asserting there's anything wrong with the above beliefs or male pyls, and I certainly don't think this is applicable to all, or even most.

I hope that makes sense, comes off as I intend it, and thank you in advance for your thoughts.

 

[s_red830]

male pyls

Several of the male subs I've come to know have expressed thoughts like:

• I've been subjected to discriminatory behavior at BDSM events because I'm a male submissive.
• Our society is anti-male and pro-female in some/many ways.
• I don't like the rules at [community playspace/club] because they indicate a bias against men.
• I don't accept anyone's authority, except my Domme's, of course.
• I hate [insert famous women we typically think of as strong and pro-equal rights] and the way they use their fame/power to influence women.
• My female boss (or whoever) is against me because I'm a white male.

I have a male pyl, but I haven't asked him his views on this. But... I believe some of it to be true. Mostly the way that society is anti-male and pro-female in some ways.

Yes, I do agree that the feminist movement was needed, but who has more gender freedom now? I see women dressing in baggy pants, tight pants, skirts, etc, but what do I see men in? Pants. There's a whole list of things that I can't think of right now, but I'll come back with it...

 

[SweetErika]

I have a male pyl, but I haven't asked him his views on this. But... I believe some of it to be true. Mostly the way that society is anti-male and pro-female in some ways.

If you or he have the chance, I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts.

Yes, I do agree that the feminist movement was needed, but who has more gender freedom now? I see women dressing in baggy pants, tight pants, skirts, etc, but what do I see men in? Pants. There's a whole list of things that I can't think of right now, but I'll come back with it...

I see it as fairly equal; there are advantages and disadvantages for each gender, though all of the specifics and this argument may be more pertinent to other threads.

 

[Netzach]

I've been around more male subs than I can count. A lot *do* have those attitudes, but I find them exceptionally common among middle aged white guys. In fact I can count on knowing more about those than whether the guy's a top or bottom within a few minutes of dialogue.

My H is about as progressive as they come and wistful about the Great Society concept. He definitely doesn't think the feminist program is over and definitely sees being a white middle aged middle class male as anything but a liability in the culture. Frankly if I'm going to spend a lot of time around a guy he'd probably better hold this kind of opinion on race class gender stuff or the annoyance levels are going to become an issue.

Are men screwed by feminism? Not in my opinion, men are scewed by sexism and the fact that nobody thought of anything adequate to *replace it with.*

I've heard H complain more about struggling for acceptance among fsubs at events than anything else - feeling like the one guy at yoga class.

 

[stlpenguin]

I'm not entirely certain that I'd say I feel 'opressed' by women, but I think I generally fall into your "sub male that feels inferior to women" model.

Mainly, I find that men are dull, dim-witted, violent, and lack much of a sexual identity other than being a biological dildo for women.

Here's my thing - someone touched on this exact point earlier - women are so diverse, so free, and so interesting. They have things that define them as women... If I were to say "nylons" or "skirt" or "high heels" to you, you'd think "women's clothes." If I said "pants" or "shirt" ... even "suit," you still wouldn't know what gender I was implying. Yet that's all us men have. Everything we have, we share with women. Yet women have this whole other realm of identity all to themselves. For some reason, society backs this with every step. If a woman wears pants and sneakers and a button-down shirt with a tie to her workplace, she'd be thought of as stylish. If a man wore a nice skirt, nylons, and a sensible pair of high heels, he'd be sent home to change at best, fired at worst, and snickered at and whispered about and scorned for being "weird."

Another thing... when was the last time a man needed an escort to his car at night, because he was afraid of women? When was the last time a woman forcefully raped a man at gunpoint? These are the things my gender is known for. Women carry pepper spray and take self defense classes because of my gender. It feels so great to be feared by an entire gender. :\

Women have this inherent sexuality to them. Their makeup, their clothes... sexy is more or less the norm for them. Even their sensible business attire has a certain allure to it. Men ... well... men have shirts. And pants. And shoes. ....*yawn* Goddess, I'm boring myself to sleep just describing it!

Women also enjoy far more sexual freedom than men do. If a man is discovered to have sex toys, he's thought of as a bit of a pervert. Women, on the other hand, openly have shops for all sorts of toys of all shapes, sizes, and styles. In fact, I sense there's a bit of an attitude that all women "need" such implements, because "a girl's got needs, you know." Yet a guy jerking off with a flesh-light or a butt plug in his ass is "just sick." In fact, guys perpetuate this one worse than the women do. A guy will be the first to ridicule another guy for using toys, but will think a woman's sizable dildo collection is hot.

As for sexism, I don't believe there's an active anti-men campaign going on out there, but sometimes it's difficult to miss when it pops its head up. The biggest offenders are sitcoms and advertising... So pretty much half of pop culture. Watch commercials tonight, and look for the cleaning products, the mini-van commercials, any food commercials for family-type dinners, and sometimes laundry commercials. There are others, but these are the big ones. Note how often an "amusing anecdote" is used to advertise a product swooping in to save the day... and note that the setup is, "Man fucks situation up, woman applies product to situation and fixes it because man is too stupid to figure it out." Note how many feature the dunderhead man as being fat, old, bald, and clueless. Note how many feature the woman saying something like, "Don't worry, hon. I'LL fix it" or something else entirely patronizing while the guy sits there and looks stupified. The same goes with the plots of most sitcoms - note how many feature a man fucking something up, and the women coming in to get the clueless man back on track.

... and wow, I just realized that a few passing thoughts rolled into a rant. My apologies. Thanks for reading.

-- Penguin

 

[Shankara20]

... and wow, I just realized that a few passing thoughts rolled into a rant. My apologies. Thanks for reading.

-- Penguin

Well stated and captured my initial thoughts on the subject. Give a little more coffee I might have a few points to post.

Shank

 

[JMohegan]

When was the last time that a woman with "traditional male" personal grooming choices (no makeup, no stylish haircut, and no shaving anything below the neck) was held up in our society as a vision of sexiness?

As for commercials, check out the beer ads with ditzy females hanging all over the men, or mud wrestling for their amusement. Check out the car commercials with a vacuous babe draped over the hood... yeah, buddy! Buy one and you'll be able to snag the other one, too.

And how about films. Ever noticed how often men in their 40's, 50's, or even 60's get romantically paired up with beautiful women half their age? Does this happen in reverse? Only very, very rarely. And when it does, that's a key part of The Story.

George Clooney,45, was just named Sexiest Man Alive by People magazine. Harrison Ford got the same nod at 56. Sean Connery got it at 59. Can anyone point to similar media recognition granted to attractive women of those ages?

Mainly, I find that men are dull, dim-witted, violent, and lack much of a sexual identity other than being a biological dildo for women.

Looking around at much of media and popular culture, I'd say that women are expected to be beautiful, slender creatures who spend extraordinary amounts of time and money on fashion, hair care, hair removal, and the application of makeup. And they're put out to pasture (sexually speaking) by 30 or at the very latest, 35.

I'm not trying to minimize your grievances here, stlpenguin. I think you've made some excellent points. But it's all in how you look at it, don't you think?

The problem I perceive in our society today is not misandry so much as myopia. There is very little diversity in what is considered sexy by the mainstream, and very low tolerance for sexual behavior that doesn't fit the norm.

 

[shy slave]

Reading penguin and JM's posts I agree with both of them.

Having brought up two boys I really can see that boys lack an array of role models compared with girls.

Girls seem to be given the belief they can 'be anything' whereas boys are fed the stereotype as seen in many sitcoms.

Erika, there are several sub pyls at my local munch who fit into all or some of the comments you state.

Personally it drives me crazy, those type of people are labelled 'Poor Me's' within our group and are avoided my many, which only increases their comments.

Something that they seem to have in common is that they are quieter and appear more submissive in day-to-day life. Often being overlooked in the job market and other competetive areas. Whereas very few of the submissive women in the group are submissive in day-to-day life.

I should add that not all the sub men I know are like this, some are pretty assertive and don't seem to have the same kind of issues.
Sadly they rarely attend any munches or parties.

 

[stlpenguin]

When was the last time that a woman with "traditional male" personal grooming choices (no makeup, no stylish haircut, and no shaving anything below the neck) was held up in our society as a vision of sexiness?[//QUOTE]

True enough. I'll yield to this one.

As for commercials, check out the beer ads with ditzy females hanging all over the men, or mud wrestling for their amusement. Check out the car commercials with a vacuous babe draped over the hood... yeah, buddy! Buy one and you'll be able to snag the other one, too.

Is it pathetic that women are used in this way? Or is it pathetic that it's expected that we're dimwitted enough that this ploy of dangling something shiny in our faces will actually work to get us to buy a car?

... Or is it even MORE pathetic that it works?

And how about films. Ever noticed how often men in their 40's, 50's, or even 60's get romantically paired up with beautiful women half their age? Does this happen in reverse? Only very, very rarely. And when it does, that's a key part of The Story.

George Clooney,45, was just named Sexiest Man Alive by People magazine. Harrison Ford got the same nod at 56. Sean Connery got it at 59. Can anyone point to similar media recognition granted to attractive women of those ages?

I actually count this more to women's credit, rather than detriment. Women are able to look past physical attractiveness. Ask a woman what she finds attractive in a man - any woman. I'll put money on it that her answer will be, "It's not always physical..." or "It's different for every guy." or something ambiguous along those lines. Women don't have a clearly defined picture of what is attractive in men. Even ugly old guys can be sexy. Men need a perfect 10 body with ruby lips and a blond bombshell mop on the head to get a boner. It speaks lowly of us, frankly.

Looking around at much of media and popular culture, I'd say that women are expected to be beautiful, slender creatures who spend extraordinary amounts of time and money on fashion, hair care, hair removal, and the application of makeup. And they're put out to pasture (sexually speaking) by 30 or at the very latest, 35.

An excellent point - I'd dare say, the best counter to my argument I've ever heard. Physical beauty isn't easy. Being a male sub and part-time crossdresser (as if you couldn't tell I aspire to be feminine ) I understand this. But the drawing factor for me is that women actually CAN be sexy and attractive. There's a certain art to feminine beauty that's exotic and entirely their own. Men.... well.... we just kinda come out looking like clones in suits. Our only real variety is "what color tie do we want to wear today?" Easier than hours of shaving and makeup? Sure. Boring and utterly unattractive? Absolutely. No wonders women don't find us sexy for our looks.

I'm not trying to minimize your grievances here, stlpenguin. I think you've made some excellent points. But it's all in how you look at it, don't you think?

And you as well. I love a great argument when it's kept civil. Thank you for that. There's no substitute for intelligent discourse.

The problem I perceive in our society today is not misandry so much as myopia. There is very little diversity in what is considered sexy by the mainstream, and very low tolerance for sexual behavior that doesn't fit the norm.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Xelebes]

I haven't seen the bias. Maybe I'm not jaded enough. Someone quick! Help me become jaded!

 

[Kajira Callista]

I haven't seen the bias. Maybe I'm not jaded enough. Someone quick! Help me become jaded!

*paints you green*

 

[SweetErika]

Wow...excellent points from everyone! Thank you all for taking the time to share your perspectives and experiences on this so far.

I've been around more male subs than I can count. A lot *do* have those attitudes, but I find them exceptionally common among middle aged white guys. In fact I can count on knowing more about those than whether the guy's a top or bottom within a few minutes of dialogue.

Yes, the men I've heard these things from definitely fall into that category as well. One has talked at length about how disadvantaged he feels as a middle aged white guy and unfair rules and things like diversity training are because they're only aimed at his type.

He definitely doesn't think the feminist program is over and definitely sees being a white middle aged middle class male as anything but a liability in the culture. Frankly if I'm going to spend a lot of time around a guy he'd probably better hold this kind of opinion on race class gender stuff or the annoyance levels are going to become an issue.

Agreed. The opinion doesn't bother me, but the whole 'I'm a victim' mentality (in anyone) does. I was asking my husband about this, and he feels in some ways he is disadvantaged/discriminated against as a white male and submissive, but he doesn't express the opinion that there's this overwhelming force against him or make and act on assumptions that everything's automatically unfair.

Balance and making rational judgements based on individual people/situations is definitely the key to not irritating the hell out of me on this and every other issue.

Erika, there are several sub pyls at my local munch who fit into all or some of the comments you state.

Personally it drives me crazy, those type of people are labelled 'Poor Me's' within our group and are avoided my many, which only increases their comments.

Something that they seem to have in common is that they are quieter and appear more submissive in day-to-day life. Often being overlooked in the job market and other competetive areas.

Interesting, and I think these are good observations. I've noticed the self-fulfilling prophecy factor, too, but hadn't made the connection between appearing submissive in general and this attitude, but it certainly makes sense that being overlooked in competitive areas adds to/reinforces their perception of discrimination/unfairness. Maybe that's kind of where it all started?

I also found it interesting that the men in I've met who have most prominently displayed this attitude were consciously rebelling against things like mainstream politics and religion. They were raised in very conservative, fundamentalist Christian environments with at least one extremely controlling role model, a lot of dysfunction, and have said they now feel it was a form of abuse. It could be conincidence, but the similarities are absolutely striking...

An excellent point - I'd dare say, the best counter to my argument I've ever heard. Physical beauty isn't easy. Being a male sub and part-time crossdresser (as if you couldn't tell I aspire to be feminine ) I understand this. But the drawing factor for me is that women actually CAN be sexy and attractive. There's a certain art to feminine beauty that's exotic and entirely their own. Men.... well.... we just kinda come out looking like clones in suits. Our only real variety is "what color tie do we want to wear today?" Easier than hours of shaving and makeup? Sure. Boring and utterly unattractive? Absolutely. No wonders women don't find us sexy for our looks.

I'm glad you chimed in on this thread, penguin, as it's helped me to understand a bit better.

I disagree with a lot of the generalizations you've made, though I certainly realize they're your perspectives/opinions, and as a woman and different person, I'll never truly understand quite where you're coming from. You might be interested to know though that I've never thought men looked like clones, were boring, unattractive (much less "utterly"), and I do find their appearances sexy in many cases. I've never heard other women express anything different. Sure, people don't say everything they think, but there must be some, if not many, women who share my beliefs.

So, here's my question, directed at no one in particular: If these men believe they're at a disadvantage and it's unfair that women have it so much better, could being submissive to women strengthen that perception and make it feel even more unfair?

I get the impression some submissive men are saying something akin to, "Women are superior lives and I want to treat some of them like they're superior, but it's incredibly unfair that they have all of these advantages," essentially reinforcing what they're claiming to hate, and that's confusing to me. If I'm not completely off-base, maybe someone could shed some light on it?

 

[Netzach]

Wow...excellent points from everyone! Thank you all for taking the time to share your perspectives and experiences on this so far.
Yes, the men I've heard these things from definitely fall into that category as well. One has talked at length about how disadvantaged he feels as a middle aged white guy and unfair rules and things like diversity training are because they're only aimed at his type.

Agreed. The opinion doesn't bother me, but the whole 'I'm a victim' mentality (in anyone) does. I was asking my husband about this, and he feels in some ways he is disadvantaged/discriminated against as a white male and submissive, but he doesn't express the opinion that there's this overwhelming force against him or make and act on assumptions that everything's automatically unfair.

Balance and making rational judgements based on individual people/situations is definitely the key to not irritating the hell out of me on this and every other issue.

Interesting, and I think these are good observations. I've noticed the self-fulfilling prophecy factor, too, but hadn't made the connection between appearing submissive in general and this attitude, but it certainly makes sense that being overlooked in competitive areas adds to/reinforces their perception of discrimination/unfairness. Maybe that's kind of where it all started?

I also found it interesting that the men in I've met who have most prominently displayed this attitude were consciously rebelling against things like mainstream politics and religion. They were raised in very conservative, fundamentalist Christian environments with at least one extremely controlling role model, a lot of dysfunction, and have said they now feel it was a form of abuse. It could be conincidence, but the similarities are absolutely striking...

I'm glad you chimed in on this thread, penguin, as it's helped me to understand a bit better.

I disagree with a lot of the generalizations you've made, though I certainly realize they're your perspectives/opinions, and as a woman and different person, I'll never truly understand quite where you're coming from. You might be interested to know though that I've never thought men looked like clones, were boring, unattractive (much less "utterly"), and I do find their appearances sexy in many cases. I've never heard other women express anything different. Sure, people don't say everything they think, but there must be some, if not many, women who share my beliefs.

So, here's my question, directed at no one in particular: If these men believe they're at a disadvantage and it's unfair that women have it so much better, could being submissive to women strengthen that perception and make it feel even more unfair?

I get the impression some submissive men are saying something akin to, "Women are superior lives and I want to treat some of them like they're superior, but it's incredibly unfair that they have all of these advantages," essentially reinforcing what they're claiming to hate, and that's confusing to me. If I'm not completely off-base, maybe someone could shed some light on it?

OHHHH!

You're discovering that a guy can be submissively kinked and STILL a totally chauvenistic butt. Some of the most chauvenistic men I've met are "female supremacists." The whole definition of femininity as these guys invent it revolves around Mom, Virgin, Whore, and Witch - isn't this the menu I've been trying to get expanded for millenia?

Yeah. I've found a large subsection of the submale populace has these really um, interesting notions of female "privilege" based on what their dicks would like to actually happen, a world filled with sexually aggressive women in heels who all hold the pussy power. Don't get me wrong, I like that too, but let's not let it intrude on the reality we live with.

I don't see the ability to wear makeup and a dress as this giant liberation, I would think making a buck for a buck and not 70 cents would be more of an actual gain, or living in a world where most women worldwide are not in poverty and illiterate. That would feel like progress.

 

[Netzach]

Erika, there are several sub pyls at my local munch who fit into all or some of the comments you state.

Personally it drives me crazy, those type of people are labelled 'Poor Me's' within our group and are avoided my many, which only increases their comments.

Something that they seem to have in common is that they are quieter and appear more submissive in day-to-day life. Often being overlooked in the job market and other competetive areas. Whereas very few of the submissive women in the group are submissive in day-to-day life.

Weird, the guys with the biggest beefs against feminism/aff action/whatever they have it in for me blah blah in my neck of the woods ID as Dominant. Although they tend to come across as anything but, more annoying bloviators with a complex.

 

[ntp]

.....

 

[shy slave]

Weird, the guys with the biggest beefs against feminism/aff action/whatever they have it in for me blah blah in my neck of the woods ID as Dominant. Although they tend to come across as anything but, more annoying bloviators with a complex.

I guess idiots turn up in every guise.

Have met more than a few men who were anti fem but never viewed them as Dominant, even those who claimed they were; I saw them more as short sighted pricks who were easily ignored.

 

[JMohegan]

I guess I'm trying to figure out if there might be some kind of a pattern/commonality here, or if my encounters with this type of mindset in male subs are just pure coincidence. Or, if perhaps male pyls are more likely to have these types of beliefs - are they something the male pyl psyche in general is attracted to, or are men with this mindset more likely to have submissive tendencies?

Some guys bemoan the fact that cross-dressing is not considered legitimately sexy by mainstream society. Compare their complaints to those that might be uttered by a very heavy 20-something, or a woman of 55. I personally do not see a difference in the essence of their beef, and have no basis for stating that the percentage of those complaining is any higher in one group than another.

Some guys complain about "feminism/aff action/whatever", but these complaints cut across any lines having anything to do with anybody's sexuality. IMO it has more to do with economic frustration than anything else.

Netzach mentioned "a large subsection of the submale populace has these really um, interesting notions of female 'privilege' based on what their dicks would like to actually happen, a world filled with sexually aggressive women in heels who all hold the pussy power." A similarly distorted world view from the other side of the coin is the idea expressed by many Doms that feminism went beyond the laudable goal of giving Netzach the right to wield her whip and destroyed the natural order of things for everyone else. These guys employ a divine right to rule sort of philosophy, borne of the idea that most women would prefer to submit, and most men want them to do so.

The bottom line: IMO there is nothing inherent in male submissives that makes them more inclined to "have these types of beliefs" than anyone else who is marginalized or economically frustrated or prone to distorted world views.

 

[firefly03k64]

Sorry

to interupt with a question. I have seen it here on lit boards and tried to figure it out myself, but no luck.

What does pyl(s) stand for?

Thank you.

 

[SweetErika]

to interupt with a question. I have seen it here on lit boards and tried to figure it out myself, but no luck.

What does pyl(s) stand for?

Thank you.

pyl= pick your label = sub/slave/bottom/etc.

PYL= Dom(me)/Master/Mistress/Top/etc.

In other words, they're kind of catch-all terms for roles in D/s.

 

[SweetErika]

The bottom line: IMO there is nothing inherent in male submissives that makes them more inclined to "have these types of beliefs" than anyone else who is marginalized or economically frustrated or prone to distorted world views.

That makes a lot of sense.

I still won't be able to help asking my date about his views on the subject today. Let's hope he has a reasonable world view, as we look pretty compatible on paper.

 

[JMohegan]

That makes a lot of sense.

I still won't be able to help asking my date about his views on the subject today. Let's hope he has a reasonable world view, as we look pretty compatible on paper.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[firefly03k64]

pyl= pick your label = sub/slave/bottom/etc.

PYL= Dom(me)/Master/Mistress/Top/etc.

In other words, they're kind of catch-all terms for roles in D/s.

Thank you SweetErika.

Guess I'd be a "bottom, sub, little girl," etc.. then. Good to know.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't see the ability to wear makeup and a dress as this giant liberation, I would think making a buck for a buck and not 70 cents would be more of an actual gain, or living in a world where most women worldwide are not in poverty and illiterate. That would feel like progress.

Thank you! I think I'm officially in love with you after this statement. It's something I've been bitching about for years, and I'm only 22 years old!

 

[jadefirefly]

Oh no... oh no, oh no, oh no... curse you, JM and penguin! You've confused me! I can see both sides of the argument, it's like those black and white pictures of vases that suddenly turn into faces!



In seriousness now, all I wanted to say was, you've both got fantastic points. I read penguins post first ('cos it came first) and was nodding my head the whole time... and then along comes JM, and my brain starts doing somersaults.

And all the more, I love that it's not deteriorated into poo-flinging. You guys are awesome!


.... and now I'll stop taking up space, since I really have nothing actually useful to contribute to the discussion.

 

[stlpenguin]

Oh no... oh no, oh no, oh no... curse you, JM and penguin! You've confused me! I can see both sides of the argument, it's like those black and white pictures of vases that suddenly turn into faces!



In seriousness now, all I wanted to say was, you've both got fantastic points. I read penguins post first ('cos it came first) and was nodding my head the whole time... and then along comes JM, and my brain starts doing somersaults.

And all the more, I love that it's not deteriorated into poo-flinging. You guys are awesome!

Thank you, Firefly. That's very sweet of you. I greatly appreciate that this can remain civil as well.

With regards to women finding men attractive physically (I apologize, I forgot who mentioned it) I have never once dated a woman that said she thought I was physically attractive. In fact, I've dated more than one woman that has actively DODGED the question of whether she finds me physically attractive. The usual response was, "Er... well... I don't really look at appearances. I love you for who you are." Translation : No, you're not attractive. But you're funny and polite, so I'll keep you around a little longer. I'm sure this personal sampling of the female populace has skewed my perception of the entire gender... but any of the questioning I've done of women afterwards on the subject has only supported this perception. Is there, perhaps, some taboo among women to saying a man is hot looking?

I don't generally believe that skirts make you any more sexually liberated, per se... It simply allows you to exercise more options. Feminine clothing doesn't make you more empowered, but lack of any form of defining male attire makes us LESS empowered as men, as I see it.

My wife and I were discussing this last night after she read my post here. I had to explain it to her, as she got the impression that I felt inferior to her in the relationship. I assured her this was not the case... but I still feel inferior to women in general. I don't see women as BETTER than men, necessarily... just ... more defined, I guess. Guys seem to know exactly what the DON'T want to be. Guys don't touch, hug, or even sit next to one another or you "might be gay, dude!" Girls are comfortable holding hands and kissing one another (chastely, not sexually) when they greet one another. It's like women have no fear of being anything they want to be. They wear whatever they think is comfortable or attractive with absolutely no stigmas... they really DO have ultimate freedom in society. Or at least far more freedom socially then I will ever experience as a man.

Now, to draw that into my own personal sexuality (as I can't speak for other male pyls) I crossdress not because I wish others to find me attractive as such. I get just as much gratification from dressing alone as I do in front of my wife... actually, MORE gratification alone, since I don't feel self-conscious. But in feeling feminine, I feel more free. I feel physically sexy, because femininity is what I find sexy. I simply cannot fathom my male form as attractive or desirable. I am naturally submissive, though - it has little to do with how I feel about women. Mostly, it makes me feel good to do as another asks in bed, because if they tell me exactly what they want, I know I'm doing what they want me to do. To me, submissiveness is like being a chef in a restaurant : if you tell the chef "make whatever, I don't care." then you're probably not going to be happy with your meal, or at best, it just won't be what you're in the mood for. The odds are against you. But if you're in the mood for french onion soup and a steak medium rare... and you ORDER french onion soup and a mid-rare steak, you'll be happy as long as that's what the chef actually makes. If my wife orders me to go down on her, I know she wants oral. And when I do, and she has a good time, I know I did that. Mission accomplished. It has nothing to do with loving or hating women, for me at least.

-- Penguin